Missouri Police Officer guns down unarmed 18 year old

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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Fire 4-6 shots rapidly, reassess threat and your back/6, brown still charging, fire again.

This is a typical training drill. Or the other one.

Mag dump, watch 6, reload, reassess.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
Just a few possible problems with the audio recording.
1) Why did it only now come out
2) How will they authenticate it, is it even possible
3) Any chance some of the shots are echos
4) Strange that the guy talks right over the shots like nothing happened

As always, the most interesting fact is how both sides view the same piece of possible evidence, completely differently.

The guy who recorded it has a lawyer, for some reason...I'd imagine he thought it was firecrackers or something like that, fireworks are legal in Missouri.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
Sure did, shooting took a total of 10 seconds. There was one volley, a wait of 4 seconds and then another volley. Murder in the 1st degree, absolutely no doubt. There is your smoking gun. This blows up the lies we have been receiving from the Ferguson police department for the past few weeks. I can't believe that I bought them for awhile. I hope they got some testimony under oath so we can get some of these corrupt fuckers for lying under oath.

There is no way he charged that cop. No charge takes 10 seconds (thats a fucking hundred yard dash). Somebody had it computed at 1 or 2 seconds at most.

Some of the fastest guys in the NFL took over 4 seconds to cover 40 yards = http://wallstcheatsheet.com/sports/11-fastest-40-yard-dashes-in-nfl-history.html/?a=viewall


MB (300 lbs) ain't one of them, ever. :whiste:
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
You people are so thick I have to repeat myself. The video caught Brown shoving the clerk not taking the cigars w/o paying.

I was directly refuting someone here making shit up. Again the video did not record Brown stealing the cigars.

That was my main point lying makes getting to the truth harder

No, you're the one that is so thick. Why would the clerk attempt to stop him if he paid for the cigars? Had MB lived he would be looking at strong-arm robbery charges.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
You people are so thick I have to repeat myself. The video caught Brown shoving the clerk not taking the cigars w/o paying.

I was directly refuting someone here making shit up. Again the video did not record Brown stealing the cigars.

That was my main point lying makes getting to the truth harder

You don't think Brown stole something after watching that video and seeing the police report detailing a strong armed robbery?
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
22,460
775
126
wait so why is this 100 yard dash shit even valid? Yes no 300lb man can run 100 yards in 10 seconds. But brown was like 25 feet away, a 300lb man could cover 25 feet in 10 seconds easy. So it's either

1. Brown didn't charge the officer or
2. Brown was actually 100 yards away, which if true the officer should be jailed for wreck-lessly discharging his firearm or something along those lines. You don't fucking shoot at people 100 yards away with a pistol.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,344
15,154
136
Not really. Even terms like "reasonable force" are defined elsewhere with examples sometimes of what is considered reasonable. You have to look at the glossary of definitions for most laws. When you've read enough law books, you get a feel usually for the language that laws are typically written in, although there are still surprises here and there.

Then there is case law and precedents to use to demonstrate applications of various laws per judicial rulings.

Still many laws are based upon fairly easily to follow and demonstrable logic. For example, if someone is stealing from someone else it is natural to realize that taking from another is wrong, thus against the law, and the person being stole from is going to do their best to prevent being stolen from, thus protection by the law for use of force.


For clarification I'm taking about interpretation of what a threat is. For example, in one of the scenarios there is a perceived threat that someone was walking towards their car for the purpose of keying it, how does the person know that's what is about to happen?

To relate it to this case. The clerk may have thought brown had stolen merchandise but that doesn't mean he did. Are store clerks allowed to stop people from leaving their store just because they think someone stole something or because someone might steal something despite not having seen the actual theft take place? There are lots of real world and anecdotal evidence why this is bad.

Anyway, it's neither here or there so no point in discussing this further, the law is the law.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,344
15,154
136
No, you're the one that is so thick. Why would the clerk attempt to stop him if he paid for the cigars? Had MB lived he would be looking at strong-arm robbery charges.

Because he thought brown was going to or he thought he did steal something. The tape isn't clear enough to be conclusive.
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
22,460
775
126
For clarification I'm taking about interpretation of what a threat is. For example, in one of the scenarios there is a perceived threat that someone was walking towards their car for the purpose of keying it, how does the person know that's what is about to happen?

To relate it to this case. The clerk may have thought brown had stolen merchandise but that doesn't mean he did. Are store clerks allowed to stop people from leaving their store just because they think someone stole something or because someone might steal something despite not having seen the actual theft take place? There are lots of real world and anecdotal evidence why this is bad.

Anyway, it's neither here or there so no point in discussing this further, the law is the law.

Depends on the state, I don't know about MO, but I work at a store in CA and I cannot detain a person leaving the store for any reason.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
You people are so thick I have to repeat myself. The video caught Brown shoving the clerk not taking the cigars w/o paying.

I was directly refuting someone here making shit up. Again the video did not record Brown stealing the cigars.

That was my main point lying makes getting to the truth harder

The video shows Brown putting boxes of cigars into his hands and the hands of his friend standing behind him. It doesn't show payment being made for those cigars at all. Brown's hands, and those of his friend does go towards the counter and maybe a payment was made, but it is impossible to see.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,344
15,154
136
Depends on the state, I don't know about MO, but I work at a store in CA and I cannot detain a person leaving the store for any reason.

Yes, that also added to my confusion but that's more of a company policy rather than the law.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
Depends on the state, I don't know about MO, but I work at a store in CA and I cannot detain a person leaving the store for any reason.

Legally you can, but by store policy you probably cannot without being fired. Most stores have policies that prevent the average non security employee from taking action against shoplifters.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
it kinda pisses me off that the Obama admin is sending people and getting involved in this. this is a local issue not a national one that the feds need to get involved with. Why did they not send a delegation to the funeral of Dillon Taylor who was a unarmed white kid gunned down by a black cop just days after Brown was shot?

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...lls-unarmed-white-youth-media-and-feds-silent
I think a lot of it is racial politics - Obama sees this as an issue he can use to get his base to hatin' (and votin').

Besides that, when a white cop kills an unarmed black teenager, a lot of black folks scream "racism". When a black cop kills an unarmed white teenager, most white folks say "dumb ass". This gives all politicians incentive to pay more lip service at the least to the former.

I saw news of this and thought WTF Charles? Though turns out at least 2 of the 3 are super understandable.
Yeah, it's mostly interesting in the juxtaposition.

That's because black people are more important than white people to a black president and AG. It's why he sent Holder out to meet with Nelly and the family.
While black people undoubtedly are more important than white people to Obama and Holder, I think a lot of it is explained by the relative political usefulness of the events. There is no political advantage to Obama bashing the cops over shooting an unarmed white teenager; there may be a political advantage to Obama in bashing the cops over shooting an unarmed black teenager.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,344
15,154
136
I think a lot of it is racial politics - Obama sees this as an issue he can use to get his base to hatin' (and votin').

Besides that, when a white cop kills an unarmed black teenager, a lot of black folks scream "racism". When a black cop kills an unarmed white teenager, most white folks say "dumb ass". This gives all politicians incentive to pay more lip service at the least to the former.


Yeah, it's mostly interesting in the juxtaposition.


While black people undoubtedly are more important than white people to Obama and Holder, I think a lot of it is explained by the relative political usefulness of the events. There is no political advantage to Obama bashing the cops over shooting an unarmed white teenager; there may be a political advantage to Obama in bashing the cops over shooting an unarmed black teenager.

Black leaders, including Obama, have gotten involved for a couple of reasons, first to give this general issue some national attention (I'm referring to police injustice), and to keep the situation calm. I have yet to see any black leader not call for a peaceful protest, have you?

To think this is to score political points is ridiculous and disgusting. If you want to see politicians using situations for political purposes I'll be happy to show you what that looks like.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
This is the best video I've seen to date:

http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nbc-news/see-surveillance-video-from-alleged-brown-robbery-318508099932

Is their audio? What is being said?

That is two out of the 3 cameras that were pointing at the scene during that time. Not sure why we don't have the 3rd camera angle yet.

Still, from what I saw, at no point does Brown reach into his pocket to pull out any form of payment. Nor does his friend. In fact, the first thing Brown does upon reaching the counter while waiting for the clerk to come behind the counter is clasp his empty hands behind his back. At that point in time we can see there is no payment in his hands at all. He looks to be handed 3 boxes of cigars by the clerk to which he hands those over to his friend behind him. Brown then reaches over the counter to snatch the cardboard box containing the cigar boxes and jerks that to him. Some of the cigar boxes go falling to the ground at that action. Brown places the cardboard box, which still contains a few cigar boxes, back upon the counter. His friend places the original cigar boxes Brown handed him back upon the counter as well. Brown then bends over to pick up all the cigar boxes that fell upon the floor into his hands. At that point he starts walking for the door.

From there you can see it does not look like his friend actually "stole" cigar boxes as he placed them back upon the counter. Doesn't mean he's not an accessory to any criminal activity that Brown may have done.

What I find strange is that upon jerking the cardboard box, The clerk starts walking to the door immediately. In fact, the clerk just walks in not so much of a hurry in front of Brown towards the door while Brown in the middle of picking up the fallen cigar boxes off the floor. This is a bit strange to me for the clerk to do that.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
More info on the murder shoot:


Forensic audio expert Paul Ginsberg analyzed the recording and said he detected at least 10 gunshots -- a cluster of six, followed by four.

"I was very concerned about that pause ... because it's not just the number of gunshots, it's how they're fired," the man's attorney, Lopa Blumenthal, told CNN's Don Lemon. "And that has a huge relevance on how this case might finally end up."
:
:
Attorney Chris Chestnut said he was surprised by the gap in shots.
"It's the pause that gives most concern in a police shooting, especially with an unarmed victim, because at this point Mr. Brown is defenseless -- he has no weapon," said Chestnut.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
wait so why is this 100 yard dash shit even valid? Yes no 300lb man can run 100 yards in 10 seconds. But brown was like 25 feet away, a 300lb man could cover 25 feet in 10 seconds easy. So it's either

1. Brown didn't charge the officer or
2. Brown was actually 100 yards away, which if true the officer should be jailed for wreck-lessly discharging his firearm or something along those lines. You don't fucking shoot at people 100 yards away with a pistol.

Possibility 3

Brown charged the officer who fires. Officer ceases fire but Brown rallies and continues causing the second volley.

That's not the only possible scenario, some of which may go for or either party. Everything will require explanation, but just a pattern of fire means little.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Why aren't you banned?
I'm guessing because he's too stupid to actually offend anybody. Shame, he used to be capable of rational thoughts.

On the plus side, he did man up and admit he was wrong. That gets him off my Ignore list.

Have any of you seen/heard that Wilson fired 10 or more shots at Brown in two volleys? There was a recording of it on CNN.
I heard that too. Not sure if it affects the murder case, although it may get Wilson in hot water as it could represent him shooting at Brown running away, followed by shooting at Brown facing him. Not sure if it affects the murder case because it could be interpreted as Wilson resuming fire because Brown turned and began charging or as Wilson pausing and then deciding to shoot the guy anyway, even though he's attempting to give up.

That is two out of the 3 cameras that were pointing at the scene during that time. Not sure why we don't have the 3rd camera angle yet.

Still, from what I saw, at no point does Brown reach into his pocket to pull out any form of payment. Nor does his friend. In fact, the first thing Brown does upon reaching the counter while waiting for the clerk to come behind the counter is clasp his empty hands behind his back. At that point in time we can see there is no payment in his hands at all. He looks to be handed 3 boxes of cigars by the clerk to which he hands those over to his friend behind him. Brown then reaches over the counter to snatch the cardboard box containing the cigar boxes and jerks that to him. Some of the cigar boxes go falling to the ground at that action. Brown places the cardboard box, which still contains a few cigar boxes, back upon the counter. His friend places the original cigar boxes Brown handed him back upon the counter as well. Brown then bends over to pick up all the cigar boxes that fell upon the floor into his hands. At that point he starts walking for the door.

From there you can see it does not look like his friend actually "stole" cigar boxes as he placed them back upon the counter. Doesn't mean he's not an accessory to any criminal activity that Brown may have done.

What I find strange is that upon jerking the cardboard box, The clerk starts walking to the door immediately. In fact, the clerk just walks in not so much of a hurry in front of Brown towards the door while Brown in the middle of picking up the fallen cigar boxes off the floor. This is a bit strange to me for the clerk to do that.
Story given was that the clerk was attempting to get past Brown and lock the door so that Brown couldn't leave with the stolen cigars. As with almost everything in this case, YMMV.
 

Druidx

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
2,971
0
76
I don’t think there are any definitive conclusions to be drawn from the pause but that won’t stop either side to characterize it completely differently.
One side will claim it was completely normal, the pause was to adjust his aim or to see if there was still a threat. While the other side will claim it as proof of cold blooded murder.

For my 2 cents, I don’t think people should read too much into what an AUDIO expect claims the pause means, that’s not his job or specialty.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
Why can't people acknowledge that the audio, if its even authentic, is just another red herring brought to you by the sensationalizing and instigating fuckups at CNN?

The shot count, the pause, the rate of fire or anything else on the recording changes absolutely nothing about the case given the information to date.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
Story given was that the clerk was attempting to get past Brown and lock the door so that Brown couldn't leave with the stolen cigars. As with almost everything in this case, YMMV.

If the clerk was trying to lock the door, why did he just saunter his way over to it? He could have easily made it to the door to lock it before Brown got near it from the relative actions both were taking. Even at the door the clerk's behavior is a bit strange if his intent was to lock and bar the door. Despite his saunter he slows down further to converse with Brown. Even slowing door he reaches the door first and still takes a moment to say something to Brown before reaching over to pull the door closed.

Even then it's hard to tell if he's actually trying to pull the door closed or keep it open. Because he initially just puts his hand on the door "bar" closet to where it swings open. Normally people put their hands there to keep a door open, and not close it from that spot. The reason he even closes the door because as his hand was there Brown shoves him. He grips the door bar to stay upright but the force of the shove while his hand is gripped on the bar forces the door closed. The clerk technically doesn't close the door, but Brown does because of the shove while the clerk has his hand on the door bar.

Yes the clerk has keys in his hand, but if he was going to lock the door to stop Brown from leaving, then why not reach for the door where the lock is at? That's what most people would do when attempting to close and then lock a door. Just seems strange to me.

*EDIT* actually I assumed keys in the clerk's hand because someone else previously in this thread mentioned they were there. I looked but could see no keys in clerk's hands at all.
 
Last edited:
Jan 25, 2011
16,634
8,778
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Why can't people acknowledge that the audio, if its even authentic, is just another red herring brought to you by the sensationalizing and instigating fuckups at CNN?

The shot count, the pause, the rate of fire or anything else on the recording changes absolutely nothing about the case given the information to date.

Some people get far too invested in a need to be right. Any info has to be shaped to fit that need. There's a clear loss of objectivity from many in these threads.
 
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