Miss Universe Canada yanks transgendered contestant from pageant

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Sounds fine to me. I have no beef with transgendered, but sorry, I'll never consider them anything other than their born gender... something about X and Y chromosomes.

That's not understanding the issue of transgendered people. Do more research.
 

Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
0
Changing the rules in the middle of the competition to allow Talackova to stay would not be fair for other transwomen who, unlike Talackova, knew and respected the rules and thus did not enter.

Why the rules specify "naturally born" in the first place is a WTF though. They allow plastic surgery, so clearly they don't give a crap about "natural". I certainly think the organization would make a mistake if they didn't wipe out the rule for next year, and get all the free publicity from this.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
This is a gray area for me.

On the one hand, transgendered people have more than enough they go through already that they don't deserve bigotry causing more problems.

They're women (in this case). That doens't mean you have to want to date a transgendered person at all; but don't treat them hatefully, either.

I support their rights as women - but isn't the tournament such a right? Well, a beauty pageant is a pretty specific situation, enough about the sexual attractiveness of the contestants, however much they want to deny that, that it seems a legitimate 'exception' issue to let them rule out transgender competitors because it's such an issue for so much of the audience.

These issues get tricky. Let's say a restaurant has a lot of racist customers so that the business is legally required to hire black waitresses - but customers stop coming over it.

The business is expected to just 'go out of business' over it rather than cater to the racial whims of the customers. And I think there's good reason for that.

And that is dangerously close to conradicting my statement on the pageant, where I have to split hairs between waitresses and beauty contestants.

On the other hand, Hooters I assume is allowed to discriminate by hiring pretty female waitresses because it's such a part of their business model. Try splitting that hair.

Bottom line is that it's not always easy to have a near clean rule - going either way can cause harm in one way or another. 'Judgement' being the rule allows for mistake as well.

It's a good example where public policy isn't always easy, trying to do the right thing.

Bottom line: transgedered women are not women, exactly. They are transgendered women. The question is where that distinction has any relevance.

Dating? Sure, by individual. Most areas? No way. A beauty pageant in around the line with arguments both ways, where I just lean towards it being one of the few areas to allow the distinction to deny them a right. It's a tough call. Let's not even get into a 'Miss White America Pageant'... trying to explain why Miss America has to be inclusive, Miss White America isn't ok, and Miss Black America is ok. There are reasons, but it's another tricky situation.

(And frankly, as the American population grows less white, as a Miss White America pageant would be less about racism and exclusion than simply in the same spirit as Miss Black America, it might even become more acceptable. For the time being, a double standard is allowed because the history of discrimination calls for some slack. The 'Miss America' should always be inclusive, though. And I'd like to see a time transgendered women are allowed, because the society treats them equally as women.)
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
A little history:

Miss America Pageant created 1921.

Blacks first contestants in the 1970's.

Blacks appeared in a musical act in 1923 in the show - in the role of slaves. Classy.

Society might have a lot of adjusting to get used to transgendered people more, just as they did for blacks. Be nice if it happened more quickly.
 

Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
0
These issues get tricky. Let's say a restaurant has a lot of racist customers so that the business is legally required to hire black waitresses - but customers stop coming over it.

The business is expected to just 'go out of business' over it rather than cater to the racial whims of the customers. And I think there's good reason for that.
I think that's bullshit as well. There should be no more obligation for an employer to hire any person than there is for that person to work for that employer, or for a customer to frequent that business.

The restaurant example is illustrative. The law punishes a non-racist business owner for the racism of her clientele. If the government drives the non-racist business owner out of business due to "discrimination", she won't be around to hire anyone, and job market becomes worse for people of any color, including the black cooks and other staff she might have been able to hire. Meanwhile, business owners who are racist can discriminate as long as they aren't stupid about it and find legal excuses.

Freely choosing whom you associate with, work for, hire, patronize, etc. is how people of a free and civilized society can promote and express their individual morality without stepping on others' rights. Take that away, and you'll find people start resorting to force.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
That's not understanding the issue of transgendered people. Do more research.

whats not to understand? they are transgender, not the gender they claim, they can live with the "lie" if it helps them to get by, but the rest of us don't have to buy into it.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
I think that's bullshit as well. There should be no more obligation for an employer to hire any person than there is for that person to work for that employer, or for a customer to frequent that business.

The restaurant example is illustrative. The law punishes a non-racist business owner for the racism of her clientele. If the government drives the non-racist business owner out of business due to "discrimination", she won't be around to hire anyone, and job market becomes worse for people of any color, including the black cooks and other staff she might have been able to hire. Meanwhile, business owners who are racist can discriminate as long as they aren't stupid about it and find legal excuses.

Freely choosing whom you associate with, work for, hire, patronize, etc. is how people of a free and civilized society can promote and express their individual morality without stepping on others' rights. Take that away, and you'll find people start resorting to force.

I think that's wrong and don't feel like getting into the lengthy discussion. I think it's better the law ban discrimination. That leads to a less racist society - as it has.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
whats not to understand? they are transgender, not the gender they claim, they can live with the "lie" if it helps them to get by, but the rest of us don't have to buy into it.

Why do you say I need to learn more about gays? They choose to be attracted to the same sex, and that's all there is to the issue.
 

dennilfloss

Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
Oct 21, 1999
30,549
12
0
dennilfloss.blogspot.com
Guys like Donald Trump and the rest of Miss Universe officials & sponsors are so chauvinistic and it's as if they feel threatened by transgendered individuals, like they're afraid they'll pick one up one day in a bar and be revealed the XY bits the morning after a night of passion. I have news for them and others of their ilk: if it looks, feels, tastes, smells, thinks and acts like a beautiful woman, it is a beautiful woman in all that matters. You make love to a person, not to chromosomes. Plus chromosomes are not the only components of gender and they fall along a continuum with many variations, not just XX & XY. The simple taxonomy we use by creating the categories man & woman is a creation of our mind to simplify our world view and for communication purposes. Because we created two nice little boxes to classify humans as either man or woman doesn't mean nature has to fit nicely in our little systematic scheme. This is a philosophical and practical problem we encounter quite often in systematics & classification, particularly systematic biology. The human mind is geared towards seeing patterns and searching simpler explanations and constructs to explain the seeming chaos and grandeur of the universe, to make comparisons tractable. Unfortunately for our little minds, the universe doesn't have to play balls by our rules and there is a lot more grey than black & white (just consider how quantum mechanics conflicts with our everyday macroscopic worldview and experience for example).
 
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Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,752
4,562
136
It's not that they have anything against transgendered folks. It's just that the rules they went out of their way to write to discriminate against them have to be obeyed. Their hands are tied!
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
A little history:

Miss America Pageant created 1921.

Blacks first contestants in the 1970's.

Blacks appeared in a musical act in 1923 in the show - in the role of slaves. Classy.

Society might have a lot of adjusting to get used to transgendered people more, just as they did for blacks. Be nice if it happened more quickly.

anandtech 2012 you can call black kids who were shot "hoodrats" "coons" etc and make such ouldandish claims as "ghetto stomp" is the prefered way "hoodrats" kill someone.

one step foreword..one step back.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
For you people who say since this person is XY then they are male. What gender is someone who has XX/XY Chimerism. Where some cells are XX and some cells are XY. This is a real condition, these people can be born with both testicle and ovary. They could have a penis and a fallopian tube.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
3
81
For you people who say since this person is XY then they are male. What gender is someone who has XX/XY Chimerism. Where some cells are XX and some cells are XY. This is a real condition, these people can be born with both testicle and ovary. They could have a penis and a fallopian tube.

People would rather keep hating than think rationally.
 

brainhulk

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2007
9,418
454
126
For you people who say since this person is XY then they are male. What gender is someone who has XX/XY Chimerism. Where some cells are XX and some cells are XY. This is a real condition, these people can be born with both testicle and ovary. They could have a penis and a fallopian tube.

i wonder what would happen if such a person accidently impregnates herself while fapping
 

SKORPI0

Lifer
Jan 18, 2000
18,431
2,347
136
I heard that she swapped parts with this guy. Maybe they should hook up together. :biggrin:



 
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