[MMO] Rift - Discussion

[JoshGuru7]

There are bad things about playing on a high population server as well - the queue on Faeblight right now (as Event Stage 2 is getting underway) is 8 hours and 23 minutes.

 

[SunnyD]

I am thoroughly disappointed with the "event". What a let down.

 

[s1njin]

I'm saying there's no fucking weakness to any class. They can all tank. They can all heal. They can all DPS. Everybody is generic. Everybody is the fucking same. The only differences are the slight variations in armor. If that's not enough for you, how about the fact that everyone within a "class" is basically the same, because they all have the same talent sets they can switch between? Oh, you made a novel combination of bard and blademaster? Guess what, everybody else has that set too, and they can switch to it at will.

It probably makes no sense to people who started MMOs with Fisher Price WoW, but 10 years ago MMOs had real classes and they were drastically different from each other. A wizard in Everquest was completely different from a warrior. And you couldn't hit a button and pay 5 gold to switch. You picked your class and you dealt with the consequences of your choice or you made a new character.

MMOs need to lose the easy button or they are going to fail, even WoW.

This !!

Hahahahaha. At least I'm not the only one ....

 

[Veliko]

This !!

Hahahahaha. At least I'm not the only one ....

Wait, there is more than one person that thinks that in Rift a mage is the same as a warrior?

Wow.

 

[kehlsi]

Wait, there is more than one person that thinks that in Rift a mage is the same as a warrior?

Wow.

yeah i'm a slightly thrown off by anyone who thinks the classes are the same as well.

 

[brandonb]

I'm into the 40's now with my rogue. Here are my current throughts on Rift.

1) The difficulty never really increases. When you level up, fighting mobs is ultimately the same as it was at lvl 5. You hit the same 3-5 buttons on your hotbar, and you win a battle. The mobs fight exactly the same. Your character have nearly the same abilities (just the numbers are higher). Fighting in Droughlands (lvl 40 zone) has the exact same feel as fighting in Silverwood (lvl 10 zone). You just grind quests over and over. It would be nice to more camps with elite mobs where you needed to have a group to complete it. Or by this time, most camps need to be elites (80&#37 where you just had a small fraction of solo quests or content.

2) Warfronts and PVP have major imbalances. As characters get PVP souls, and more abilities, there are always abilities to break snares/roots/mezzes/stuns. Which means, characters which do those things have been made completely useless. You have 2 types of people in warfronts. Healers and DPS. Tanks have been made useless because the scale in which people do damage. They die just as fast as anybody else now. So you have healers which keep people up, and anybody else. Granted a healer + tank last longer than a healer + dps, but a tank by themselves or a dps by themselves there is no difference.

3) The roles do not feel special, as others have mentioned, they can do anything. I was fighting with a friend in PVP as my bard/sab, and he is a reaver/beastmaster. He were fighting a single bard on the other team and could not kill him. He just kept running in circles avoiding the tank, and myself and him doing our bard heals and we were at a stalemate. We were widdling him down very slowly over about 2 minutes. And a clothy in a robe came up from the other team and healed the bard all the way up and then nuked us down and killed us... My tank said "WTF how is he out healing us?" I said "The guy in the robe is a healer and a nuker" and he said "WTH." I told him once he sees that he needs to bee line to the healer. He made the comment that he can't tell who is who by the stuff they are wearing. In other games, you can tell who someone is by their race and outfit for the most part. This game its nearly impossible to tell, and you just have to assume everybody can do anything.

4) No death penalty. You have to die 10 times before you even start to lose any stats etc. It makes the game entirely trivial. There is no penalty, and 95% of all the content is solo based. When you have 2 people in a group playing, you steam roll over everything. In the odd instance where you die, there is no penalty. I played the entire weekend at my friends house and gained 10 levels each in our group. There were times I told him I needed to log because I was so bored grinding quests, that I needed to do something else. At times he was saying "Why am I even playing this game? I should be playing EQ1!"

At this point, I can't see myself playing much longer. When I hit 50 it's likely I will log out and never touch it again. I can't see myself creating another class because I'll still have the same quests to grind (all millions of them that are way too easy), and granted I might have a nuke instead of a grenade, but in the end, it's all the same. I wouldn't be able to stomach it.

 

[skace]

Jesus fuck this argument is stupid and inaccurate.

UO is one of the most unique MMOs of it's time and everyone could do everything with a 700 point cap. And I know what you are thinking, "Yea but you had to train those", horseshit, everyone macroed and anyone who says they didn't is also a liar. So rift's system is largely similar to UO and people should be happy about that because it allows many, many variations on play style.

Which brings me to my next point and I've made this point before. Just because you can respec your mage to heal doesn't mean you know how to heal with a mage. You become the equivalent of some guy who just ebay purchased his WoW Priest and doesn't know any timers, any cool downs, doesn't know what half his spells even do, doesn't know where to stand or what to cast. You need to LEARN. And each role you learn makes it harder to switch back to previous roles because all of your spell orders and timings will be off.

And just because a Rogue can tank or a Mage can heal doesn't mean a Mage can heal every encounter and a Rogue can tank every encounter. It means there is variation, certain battles that might go a lot smoother with a Rogue tank and other battles that go smoother with a Warrior tank.

I see a lot of EQ references in this last page, which is odd because often I'm the one bringing up EQ and most of you probably barely played it. EQ had a lot of risk and a lot of challenge, but when it comes to class abilities, EQ was a fucking lame duck. You had classes like Druids who had an absolute plethora of fun and fantastic abilities, but yet suffered where it was important. You had Clerics who had the most important spells in the entire game yet were an absolute chore to play, to the point where half your clerics at any time were bots. You had Warriors who, despite being one of the most important classes, were completely gear dependant and, for most of EQ's history, had 2 skills - kick (or slam) and taunt. You had Enchanters who, despite being broken at the game's release, once fixed had a million amazing tools to help a group but couldn't kill a green 2 feet in front of it without resorting to the riskiest of tactics. You had Mages and Necros, with amazing soloing capabilities yet for many years weren't even desired because of their limited (and often unnecessarily risky) abilities in groups. Then you had the hybrids, the never-balanced, where exactly do bards, sks and paladins fit, they were constantly modified to try and shoe-horn them into non-existent roles. And as the case always was, the best of abilities in EQ were constantly being nerfed or outright removed.

EQ had a lot going for it, I loved the ability to actively improve at skills (instead of buying ranks), I loved how hard battles were, how complex dungeons were, how complicated the rng could be ("just how long will this invisibility/root stick for?"). I loved the sheer number of spells and all of their various effects. However, I can't say I loved the skill system as a whole.

Who remembers sitting at the zone line of a dungeon in EQ because you have 4 people and no healer? I do. The thing to keep in mind with Rift is that, yes 2 classes may have similar abilities, but that doesn't mean you will succeed by turning every character into a healer, you still need a viable strategy and spread of skills. It just means that you might not have a cleric that day but you can still do a dungeon (maybe).

 

[skace]

He made the comment that he can't tell who is who by the stuff they are wearing. In other games, you can tell who someone is by their race and outfit for the most part. This game its nearly impossible to tell, and you just have to assume everybody can do anything.

In UO, there was absolutely no way of telling what another person was capable of. And often, players would dress in fake costumes to try and make a player think they were a weaker target than they really were. The reality of it is that you just need to have a better strategy than the person you are attacking and be able to adapt on the fly. You also need to be able to know when to pull back and stop running in circles like a retard.

One of the problems in WoW PVP is that, just based on what classes were present, other classes like Rogues knew right where to strike to hamper another team. Certain classes were often completely ignored or parked while other classes were given priority. It turned a lot of matches into first strike victories. While the same is possible in Rift, it can be much harder to determine the outcome of a conflict just by a first glance.

 

[p0nd]

Jesus fuck this argument is stupid and inaccurate.

UO is one of the most unique MMOs of it's time and everyone could do everything with a 700 point cap. And I know what you are thinking, "Yea but you had to train those", horseshit, everyone macroed and anyone who says they didn't is also a liar. So rift's system is largely similar to UO and people should be happy about that because it allows many, many variations on play style.

I feel like i may be picking nits, and it depends on what era of UO you're talking about but that largely isn't true. I really like the skill cap mechanic, and it made hybrid builds viable - but your warrior-mage, for example, was never going to be as good at melee as a pure warrior or as good as casting as a pure tank mage. And you needed at least one separate character for crafting, another if you wanted to be a treasure-hunter, or thief, or tamer, etc. Not only that, but say there was no skill cap - you would still need alts because different characters have different stat distributions (e.g. dexer vs. mage). If UO had a button to redistribute all of your earned points wherever you want, then maybe i could see it being like Rift, but it would also break the game since it wasn't designed around such a mechanic.
The other difference is that success in UO was largely skill based rather than item based, though this did change with more recent expansions leading to very heavy item reliance. Of course the bad part of skill based was, like you said, that many people macroed their skills to GM (painfully slow gains were also responsible for this); the good part was that a competent player didn't need weapons of vanquishing or fortification armor to be effective in combat.

This is just my 2c, and i think the rest of your post is pretty spot on. I think I prefer UO system over Rift's, but both games are still fun and I'm not really out to min/max anything anymore. I get more of a kick out of running around and exploring.

 

[Arsinek]

Its so funny the happiness and excitement right before an MMO gets launched then it gets launched and everyone's dreams are crushed.

 

[skace]

I feel like i may be picking nits, and it depends on what era of UO you're talking about but that largely isn't true. I really like the skill cap mechanic, and it made hybrid builds viable - but your warrior-mage, for example, was never going to be as good at melee as a pure warrior or as good as casting as a pure tank mage. And you needed at least one separate character for crafting, another if you wanted to be a treasure-hunter, or thief, or tamer, etc. Not only that, but say there was no skill cap - you would still need alts because different characters have different stat distributions (e.g. dexer vs. mage). If UO had a button to redistribute all of your earned points wherever you want, then maybe i could see it being like Rift, but it would also break the game since it wasn't designed around such a mechanic.
The other difference is that success in UO was largely skill based rather than item based, though this did change with more recent expansions leading to very heavy item reliance. Of course the bad part of skill based was, like you said, that many people macroed their skills to GM (painfully slow gains were also responsible for this); the good part was that a competent player didn't need weapons of vanquishing or fortification armor to be effective in combat.

This is just my 2c, and i think the rest of your post is pretty spot on. I think I prefer UO system over Rift's, but both games are still fun and I'm not really out to min/max anything anymore. I get more of a kick out of running around and exploring.

Yea, I don't disagree with you. My main point of comparing to UO was simply that most people would consider UO's skill system one of the best systems ever in an MMO, so if Rift even comes close to it then it should be considered a good thing and not some sort of gimmick.

Also, the warrior/mage lines in UO were even more blurred considering UO was the original home of the battle-mage, the plate wearing caster. Or how about the mage who skilled up in stealth, rogue mages. Then you had ridiculous builds like lumberjack/poison that forums would absolutely ball over if it happened these days.

Edit: Oh and I'm in it for the exploration too most of the time.

 

[shurato]

I have cancelled my account. I think it was worth the money to play for a month and a half but when it boils down to it, this is a wow clone with not much else going for it. Definitely the excitement from the launch has died for me and very quickly.

Guess I'll be waiting for Guild Wars 2 now.

 

[BenSkywalker]

1) The difficulty never really increases.

It won't if you do every quest and significantly out level the zone you are in, which you are doing based on your comments.

Fighting in Droughlands (lvl 40 zone) has the exact same feel as fighting in Silverwood (lvl 10 zone).

I left Droughlands at 36, it isn't a 40 zone(it has some mobs in the 40s, but it is a mid to late 30s zone). Keep the quests orange and you'll have a more reasonable challenge.

It would be nice to more camps with elite mobs where you needed to have a group to complete it. Or by this time, most camps need to be elites (80&#37 where you just had a small fraction of solo quests or content.

Forced grouping to do quests, killer idea to drive away a player base. Look at FFXI for an example of how well that worked(its' overall mechanics were superior to almost every other MMO, but it forced grouping to do much of anything which killed the game). If I'm playing a 2am the idea of not being able to do anything because there isn't a decent group to be had doesn't sound remotely appealing in the least. As it is now, you can do instances if you have a group, solo content if you don't. Not a bad approach IMO, and certainly a more versatile one then what you are talking about.

3) The roles do not feel special, as others have mentioned, they can do anything.

Really? I'm kind of curious how I tank on a mage? I haven't had much luck with it. Also, while many people talk about it, the mage in this game is not remotely close to a true healer even specced pure Chloro(I have a build just like that). A whopping 2 direct heal spells both with long cooldowns. They should make for a great utility class throwing Synthesis on the MT in raid content(or even in dungeons) giving supplemental healing while doing some dps, but to make it out like they are viable healing class just isn't accurate. I have yet to try another non Cleric healing class, but if it is comparable to the mage then implying that they are viable healers is just comical. Fighting one of the invasion bosses my pure Chloro wouldn't stand a chance of healing himself through the AOE damage without running out, and it isn't that bad(Synth buff makes it so I can heal one person somewhat decently if focused on it, that's it, and can't put it on myself).

I've got a reasonable amount of time in with the mage class, minimal with the others atm, but mages in this game are very clearly dps with the ability to have some supplemental abilities so they aren't entirely one dimmensional. They can handle some buffs, or be a decent supplemental healer for a single target. They are not going to be tanking anything and they aren't close to a true healer. If the other classes are comparable in their mixed rolls, then I think that Trion did a very good job offering us some flexibility without making everyone generic.

 

[s1njin]

Really? I'm kind of curious how I tank on a mage? I haven't had much luck with it. Also, while many people talk about it, the mage in this game is not remotely close to a true healer even specced pure Chloro(I have a build just like that). A whopping 2 direct heal spells both with long cooldowns. They should make for a great utility class throwing Synthesis on the MT in raid content(or even in dungeons) giving supplemental healing while doing some dps, but to make it out like they are viable healing class just isn't accurate. I have yet to try another non Cleric healing class, but if it is comparable to the mage then implying that they are viable healers is just comical. Fighting one of the invasion bosses my pure Chloro wouldn't stand a chance of healing himself through the AOE damage without running out, and it isn't that bad(Synth buff makes it so I can heal one person somewhat decently if focused on it, that's it, and can't put it on myself). I've got a reasonable amount of time in with the mage class, minimal with the others atm, but mages in this game are very clearly dps with the ability to have some supplemental abilities so they aren't entirely one dimmensional. They can handle some buffs, or be a decent supplemental healer for a single target. They are not going to be tanking anything and they aren't close to a true healer. If the other classes are comparable in their mixed rolls, then I think that Trion did a very good job offering us some flexibility without making everyone generic.

I was out w/ my group of friends yesterday. We were wandering around Gloamfield (Glomfeld? Something like that) and we got ganked by a bunch of prowler cats that were level 20. My party is 18,19,20. The Mage is 19.

4 cats, 3 people. My Anti-Cleric Cleric (my non healing DOT/Nuke 'cleric' role) was tanking 2 of them, the Bard had one, and the Mage had the other. Now, normally in most other MMORPGs there would be panic trying to pull aggro off the Mage.

Not here. Everybody is just sorta swinging/casting/spam hitting whatever ability is lit up. 2 cats down for me, 1/4 of my health gone. The Bard took his cat down a little faster than my 2, but was barely scratched. The Mage?

About 2/3 of health left, holding her own.

Really? 1 on 1, close quarters - there is no panic or urgency to save her. This is Rift afterall.

You can do anything and everything. You're just a version of Superman with a different color cape.

While entertaining, even my other party members were getting snarky about feeling invincible and making a joke of it.

 

[Veliko]

I was out w/ my group of friends yesterday. We were wandering around Gloamfield (Glomfeld? Something like that) and we got ganked by a bunch of prowler cats that were level 20. My party is 18,19,20. The Mage is 19.

4 cats, 3 people. My Anti-Cleric Cleric (my non healing DOT/Nuke 'cleric' role) was tanking 2 of them, the Bard had one, and the Mage had the other. Now, normally in most other MMORPGs there would be panic trying to pull aggro off the Mage.

A mage being able to survive an attack from one, solitary non-elite mob is not tanking in any meaningful sense.

You can do anything and everything.

Only if you restrict the definition of 'anything and everything' to 'attacking quest mobs'.

You're just a version of Superman with a different color cape.

Well, you are an ascended after all.

 

[s1njin]

A mage being able to survive an attack from one, solitary non-elite mob is not tanking in any meaningful sense.

No, not in the group definition of the word Tank. However do that in any other RPG and see how long you are standing. AD&D, EQ, EQ2, WoW. Heck I'm leveling a Lock in WoW right now. If my Voidwalker kicks the bucket and the mob turns to me, my health bar is going to fall. Fast. I'm wearing a robe - that's the way its supposed to be !

 

[Veliko]

No, not in the group definition of the word Tank. However do that in any other RPG and see how long you are standing. AD&D, EQ, EQ2, WoW. Heck I'm leveling a Lock in WoW right now. If my Voidwalker kicks the bucket and the mob turns to me, my health bar is going to fall. Fast. I'm wearing a robe - that's the way its supposed to be !

A warlock's voidwalker getting killed is about the equivalant of a mage not being able to cast any spells. If you take away a major component of a character then yes of course they will die.

A mage in WoW could easily 'tank' a single, non-elite mob without breaking a sweat. As a frost mage I could take on three or four sometimes.

Your use of the word 'tank' here is erroneous to say the least.

 

[s1njin]

A warlock's voidwalker getting killed is about the equivalant of a mage not being able to cast any spells. If you take away a major component of a character then yes of course they will die.

A mage in WoW could easily 'tank' a single, non-elite mob without breaking a sweat. As a frost mage I could take on three or four sometimes.

Your use of the word 'tank' here is erroneous to say the least.

Semantics. If you are one on one with something and its up close and personal, you're tanking it in my book.

Look Rift has a lot of things going for it - obviously everybody is going to have a opinion. For some people, I'm sure the whole super hero thing is right up their alley and they really enjoy the game. My one buddy is one such person. He is living and breathing this game - and that's good for him and Trion I suppose.

 

[Davidpaul007]

Its so funny the happiness and excitement right before an MMO gets launched then it gets launched and everyone's dreams are crushed.

Interesting comment, I've seen this many times as well.

For Rift, I didn't even realize it was coming until the day it realeased, I must've been under the big, heavy, WoW rock.

I played WoW off and on since early 2005 (eep). I have every expansion and maxed multiple characters in every expansion...

My thoughts on Rift to add to the discussion or for those thinking about trying it out. I bought the game on March 23.

-Very similar to Wow in the "feel" of the game as far as UI, keybindings, overall playstyle. The armor is much more "realistic" and not near as over-the-top as WoW. At first I didn't like this but over the last few weeks this has really grown on me.

-Some nice little "additions" that I think long time WoW players will appreciate--such as a customizable UI (finally w/out addons), AoE looting (I love this), public groups, and when one member of a party enters the dungeon everyone else can be ported there instantly.

-The AH doesn't have as nice functionality as WoW. It feels kinda like a plain version of the WoW AH. For instance, when you put a stack of items to sell you can't set the price/unit, you just set the price for the whole stack.

-Originally the melee sound effects seemed to be kinda blah and I prefered WoW's combat sound. I don't know if I've just gotten used to the different style or what, but I no longer dislike the melee sounds effects.

-Gorgeous graphics. I thought WoW looked fine but after going to Rift there is just no comparison.

-The soul system was daunting at first--so many abilities to learn and switching specs meant I had to sit around the city for a while reading the abilities to figure out what they all did and how they interacted. After I got familiar with a few different soul trees I REALLY like the variety available. Despite what others have said, I feel like the different souls have very unique playstyles/abilities/strengths/weakeness.

-I am just astonished how some folks feel that the classes are "generic". Wow. Yes there are many tank/healer specs but they all feel very different.

-Unlike WoW, I actually feel like I DO have several spec choices within each soul.

-I've leveled a warrior to 28, mage to 20, cleric/rogues to 10 or so. All the classes felt very unique.

-crafting is great. The stuff you make is actually useful. I never could figure out why WoW insisted on crafters leveling making crap utterly USELESS. I just love being able to craft gear that is on par or in most cases better than quested gear. This also means that gear you make to level sells well on the AH.

-the "gimmick" of the game -- Rifts -- are both good and bad depending on who you ask it seems. It adds a dynamic feel to the world but at the same time rifts are pretty much all the same (so far). Doing the rifts is cool because it gives you drops and currency that is useful for gear and crafting items. The world events remind me of Asheron's call.

-Warfronts I've done so far (only 2 types avaialable at my level) are basically like Wow BG's.

-If you are the type to grind quests w/out reading or paying any attention for large amounts of time this game will get boring like any other MMO. You are basically pressing a few buttons over and over and picking up items and giving them to NPCs. I personally don't enjoy that playstyle--I like to explore, read quests, look at the scenery etc.

-I can't speak for endgame, I suspect it will be similar to WoW where you raid, build faction, "grind" honor (favor in Rift), etc.

-I never lag in game and my ping has always been < 80ms when I check. Lag was annoying as heck in wow, there were times my ping would just get stupid and the game became unplayable.

-no dungeon finder system in Rift. Some people like this, other don't. Not sure where I sit on this topic right now. So far it's been simple to get groups for the first instances in the game but I am a tank...

-it's awesome that 3 of the 4 classes can heal and tank. Doesn't seem to be a big shortage of either from my limited experience.

-Trion seems to be putting a lot of effort into adding things into the game rapidly. I don't think we'll be waiting for 2 years for the first expansion.

So I guess you could say I'm a fan of the game. Yes it feels very similar to WoW but at the same time it feels "new" and does so many things better. Four of my RL friends who played WoW and tried out Rift also prefer Rift.

 

[Veliko]

Semantics. If you are one on one with something and its up close and personal, you're tanking it in my book.

Right. And if I drink a health potion it means I am a healer and then if I skin a dead animal with a knife I am doing melee damage as well!

Look Rift has a lot of things going for it - obviously everybody is going to have a opinion. For some people, I'm sure the whole super hero thing is right up their alley and they really enjoy the game. My one buddy is one such person. He is living and breathing this game - and that's good for him and Trion I suppose.

The problem is that your opinion is based on a false premise.

 

[s1njin]

The problem is that your opinion is based on a false premise.

Well than I suppose I am in relatively good company !

 

[lupi]

I don't have enough experience with the game yet to give a real detailed breakdown, but some of those posting criticism are going to near absurd extremes to try and validate their off the trail comments.

If you want to play a game where you go from solo elite to solo elite encounter, then you had better keep looking for a single player game cause that's an absurd premise for the current mmo world.

 

[smackababy]

I don't have enough experience with the game yet to give a real detailed breakdown, but some of those posting criticism are going to near absurd extremes to try and validate their off the trail comments.

If you want to play a game where you go from solo elite to solo elite encounter, then you had better keep looking for a single player game cause that's an absurd premise for the current mmo world.

Absurd until SW:TOR is released. They've already stated they want to make it solo / small group friendly, even at end game.

But generally, if your complaint is you are "forced" to group in an MMO, you're playing the wrong type of game.


Finally hit 48 last night after taking a solid two weeks off. 47 was such a terrible level. I couldn't get into any AP/CC groups and LH only gives like a bubble. Oh well, because my last two levels are full rested XP!

 

[SunnyD]

But generally, if your complaint is you are "forced" to group in an MMO, you're playing the wrong type of game.

I wouldn't say that. I'm 47 and a half right now and really haven't been FORCED to group unless I wanted to do an instance. Which I've done a whole two of, just because I wanted to. With the amount of content in the game right now, grouping is kind of optional.

When I played WoW, I pretty much solo'd 3 characters to level cap, only doing a raid instance maybe a half dozen times over 2 years.

When I played DAoC, I solo'd my healer to level cap, grouping here and there along the way whenever I was feeling social.

Playing LOTRO, I solo'd nearly my entire "career" across multiple characters.

There's no reason in MMO's you can't be solo. Personally I'd find it way more appealing if more games worked like LOTRO, which scaled some instances and particular quests to whether you were grouped or not.

 

[Malladine]

Been 50 for a couple of weeks maybe and still enjoying the game, whether soloing rifts for the plethora of drops, running Warfronts, Experts or questing for rep while gathering materials for crafting and the guild. I'm still exploring the Warrior soul combinations too. I'm even used to the OP Pyros and raid boss Clerics Just makes defeating them that much more satisfying.

As far as leveling I made it to 50 pretty much entirely solo. The only grouping I did was optional.

Some people in my guild are raiding Greenscale, not downed him yet. I've mostly avoided that particular grind though. Only 36 Expert plaques so far. I've found lvl 50 PVP gear to be very comparable with at least T1 expert gear, both the best of the drops and the gear from plaques.

Some of the experts are tough, I spent over 3hrs in KB with a group full of people who had never done it. Got to 2:30am and I dc'd (for the night) at Konstantin. Rare for me to spend that long in an instance these days, it was fun though. Two Manticores fight kicked our asses 6 or 7 times before we beat it.