[MMO] World of Tanks

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eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
0
lololol the T-34 ROF w/the 57mm is insane. Played a game on campinovka where I fired 60 shells with 40 hits. Just throwing as much steel down field as possible, haha. In another game i continuously fired 30 shells into the front of a type 59. I know it was pointless but it was funny & I made that player super angry
 

Skott

Diamond Member
Oct 4, 2005
5,730
1
76
lololol the T-34 ROF w/the 57mm is insane. Played a game on campinovka where I fired 60 shells with 40 hits. Just throwing as much steel down field as possible, haha. In another game i continuously fired 30 shells into the front of a type 59. I know it was pointless but it was funny & I made that player super angry

Support Fire or Supressive Fire, it is what I call it, is not pointless if used properly. If you have a tank that has a fast reload and a lot of supplied ammo you can lay down a lot of flying lead. You can mow down walls and such that hide the enemy thus exposing them to you and your team mates guns. You can also bombard a enemy tank, even if its much bigger than yours, with so much lead that you may confuse him and/or make him thinking its better to move or pull back. Many times at the least you can distract a enemy by constantly pelting him with shots and causing him to make a fatal mistake. I've done it many times in various tanks including the T-34. And it is not expensive to do either. I find the machine gun like firing fun and amusing myself. I always get a kick out of doing it.
 

stag3

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2005
3,623
0
76
god i hope they fix the stupid MM one day.
when they put all the T59's on 1 team it's hard to beat
 

eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
0
god i hope they fix the stupid MM one day.
when they put all the T59's on 1 team it's hard to beat

I've been thinking about this issue b/c that was my reaction to seeing lots of type 59s as well. Especially after a streak of like 8 games where the enemy time always had 3-4 more type 59s than my team, and they *always* won. Really frustrating.

But I don't think the difficulty as much the type 59 being imbalanced as it is a result of automatic organization. When one team has a bunch of type 59s, the default behavior is for them to wolfpack together. They're all driving the same tank so they get a big group of concentrated firepower moving at the same speed, acting together. Usually they plow into a portion of the enemy line that is comparatively disorganized... b/c on pub matches people just don't organize/work together. And the type59 is in a great tier to be combat effective. Like in almost any tier battle, a group of 5 type59s attacking together can be powerful since they have a decent mix of armor/mobility/firepower.

The defenders need to anticipate the type59 approach or use scouts to detect it. Or have forward tanks pull back to the main group when they see it coming. Type59 rush typically gets far ahead of their team's main body. So defenders should draw them in & use heavies to halt the attack and flank/envelope with their own more mobile mediums/heavies. Track the 59s and concentrate fire, killing them one at a time, with high alpha tanks avoiding firing on tanks with only like 100hp left.

I think it's more an issue of an organizational advantage than it is an issue of tank imbalance. Attacking in a group is easy compared to defending in a group. If groupings of other 'generalist' tanks would always cause players to wolfpack together, I'm sure we'd see complaints about those too. Or if it were possible to platoon with 4 or 5 players (and those players aren't total idiots), I feel like that would draw the same amount of complaints.

Even in my tier 6 tanks, the 59 is really squishy from the sides/rear. But as long as I'm not alone, I can definitely put the hurt on with my vk3601 or sherman E2.

edit: that said, fuck you type 59. I hate you sooooo much, jesus christ. I'm constantly tempted to throw some more money at wargaming so I can buy my own type59 and join the party. The party of fucking evil.

edit2: this:
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/77233-did-anyone-have-fun/
is a WAY worse demonstration of MM failure. I've been in WAY more games of this nature since patch 7.0. It's absolutely ridiculous. I don't mind being bottom tank if I feel like I can still affect the battle somehow. Like in tier6-8 matches, my vk3601 might be at the bottom but I know I can do damage and help out. What's annoying is when I can hardly damage anyone/am too slow to scout, so I become almost entirely reliant on the rest of my team to win. 'Gevo' in the ATOT chat channel suggested that I try tank companies... and if those are as good as he made them sound I might just abandon pub matches entirely.
 
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Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
But, but, but, 59's aren't OP!

59's aren't. It is my firm belief that any other tier 8 (except possibly the KV5) is better than the 59. But it gets favorable matchmaking (can never fight tier 10 heavies), and the pack mentality makes them a threat. If the one team defends the rush then the 59's are TOAST.

I have a 59, I know how to duel in one. I know what to protect and how to angle my armor. I can also take a 59 on in my 43 and if I can't defeat him then I know I will at least put a world of pain on him.

As far as company battles go, they ARE fun. But losses are very costly. It takes a crapload of time to enter a game. So if you are trying to get doubles in a lot of tanks FORGET company battles. If you just want to get some games in and have SOME organization then tank companies work.
 

stag3

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2005
3,623
0
76
yea i think every match where there are multiple T59's, they automatically wolfpack, so that's a given. then my side gets various heavies that are to slow to stop them once they pass us. sure you can say defend base but nobody ever stays at base once the round starts except some TD's. i can't count how many times i've asked as arty, for a few to stay behind to stop the initial arty/cap rush and everyone just bounces when the game starts.

now the same exact effect happens when you get a few t-54's, pattons or e50's together but that is few and far between as there are just so many t59's out there.
i still kinda want to buy a T59 but i don't have any credit issues at the moment.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
Problem with T-59s is even if you all group up to defend the pack, you probably have a bunch of M6 or VK3601s or low tier russian heavies (KV, KV-3) that are trying to defend against it, and the T-59s can just chew through everything. You really need the big heavies on the top to help out, and that means leaving a flank open completely to the other team's big heavies (unless its consisted of all t-59s). The t-59s themselves aren't hard to deal with individually, but its just that nothing on the lower tiers can scratch them effectively.

Thankfully most t-59 drivers are reckless and so I can punch holes in them easily with a big enough gun like the L88 or 105.

The problem with T-54/tier 9 packs is that they're so much more mobile and faster than t-59s and they hit harder. It takes like 6-7 whole rounds from a tiger II to put down most t-9s, and 4-5 good hits from an IS-4. So when they've scooted past the front lines, it usually means your arty is fucked.
 

Skott

Diamond Member
Oct 4, 2005
5,730
1
76
I've seen groups of five and six T59s completely get beat bad by a team of defensive tanks. That is the #1 best strategy against a wolf pack of any kind. Defense! I myself have been in a large group of T59s and get my ass kicked. You get over confident thinking the match is already over and then the next thing you know you are doing stupid noob things like getting over extended or not working together properly or just out right getting in each others way. Yeah, I have seen experienced T59 drivers do stupid things. I've done them myself too. Its a human thing. LOL

Thing is. I remember before the gold tanks came into the game people lamented about groups of T-44s. Then when the T-54 came out people whined about how they were OPed especially when grouped up. Then the Lowe came onto the scene. Again people complained. Then they started laughing at how dumb Lowe players were. Get four Lowes or more on a team and the joke was that they had already loss because everyone knew how to kill the Lowe and the players didn't know how to play. To be honest when I see a group of T-59s I start to think of that joke because I have seen groups of T-59s totally lose a fight because they acted like they had no clue and just kamikaze in and get taken down one by one.

I'm not saying a group of T-59s is easy to beat. Just saying it can be done and I've seen it done. I've been on both sides of this fight. It can be done.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
Tell me how many times you dogfight a t-59 in a Vk3601, 3002 DB, t-43 or a T-20 and come out on top.

You can stop them but it can be but it's very difficult in a tier 6 vehicle or 7, especially in german vehicles because the 88 is so underwhelming for its tier. russian tanks get the 100/107/122/152mm early on so they have better fighting chances than their american/german counterparts.

T-59s are "bully" type vehicles in that they perform poorly against equal and higher tier tanks but are very good at slaughtering low tiers. Sure, if you have damage sponges (m6, Kv-3) while big guns pick them off then you'll be in good shape. But getting that occasion where your team's lowe/tiger II doesn't get swarmed and knocked out first is extremely rare.
 

Skott

Diamond Member
Oct 4, 2005
5,730
1
76
Last night after work I finally pulled my T-50-2 out of the garage and started grinding on it. Man, that is a fast tank and nimble as hell. It can take some hits and keep going. It can turn lightning fast too. From what I have read there are two main ways to equip and use this tank. There is the fast scout way. Vents, rammer, coated optics, or repair kit. Then there is the sneaky scout way. Vents, coated optics or binocular telescope, and camo net. The fast scout is the more popular use, and its the one I'm doing, but there seems to be a number of individuals that say it can hide well with a camo net and spot effectively. Eventually I plan to try it and see for myself. I'll wait till I get the tank and crew maxed out first though. Its a fun tank to play in.
 

eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
0
vk3601 vs type59 is tier6 vs tier8. I'd have to be some kind of ninja to come out on top. Though I did almost solo a typ59 in my jumbo sherman once.

But if I'm with another tank I'll be just fine. The short88 (or M1A1/A2 in the Sherman series) can pen the type59 from the side or rear just fine. So with someone else around I can do the flanking thing and put the hurt on. That said I prefer to fire at 59s with exposed sides/rear from longer distances.

Yeah 1v1 the type59 picks apart tanks like the vk3601. Most def. And I hate it for that reason. But outside of that, you can do all right.

edit: bought a tiger I. Here goes nothing...
edit2: and immediately into a tier10 match! Good thing my gun can damage those guys... not. Yeah, that was fucking bullshit. Still have the same short88 as the vk3601 so I was just faced with 100% tanks that I can't damage frontally. And you can't really flank on that fuckass map with the 'island' (blocked by tank obstacles on one side) in the middle. So my mouth breathing retard team charges the center & 10 tanks die to 2 Maus. fucking idiots.
 
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stag3

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2005
3,623
0
76
i have on my T-50-2
rammer (when you get to arty you need all the shots you can make quickly)
vents (dunno, have on all my tanks)
coated optics

most of the time i will get to the 1/2 way point of the map and park in a bush lighting up for arty. then i will make a dash to their arty a minute or two after that. seems to work well.

i can see a point wanting binocs instead of vents, so you can spot while hidden and on the move tho.
 
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Skott

Diamond Member
Oct 4, 2005
5,730
1
76
Tell me how many times you dogfight a t-59 in a Vk3601, 3002 DB, t-43 or a T-20 and come out on top.

You can stop them but it can be but it's very difficult in a tier 6 vehicle or 7, especially in german vehicles because the 88 is so underwhelming for its tier. russian tanks get the 100/107/122/152mm early on so they have better fighting chances than their american/german counterparts.

T-59s are "bully" type vehicles in that they perform poorly against equal and higher tier tanks but are very good at slaughtering low tiers. Sure, if you have damage sponges (m6, Kv-3) while big guns pick them off then you'll be in good shape. But getting that occasion where your team's lowe/tiger II doesn't get swarmed and knocked out first is extremely rare.

I can't speak about the VK3601 against them because I haven't used one against a T-59. I have used the other tanks though so I can say this, use cover and team work. Track the T-59. That is the first thing you need to do if you can. Track them so they can't move. A sitting T-59 is a big paper weight. Now they will use their repair kit so you really should hit their track sprocket more than once if you can. Once they have blown their repair that first time they don't get to use it again. Mobility is the T-59s greatest asset. Take it away from them and they are not as tough.

Tracking a T-59 is not always easy. Especially from range. They will want to come into close to you because thats what they typically like to do when flanking. Granted some T-59 players like to fire from range but many like to come in close and dogfight or brawl. In this situation use cover. Rocks and blown tanks work well. You are playing peek a boo with him and ring around the whatever is your cover basically. Try and track him first. Aim for his rear and side turret. T-59s are prone to ammo racks. Used to be that machine gun on top was weak and did damage but they patched that now supposedly. Driver's hatch and commander's hatch are still vulnerable and weak though. Depending on your tank's armor stay at certain angles if you can when facing one. One trick I use. Move your turret and body like a twitching bug. Its funny as hell to watch but it does actually help at times. Makes it harder for the enemy to hit your vital spots. Stay near team mates so they can join in on the fight. Try and keep that protective cover between you and him. The T-59 prefers you in the open and if he's sitting there or having to move slowly around something he is more vulnerable to enemy fire.

Not saying its easy but it can be done. I even killed a T-59 with my slugger in a dogfight just last weekend. The Slugger is a slow moving pig too. It cannot maneuver fast enough against most other tanks. Granted the other guy was not playing well. Don't know if he was over confident, noob, both, or what but I manged to do the dance with him and win. It helps that a slugger can bounce shells at times and a 90mm that can hurt up close if you get in front of it. Plus I know the T-59s weak spots since i own and use one.

Now if you get two on you its pretty much a forgone conclusion you are going to lose. But that is true in many situations where you face two enemy tanks that know what they are doing and have you isolated and alone from friendly help. Best you can do is try and hurt them as much as you can so they are weaker against the next guy. I usually just concentrate on one of them the most. Sometimes I can even kill one if its damaged enough to begin with.

That is my quick advice and tips for fighting the T-59.
 

stag3

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2005
3,623
0
76
LOL i hated my tiger grind
i'm not liking the KT grind much either but it's WAY better than the tiger and tiger P grind.
 

Daverino

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2007
2,004
1
0
VK4502A is the ultimate T59 killer. The 105 is too strong for the T59 to deal with and it has the speed and agility to dogfight it and then finish it off when it tries to escape. IS-3 is also very effective at taking out T59s.

I have little problem with the T59 in a Panther because I won't play the T59's game. The Panther is meant to fight at arms length. Although the 75/L100 doesn't do much damage per hit, it will reliably penetrate the T59's hull from any angle. A Panther can easily out-snipe the T59 and if the T59 tries to charge, it will be crippled before it can get me into a dogfight. If it does come down to a dogfight, the Panther's ROF is extremely high and you need to concentrate on tracking shots. Once he's tracked, you can get on his flank and rear and DPS him to death.

The hardest tanks to use against the T59 are high alpha, low ROF tanks. I particularly dread them in my Ferdinand. The reason is that they have a good chance of bouncing a shell and wasting your shot. No other T8 medium can take a 128 from a Ferdi and have a good chance of walking away clean. P2, T44 and Pershing will all take big hit. If it's a wolfpack of T59s, I need to be exceptionally careful to stay way the hell away.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
see, that's the point. 1v1 t-59s are dog food. When there's 4 of them rushing down one side though, it's incredibly hard to deal with even for big tanks that can pen them reliably like KTs or Lowes, even Jagdtigers. I can walk away from one relatively unscathed in my panther 2 if we're dogfighting, and I know all the weak spots... but the problem in hand is having a t-59 wolf pack slam into your team that is made up of mostly tier 6-7s. Even playing defense will cripple your ranks.

1v1? T-59 is comparatively weak in those cases. When you have 3 of them driving all over the place chewing you up... that's the problem. End result is whichever team has more t-59s that pack together usually wins.
 

stag3

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2005
3,623
0
76
End result is whichever team has more t-59s that pack together usually wins.

right there is the problem, i also hate when it gives 1 side the maus and 2 E100's
while the other side gets a T30 and 2 is-7's

what kinda bs is that LOL, even it out
 

Maximilian

Lifer
Feb 8, 2004
12,604
15
81
For the balance method wargaming use to be effective they need to stack as many tanks of the same type on one side as they can.

They do balancing based on overall win/loss ratio of a tank type which only works if its 2 IS7's vs 2 maus, it wouldn't give out any accurate result if it was fair with IS7 + maus vs IS7 + maus.

Not defending the system or anything its pretty lame but that's why all tanks of a type are often stacked onto one side.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
I know they switched it to win/loss ratio but I didn't expect it to be that ridiculous. Is that why I'm getting so many window lickers on my team? God forbid I do well, now I'm expected to carry the team to victory as well?
 

eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
0
see, that's the point. 1v1 t-59s are dog food. When there's 4 of them rushing down one side though, it's incredibly hard to deal with even for big tanks that can pen them reliably like KTs or Lowes, even Jagdtigers. I can walk away from one relatively unscathed in my panther 2 if we're dogfighting, and I know all the weak spots... but the problem in hand is having a t-59 wolf pack slam into your team that is made up of mostly tier 6-7s. Even playing defense will cripple your ranks.

1v1? T-59 is comparatively weak in those cases. When you have 3 of them driving all over the place chewing you up... that's the problem. End result is whichever team has more t-59s that pack together usually wins.

If there's 4 T-43s or 4 Panther IIs or 4 of anything rolling in on your tier 6/7 front, it'll be hard. This is not a strength of the type59 but rather a weakness of the lack of organization/planning of pub match teams. Your team has roughly as many tier8 tanks as their team does. Where the hell did all of those tanks go? Why are you defending a tier8 push with only lower tier tanks?

My point with the 1v1 is that tier6 tanks can do plenty of damage to the type59. Like the vk3601's short88 and the sherman M1A2 gun have solid DPS (but lame pen) that isn't really exceeded till you start talking tier8 tanks. So if you have some heavies in place to the type59s and your team is actively tracking them, the tier6/7 tanks can clean up effectively.

Yes, you'll lose a bunch of tier6/7 tanks if that's the bulk of your defense force. But I feel like 6 tier6 tanks traded for 4 tier8 tanks is reasonable.

As mentioned above, track them and/or ram/facehug with heavies. Lower tier tanks need to either keep moving to flank or use cover effectively (including shielding yourself from other type59s with the body of the 59 you're engaging now). Keep them tracked & don't stop moving/shooting if you're going the flanking route.

They're a relatively small number of tanks cut off from their team. Halt the advance & then envelope them. Wait till they're deep enough in your territory to hit with vastly superior numbers. If you could just barely defend them with say 6 tanks, then with 8 or 10 tanks you'll fucking rape them.

And yeah then your team didn't get to move into their fav spots before the enemy could. But that's a tactical trade-off. They traded material strength for space. So I'd suggest having slow/high alpha tanks digging in while faster tanks exploit the weakest part of the enemy line. The maps are big; they won't be able to halt your advance with a bunch of their high tier tanks dead.

The problem is that retard pub match kiddies like to take them on 2 or 3 at a time and get raped. Or the low tier players will try to play peekaboo and get raped b/c they can't pen the front armor. Or they run out to flank but stop moving once they have a "good" spot and get raped. Or they run into the middle of the type59 group and get raped. People are just fucking stupid.

edit: a prime example of fucking retards happened to me today. I was on the receiving end though so it was hilarious. Tier6 match on Mountain Pass (snowy northern mountain road); I was in my Sherman E2 starting in the bottom right. My team decides to rush west. I go north to cover the eastern flank hoping to buy time for our rushers (durrr) if the enemy pushes that flank. I was joined by a leopard and a T-50. They prob planned on doing a scouting run until 1 M7, 1 T-34/85, 1 T-34, 2 T-28, 1 M4, 1 vk3601 show up. M7 is way out in front and I pick him off (machine gun M1A2 woot). T-28 runs out into open ground. Killed. Then the rest peek out and drill shells into my frontal armor... none of them can penetrate reliably but they keep shooting. I don't even have to aim b/c there are so many targets--just shoot and I'll hit something. Then the vk3601 makes a break for it, and I"m like SHIT. I fire twice at him for no damage () and he's got a perfect shot on my weak side armor now. But... he keeps driving! Clearly the T-50/leopard are bigger threats! So I retreat behind rocks and just drill shells into his rear armor. In the meanwhile, the remaining T-28, M4 and T-34/85 are taking pot shots at the light tanks from around the corner... instead of coming out to rape me. So I drive back out and kill them all. 1.8k exp, 50k credits. With a 7:1 advantage if they just rode out and surrounded me, I would've been completely fucked. But instead they were retards. This kind of lack of thinking is why type59 pushes are hard to beat.

I know they switched it to win/loss ratio but I didn't expect it to be that ridiculous. Is that why I'm getting so many window lickers on my team? God forbid I do well, now I'm expected to carry the team to victory as well?

Wait what? Seriously? That would explain a lot. Since getting elite on my vk3601, my win ratio was something like 70% on pub matches pre-7.0 (I was at a 50% win ratio before elite; then steadily moved up to 60%). Now it's much worse. And I find myself getting fucking pissed at my team way more often than before. Weak.
 
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PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
If there's 4 T-43s or 4 Panther IIs or 4 of anything rolling in on your tier 6/7 front, it'll be hard. This is not a strength of the type59 but rather a weakness of the lack of organization/planning of pub match teams. Your team has roughly as many tier8 tanks as their team does. Where the hell did all of those tanks go? Why are you defending a tier8 push with only lower tier tanks?

Problem is with 4 t-44s or 4 panther IIs, you're likely to have tier 9 and tier 10 support and lots of it because those tanks are weighted very heavily. I won't even mention how squishy they are compared to T-59s... T-44 is literally a walking ammo rack.

T-59's matchmaking pits them at the top for the most part, so 90% of the time your defense is going to be made up of tier 6-7s (also tier 5s...), and the mobility for the T-59s mean if your top tanks are heavies they won't be able to respond unless they're already right there.

So it still goes back to the whole "whoever has more t-59s usually win unless they really suck", and it's not uncommon to see 4-5 T-59s per side per game.
 

Daverino

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2007
2,004
1
0
The issue (I won't call it a problem) with wolfpacking is that it gives one team a higher level of coordination than the other. Let's face it, in a pub match the usual thought process goes something like this:

1. Map loads.
2. Remember good things and bad things on the map.
3. Immediately go where good things happened last time and assume that will happen again.

Most pubs are won or lost in the first 30 seconds based on where everyone decided to go. You are split up into arbitrary and non-supporting groups that then have to win their local contest in the hopes of winning overall. Wolfpacking is a phenomenon that breaks the usual rule. It's also unique to medium tanks that have the right combination of speed, power and armor to pull it off. Rarely you'll see a heavy or TD push or crush, which is the equivalent. But massed heavies are too vulnerable to arty and most TD drivers are too passive to go out to the edge of the sword. But when a team sees they have a wolfpack at the start they operate as an impromptu team. That's giving themselves a huge advantage in coordination that makes them very dangerous.

Wolfpacks aren't unique to T59s. Get 3 or 4 Easy 8s on a team and you can bet they'll wolfpack. But what is unique about the T59 is a) they're by far the most common T8 medium and b) they're premium. Since there are just so damned many of them, you see T59 packs more often than any other type of pack. Since they're premium, they're cheap to use and will make money even if you play poorly. This makes T59 drivers stupidly aggressive sometimes, especially if they're just grinding credits. WoT being what it is, stupid aggression is often very effective. If you're stupidly aggressive against the enemy side that's slow or spread out, you can do so much damage so quickly that the other team cannot recover. Most WoT players are VERY conservative, and that grows at higher tiers as expenses grow. The T59 is the single tank that breaks that mold the most.
 

eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
0
Ugh I HATE being bottom tier on super high (tier10 in this case) tier matches. HATE HATE HATE.

Especially when my inbred fuckwit team's t10 tanks decide to CHARGE THE CENTER FIELD on campinovka. Gee, I fucking wonder what will happen?!

So they're all dead. Go go gadget Tiger+short88!
 
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