Missouri Police Officer guns down unarmed 18 year old

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TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
60
91
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Some people are a little more equal than others. But the reverse of that is true as well, some get caught up in a witch hunt because of their public position or wealth.

This case has been a witchhunt for Wilson based on lies.

I'm glad the system totally rejected it.

I think we can all agree by now that Michael brown was a complete asshole and probably a giant sociopath. It sucks when anybody dies, but I think a few less people are going to get hurt because he's gone. It takes a special kind of idiot to rob a convenient mart, for cigars, on camera, then walk out the door only to encounter a cop, who would have driven off had he not been given grief about a simple order, and proceed to try hulk smashing the cop to the point he puts you down like a rapid dog.
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Again, indictments have a 99%+ rate of coming back with a true bill, that is unless you are a cop, then it drops. You can't with any sort of straight face say that there is nothing wrong there. You also can't say with a straight face that Wilson's indictment was anything but normal. Nor can you say, unless you are completely ignorant on how indictments work, that a no indictment means wilson was found not guilty (and just to preempt the mischaracterizing of my position, it doesn't prove wilson was guilty either). Your line about not appeasing an angry mob is quite funny as that appears to be the reason why the prosecutor decided to even being an indictment charge in the first place.

So no, the justice system is not operating properly and this case was just another example of blind justice not really being blind.

While you worry about your own neighborhood getting torched or other neighborhoods, or while you concern yourself with people unlawfully destroying other people's property I'm am concerned about a justice system that isn't what it claims to be, blind and impartial. Why? Because I'm not dumb enough to not see what will happen if this injustice continues and it won't be black people you will have to be worried about, it will be white people, poor people, and a whole ton of other people who have been wronged because it's not only a race issue, that's simply only a component of it. What you and other conservative media heads keep thinking is an isolated incident that shouldn't be used as any sort of statement fail to see that ferguson is only a small piece of a much larger issue, an issue you apparently fail or are unwilling to acknowledge.

So that's where I'm coming from and while I value where you are coming from and I think it's noble, it's addressing a symptom not the root cause of the issue, which is what my concern is.

There is a time and place to discuss the statistics of the judicial system, but it is not within the context of this Ferguson situation, it just is not. It is too tainted.

To start off, a lot of people have special advantages within the field they work in, so the fact that statistics for police officers is different, does not surprise me. I've also been on a jury of a trial, what are you supposed to do? You do your best to treat the case based only on the evidence and circumstances that belong to that one situation. When making a decision on a case, we don't consult the statistical data based on demographics of the parties involved and swing the verdict so the stats become more alike with each other.


I'm going to divert for a moment. Some time ago I was listening to a guy's take on the Israel/Palestine conflict. The Palestinians elected an extremist group to lead them. They elected an extremist group because the Israelis did not work with prior moderate leadership. If the Israelis want a moderate leadership leading the Palestinian people, they have to reward them. The moderates have to be able to turn around and show the people they achieved progress, in order to maintain leadership. Israelis did not reward the moderates, so the people chose the extremists.

The violent rioters in Ferguson are extremists. Even Al Sharpton is an extremist. The media has created him as the leader of this movement in Ferguson, and many are following (like the statement put out by the Congressional Black Caucus, or the display by the StL Rams players Sunday). What these people, these groups are saying and doing, is a harsh insult to moderate whites.


The path towards a better future, in my opinion, we all have to reward what we want more of. Blacks must reward moderate whites, not insult them, nor reward extremist blacks. And whites must find ways to reward moderate blacks.

I've said some number of posts ago, the choice we have in Ferguson is a decision between supporting (1) a judicial system that had some flaws, or (2) violent rioters led by deceit and manipulation. The decision reached in the end I believe was the correct decision. I choose to reward the imperfect judicial system over the extremists.

How do I reward moderates trying to improve the systems? I honestly don't know. Maybe I need to look into it. Supporting destruction of Darren Wilson through every possible avenue is not the way to do it, that I am positive of. Hell, I was outraged at the O.J. civil suit verdict, it boggles my mind how a person found not guilty could still wind up in financial ruin over the incident.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Again, indictments have a 99%+ rate of coming back with a true bill, that is unless you are a cop, then it drops. You can't with any sort of straight face say that there is nothing wrong there. You also can't say with a straight face that Wilson's indictment was anything but normal. Nor can you say, unless you are completely ignorant on how indictments work, that a no indictment means wilson was found not guilty (and just to preempt the mischaracterizing of my position, it doesn't prove wilson was guilty either). Your line about not appeasing an angry mob is quite funny as that appears to be the reason why the prosecutor decided to even being an indictment charge in the first place.

So no, the justice system is not operating properly and this case was just another example of blind justice not really being blind.

While you worry about your own neighborhood getting torched or other neighborhoods, or while you concern yourself with people unlawfully destroying other people's property I'm am concerned about a justice system that isn't what it claims to be, blind and impartial. Why? Because I'm not dumb enough to not see what will happen if this injustice continues and it won't be black people you will have to be worried about, it will be white people, poor people, and a whole ton of other people who have been wronged because it's not only a race issue, that's simply only a component of it. What you and other conservative media heads keep thinking is an isolated incident that shouldn't be used as any sort of statement fail to see that ferguson is only a small piece of a much larger issue, an issue you apparently fail or are unwilling to acknowledge.

So that's where I'm coming from and while I value where you are coming from and I think it's noble, it's addressing a symptom not the root cause of the issue, which is what my concern is.

The root cause of the issue is Brown attacking Wilson then people burning down the town. I note with some amusement that one of the most hated people in the US by ThinkProgress is cited as their hero. The other thing is that police ought not hide details. Period. Does that matter? Nope, just don't argue for facts and fairness, just make the cop not get any.

Oh an amusing blurb

let me put his life in danger, but don't tell anyone where I live.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,344
15,154
136
This case has been a witchhunt for Wilson based on lies.

I'm glad the system totally rejected it.

I think we can all agree by now that Michael brown was a complete asshole and probably a giant sociopath. It sucks when anybody dies, but I think a few less people are going to get hurt because he's gone. It takes a special kind of idiot to rob a convenient mart, for cigars, on camera, then walk out the door only to encounter a cop, who would have driven off had he not been given grief about a simple order, and proceed to try hulk smashing the cop to the point he puts you down like a rapid dog.


I love your authoritative statement, "based on lies", and how you then go on to use your own "lies" to make your point. You've chosen to believe one witness, the only witness who tells the same story wilson told. This same witness who originally told police 48 hours after the incident that brown was on the side walk on the same side he was on, who then latter changed his story and said brown was in the street. This same witness, who 48 hours after the incident claimed he was about 100 yards from the scene, who then during the GJ testimony said he was 50-75 yards away. You've carefully constructed a caricature of brown based on one day in a persons life...sociopath? Lol! I assume you are an FBI profiler and you have been actively researching browns social media posts and interviewing his friends, family, teachers, etc, otherwise you know as well as I do, you are full of shit.

Having said that (and it's sad that I even have to explain this), that doesn't mean I think brown or wilson are innocent or guilty or someone's testimony is false or true, that's what a trial is for.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,344
15,154
136
Unfortunately history doesn't agree with you. There is a reason why the saying isn't, "the silent wheel gets the grease".

I wish cooler heads prevailed and reasonable solutions could be had by talking. It's laughably unrealistic, hell, are politicians can't even have a reasonable discussion with each other to come up with solutions and that's their whole job.


With regards to this not being the right time to discuss this, well I disagree and think that sort of thinking is bullshit. Again, reality rears it's ugly little head, without cooler heads coming together (as they rarely do), then the time to enact change is when people are the most involved.

There is a time and place to discuss the statistics of the judicial system, but it is not within the context of this Ferguson situation, it just is not. It is too tainted.

To start off, a lot of people have special advantages within the field they work in, so the fact that statistics for police officers is different, does not surprise me. I've also been on a jury of a trial, what are you supposed to do? You do your best to treat the case based only on the evidence and circumstances that belong to that one situation. When making a decision on a case, we don't consult the statistical data based on demographics of the parties involved and swing the verdict so the stats become more alike with each other.


I'm going to divert for a moment. Some time ago I was listening to a guy's take on the Israel/Palestine conflict. The Palestinians elected an extremist group to lead them. They elected an extremist group because the Israelis did not work with prior moderate leadership. If the Israelis want a moderate leadership leading the Palestinian people, they have to reward them. The moderates have to be able to turn around and show the people they achieved progress, in order to maintain leadership. Israelis did not reward the moderates, so the people chose the extremists.

The violent rioters in Ferguson are extremists. Even Al Sharpton is an extremist. The media has created him as the leader of this movement in Ferguson, and many are following (like the statement put out by the Congressional Black Caucus, or the display by the StL Rams players Sunday). What these people, these groups are saying and doing, is a harsh insult to moderate whites.


The path towards a better future, in my opinion, we all have to reward what we want more of. Blacks must reward moderate whites, not insult them, nor reward extremist blacks. And whites must find ways to reward moderate blacks.

I've said some number of posts ago, the choice we have in Ferguson is a decision between supporting (1) a judicial system that had some flaws, or (2) violent rioters led by deceit and manipulation. The decision reached in the end I believe was the correct decision. I choose to reward the imperfect judicial system over the extremists.

How do I reward moderates trying to improve the systems? I honestly don't know. Maybe I need to look into it. Supporting destruction of Darren Wilson through every possible avenue is not the way to do it, that I am positive of. Hell, I was outraged at the O.J. civil suit verdict, it boggles my mind how a person found not guilty could still wind up in financial ruin over the incident.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,344
15,154
136
The root cause of the issue is Brown attacking Wilson then people burning down the town. I note with some amusement that one of the most hated people in the US by ThinkProgress is cited as their hero. The other thing is that police ought not hide details. Period. Does that matter? Nope, just don't argue for facts and fairness, just make the cop not get any.

Oh an amusing blurb

let me put his life in danger, but don't tell anyone where I live.

This incident, as I had already explained, is simply the straw that broke the camels back.

What the rest of your post has to do with me I do not know. If you want my opinion on that outside event just ask, otherwise I try to ignore issues caused by others ignorance.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Some people are a little more equal than others. But the reverse of that is true as well, some get caught up in a witch hunt because of their public position or wealth.
Yep, but there's all kinds of non-equality. Had Brown been white, we'd see his family demanding "justice" and everyone else saying "dumbass".

There is a time and place to discuss the statistics of the judicial system, but it is not within the context of this Ferguson situation, it just is not. It is too tainted.

To start off, a lot of people have special advantages within the field they work in, so the fact that statistics for police officers is different, does not surprise me. I've also been on a jury of a trial, what are you supposed to do? You do your best to treat the case based only on the evidence and circumstances that belong to that one situation. When making a decision on a case, we don't consult the statistical data based on demographics of the parties involved and swing the verdict so the stats become more alike with each other.


I'm going to divert for a moment. Some time ago I was listening to a guy's take on the Israel/Palestine conflict. The Palestinians elected an extremist group to lead them. They elected an extremist group because the Israelis did not work with prior moderate leadership. If the Israelis want a moderate leadership leading the Palestinian people, they have to reward them. The moderates have to be able to turn around and show the people they achieved progress, in order to maintain leadership. Israelis did not reward the moderates, so the people chose the extremists.

The violent rioters in Ferguson are extremists. Even Al Sharpton is an extremist. The media has created him as the leader of this movement in Ferguson, and many are following (like the statement put out by the Congressional Black Caucus, or the display by the StL Rams players Sunday). What these people, these groups are saying and doing, is a harsh insult to moderate whites.


The path towards a better future, in my opinion, we all have to reward what we want more of. Blacks must reward moderate whites, not insult them, nor reward extremist blacks. And whites must find ways to reward moderate blacks.

I've said some number of posts ago, the choice we have in Ferguson is a decision between supporting (1) a judicial system that had some flaws, or (2) violent rioters led by deceit and manipulation. The decision reached in the end I believe was the correct decision. I choose to reward the imperfect judicial system over the extremists.

How do I reward moderates trying to improve the systems? I honestly don't know. Maybe I need to look into it. Supporting destruction of Darren Wilson through every possible avenue is not the way to do it, that I am positive of. Hell, I was outraged at the O.J. civil suit verdict, it boggles my mind how a person found not guilty could still wind up in financial ruin over the incident.
Well said.

This incident, as I had already explained, is simply the straw that broke the camels back.

What the rest of your post has to do with me I do not know. If you want my opinion on that outside event just ask, otherwise I try to ignore issues caused by others ignorance.
So are you going to demand that black men gain the right to attack cops in safety because the camel's back is broken? Seems to me you'd be smarter waiting for a black man wrongfully killed by a cop and then burn the town.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,344
15,154
136
Yep, but there's all kinds of non-equality. Had Brown been white, we'd see his family demanding "justice" and everyone else saying "dumbass".


Well said.


So are you going to demand that black men gain the right to attack cops in safety because the camel's back is broken? Seems to me you'd be smarter waiting for a black man wrongfully killed by a cop and then burn the town.

Yes, let's just wait until an innocent person is killed, it's not like that hasn't happened multiple times since this event took place.
 

Druidx

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
2,971
0
76
LOL, the very 1st line from the Salon article that McShane thinks is great.

Black people have to learn everything about white people just to stay alive.

What? you mean like not attack a police officer ?
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
LOL, the very 1st line from the Salon article that McShane thinks is great.

What? you mean like not attack a police officer ?

....or not play with BB guns in a Toys'R Us or play with a toy gun at a park or not walk down the street with a toy gun, or simply walk UNARMED in a stairway in your own apartment complex etc....
 
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The Merg

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2009
1,210
34
91
....or not play with BB guns in a Toys'R Us or play with a toy gun at a park or now walk down the street with a toy gun, or simply walk UNARMED in a stairway in your own apartment complex etc....


Or not start to raise the toy gun at the cop at a Toys R Us or go around pointing the toy gun at strangers in the park and then start to draw it when the police tell you to put your hands up.

The last one was a tragic accident. The cop didn't follow the cardinal rules of safety and killed an innocent person.

- Merg
 

FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
4,670
271
126
Or not start to raise the toy gun at the cop at a Toys R Us or go around pointing the toy gun at strangers in the park and then start to draw it when the police tell you to put your hands up.

The last one was a tragic accident. The cop didn't follow the cardinal rules of safety and killed an innocent person.

- Merg

From what I read, the toy gun had the orange ring removed. This was indeed a tragic accident, but even a 12 year old should know to not point a gun (even a toy one) at a cop. Truly sad.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
From what I read, the toy gun had the orange ring removed. This was indeed a tragic accident, but even a 12 year old should know to not point a gun (even a toy one) at a cop. Truly sad.

Merg is saying that was a "good shoot". the last case was a new NYPD cop that shot and killed an innocent man by accident.

But maybe people here can explain how police procedure is to drive to within 2 feet of a kid w/ an alleged gun, and shoot him all within about two seconds.

Just like the Walmart execution....cops come in:

Cop:"Drop the gun"
Innocent person: "huh?"
Cop (.5 seconds later): shoot shoot shoot.

Nothing like giving a startled innocent person all of .5sec to figure out what is going on before being executed.
 

The Merg

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2009
1,210
34
91
From what I read, the toy gun had the orange ring removed. This was indeed a tragic accident, but even a 12 year old should know to not point a gun (even a toy one) at a cop. Truly sad.

My comment about the accident was reference the shooting of the guy in the stairwell and not the kid in the park, although the death of the 12 year old is tragic as well.

- Merg
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Nothing like giving a startled innocent person all of .5sec to figure out what is going on before being executed.

Thankfully the kid was black, if he was suburban white, not only would the cop not have a job, he would be on trial for murder. Because the kid was an inner-city black, the cop will keep his job and get some free paid vacation thrown in.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
Thankfully the kid was black, if he was suburban white, not only would the cop not have a job, he would be on trial for murder. Because the kid was an inner-city black, the cop will keep his job and get some free paid vacation thrown in.

So much for trying to man up and admit you were wrong earlier.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
So much for trying to man up and admit you were wrong earlier.

Different case, you should really polish your reading skills! LOL!


I was referencing the kid in the park playing with a toy gun when a cop drove up and straight up executed him.
 

The Merg

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2009
1,210
34
91
Different case, you should really polish your reading skills! LOL!


I was referencing the kid in the park playing with a toy gun when a cop drove up and straight up executed him.

Try getting your facts right...

The cop told him to put his hands up. The kid pulled out a gun. That's not an execution.

- Merg
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
Try getting your facts right...

The cop told him to put his hands up. The kid pulled out a gun. That's not an execution.

- Merg

It is not worth using facts with certain people. They simply go with the first, idiotic story they heard and pretend that is the truth. News outlets reported cops show up and shoot kid with a toy gun and that's all people need to know. Doesn't matter if the gun looked real and he drew it after being told to put his hands up or that he pointed it at police.
 
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