MMO Long Life Cycles and new MMO development

[maniacalpha1-1]

Like dungeon specific gear if you don't have you have not completed the game type of stuff. Reach level 50 and want endgame content? You have to raid this dungeon. I never liked that concept, it seems lazy development.

Drops from NPC are another issue I have. They are not random drops like DAOC had (comparing to it because again best game I ever played). Games now-a-days have drops based on certain loot rules. Level 1-3 mobs dropped the same stuff, everyone got. MMO now do that same thing, but they make it worse, you only get certain drops at certain levels, and only certain items. Archeage does this same crap as well, but its forgivable because later on you can buy/craft better gear anyways.

DAoC was different, Farm a certain mob enough you get a rares drop that will last you maybe to level 8 if you are level 1-3. You could get a ring at level 8 that would be better than random grey drops till level 20 if you are lucky. Drops in other MMO are just "stuff" to get you to higher level, everyone gets drops just to sell for gold in MMO now. You don't get many types of drops in MMO anymore like used to. Very rarely you see MMO that do the grey/green/yellow/blue/purple rarity. If they do, its just on boss mobs, which require a dungeon raid. You could get RoG items in daoc with crazy stats, that only you would have. You could get a ring with +24dex at level 30 as a archer farming the same mobs for 4 hours straight, sell if to 1plat because that ring was really wanted by level 50s. Stuff like that is exciting for everyone the player playing and the person wanting the ring.

The other thing that is bothersome is leveling. I work 40 hours a week, but MMO now you can get to max level in a month of casual play. That is INSANE. Back to my favorite MMO, it took me a YEAR to get to max level, because it was just the way it was designed. Later on it became easier, but it felt like a fulfilling experience and something proud full of. You would go Ding 50! in chat and everyone was like OMG grats. Now its just like "so..its not hard".

I know I sound like a old grump MMO player, but I don't see the point in making a MASSIVe multiplayer game and limit it to stupid restrictive design concepts. You can copy other MMO concepts, but please make the core something better than the older concepts, just don't copy and paste how the old way was.

Don't get me started on the stupid "every class can play this" bullshit trend.

LOL! You're complaining about the same stuff I do. I say "max level in 4 weeks", you say "max level in a month of casual play". Yes, the sense of accomplishment and fulfillment that can only be given when everyone has to put in their time and effort, is giving way to instant gratification.

Back in EQ, when people would start a new alt, they would jokingly say Ding 2! Saying Ding 50 in newer games is about like saying Ding 2! The question is will this instant gratification ever end?

And yea...every class being able to do everything sucks. Takes the "role" out of role-playing. Role playing doesn't ONLY mean you sit in a tavern saying "thee and thou", it also means pick a class role and stick with it.

 

[Veliko]

If it takes four weeks to reach max level I really don't see how that's an example of instant gratification.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

If it takes four weeks to reach max level I really don't see how that's an example of instant gratification.

You've never played EQ1. I was happy with a level or two a week. Admittedly I wasn't that hard core with it.

 

[Veliko]

You've never played EQ1. I was happy with a level or two a week. Admittedly I wasn't that hard core with it.

I don't see how this is relevant at all.

Everquest wasn't even the first MMO nor was it the most hardcore, so does that mean it was also catering to those wanting instant gratification?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

No disrespect intended, it is how the market has changed. Max level in four weeks would not be a rational thing to expect in EQ1 or Ultima or even AO

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

In EQ1, as with Dark Age of Camelot as described above by imaheadcase, it could take a non-poopsocker a year to reach max level. Thus, if a non-poopsocker can reach max level in 4 weeks, relatively speaking, that seems like instant gratification.

Now, I would be happy if it took 4-5 months. There's got to be a compromise that speeds things up, but at the same time it takes enough time to remain an accomplishment.

Also, I have to say, I don't consider it hardcore just because you can't accomplish major things in a short amount of time. Was a year to max level hardcore? Somewhat, yes, but I think 4-5 months would be an excellent compromise. Developers kept making things easier and easier and now, even some of us who played starting years ago have gotten dependent on getting instant gratification. I myself have not taken a plunge into another MMORPG since I quit EQ for this reason. I tried SW TOR, and it was awesome for single player, but for multiplayer it suffers from exactly what we're talking about.


I wish we could get an MMO Rating System that grades things on everything from Class, Geography, Economy, time commitment/time to achieve things, combat styles, and like 15-20 other things I could list. I would not necessarily be a Bad to Good grade, but simply a grading as to who it targets. On the Time Commitment category, many recent MMORPGs would certainly be graded as "Targets those seeking minimum time commitment".

 

[Fanatical Meat]

All I want is an MMO that is group focused but still allows everyone to group. Different skills or classes that all add value to the group. I want it to be likely that you will die and there be some pain to it. I want a big world that you can get lost in, minimal arrows and roads to guide you. Make crafting fun maybe an option for a simple mini game like fishing. Some special items but not tons and I'm fine with a reasonable monthly charge & cash shop. Why is it so damn hard?

 

[Veliko]

So it's instant gratification if you invent your own definition of what instant gratification actually means.

And four to five months of "Hai, can you get me 10 tiger eyes" quests? No thanks.

 

[ElFenix]

defined classes suck
big discreet levels suck
end game raid grinding (EQ did it, EQ was big and successful, and so pretty much everyone copied it) sucks

 

[v8envy]

That's the biggest thing I hate about today's MMOs -- the content is completely pointless until max level.

Back in the day you knew you'd be the same level for several days, so shopping for or otherwise obtaining level-appropriate gear and optimizing a bit made sense. You'd get several days use out of that effort.

Now? Just wear whatever crap you clicked on, in 30 minutes it would take you to get to a market and shop you'd outlevel your gear anyway.

 

[xantub]

defined classes suck

Totally disagree, I need defined classes to play an MMO.

big discreet levels suck

Totally disagree, the feeling of accomplishment is much higher when it takes you time to reach it.

end game raid grinding (EQ did it, EQ was big and successful, and so pretty much everyone copied it) sucks

here I totally agree, but if the game takes a long time to reach the 'end game' then it's fine. I played EQ1 for like 2 years and never reached max level.

 

[Craig234]

My prediction about MMO's getting 'easier' came true; another prediction hasn't, the MMO that abolishes levels, but has advancement only through faction/gear/bosses etc.

Why do I predict that? It's expensive to develop content that's used once for level 10-20, 20-30, and so on; those resources could go to better repeatable content.

The leveling thing is a throwback to D&D, and is just one mechanism for RPG's, and not necessary. It means more in early MMO's when it took a year to reach max level.

Now it's this period of weeks or a couple months players have to 'go through' many of them not liking it much, that could just be removed.

It also adds a little to 'realism' not to have levels. And it's a new twist.

And finally one more thing is that it might allow experienced players to play with friends new to the game more easily. Some games allow level-changing for this.

The Shire wasn't 'level 1 to 10', while Mines of Moria were '20-30', and Morodor 'level 40-50'. Leveling could be anachronistic.

 

[jruchko]

I really think that if if a company basically made a 3d version of runescape with action combat they could make a ton of money.

Runecape really has the best quests I have ever seen in an MMO. I also like having a lot of different things to level, and having quests require certain non-combat skills at certain levels to complete. It gives a great sense of growth, and gives you great long-term goals to work towards.

The reason I cannot play MMO's anymore is because they cannot put in enough content. You hit max level in a month and then you have max gear within a few weeks unless they use archaic time-gated mechanincs for end-game dungeons.

Runescape is complete shit these days, but they have a lot of things in place that solve a lot of the problems I see people having with current MMO's.

TL;DR - Take the good from Runescpape, add 3d action combat, and make tons of money.

 

[Midwayman]

Many of those players aren't videogamers.
They have a hobby called WoW or EQ or whatever.

When they finally stop playing then won't migrate to another MMO.

Sorta. I think a lot of those people are playing for the community. They have friends on there that are probably their closest friends. Quitting WoW would be like leaving all your friends behind. Getting whole guild to move on to another game is always tricky proposition. If WoW died, they'd figure it out just do they'd have another place to hang out. However the game is probably secondary to why a lot of them play anymore.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Part of the reason I hope for a new addictive game is so that, in fact, I can rejoin a community! Not to be super specific, but hell, some new games aren't even doing in-game chatting right; how are you supposed to develop a community like that?

By in-game chatting I mean the ability to join on-the-fly chat channels, auctions, etc.

 

[s44]

Sorta. I think a lot of those people are playing for the community. They have friends on there that are probably their closest friends. Quitting WoW would be like leaving all your friends behind. Getting whole guild to move on to another game is always tricky proposition. If WoW died, they'd figure it out just do they'd have another place to hang out. However the game is probably secondary to why a lot of them play anymore.

That's what I meant by network effects.

 

[darkewaffle]

What do you mean by cut-off? If people are still playing these old games doesn't that say more about the quality of the new ones?

Not really. People like that which is familiar and comfortable. And quitting a game that you've put so much time into can be uncomfortable for people because so much goes into it and in many cases you would leave with nothing to show for it. Solution? Don't leave

My one friend has had an active WoW sub for most of the last decade. At this point he's literally developed somewhat of an emotional attachment to his character lol. He'll play other stuff but never sticks with it due in no small part to his 'roots' running so deep now.