MMOs/MMORPGs and Twitch or realistic/semi-realistic gameplay

[maniacalpha1-1]

As most people probably know, most MMORPGs have high hit-point characters, with heal mechanics; basically as a mask to what's really RNG combat.

Could an MMORPG work with semi-realistic combat and lower TTK (time to kill), somewhat like shooters? It could be guns, or fantasy with one hit kill wizards or semi-realistic swords where you can win in one hit with a lucky strike or pound uselessly on a shield if you're not lucky.

I realize there are some games that are like this in their mechanics but as far as I know, they are small player count games, like Chivalry. I'm talking about larger scale MMOs, such as a fantasy world same as World of Warcraft, except it's based on semi-realism and low TTK.

Could such a thing work, or would that just not fit together with the MMORPG concept?

 

[cbrunny]

I think you answered your own question.

I realize there are some games that are like this in their mechanics but as far as I know, they are small player count games, like Chivalry.

I doubt the makers of Chivalry have ever thought "well gee, lets not get any more new players and stick to being small, making less money."

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

I think you answered your own question.



I doubt the makers of Chivalry have ever thought "well gee, lets not get any more new players and stick to being small, making less money."

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing - I'm not talking about games put into arenas designed for 16-32 players or whatever Chivalry is, I'm talking about games on the order of World of Warcraft...in other words, could Everquest/WoW/Guild Wars 2/ work with semi-realistic low TTK combat?

Or could Star Wars The Old Republic with Battlefront (2015) combat? (whatever that turns out to be, but likely heavy Battlefield 4 inspiration)

 

[TheELF]

Could such a thing work, or would that just not fit together with the MMORPG concept?

Well it would enrage a lot of people if they could die in one blow from a much weaker opponent just because,luck.

 

[bystander36]

As most people probably know, most MMORPGs have high hit-point characters, with heal mechanics; basically as a mask to what's really RNG combat.

Could an MMORPG work with semi-realistic combat and lower TTK (time to kill), somewhat like shooters? It could be guns, or fantasy with one hit kill wizards or semi-realistic swords where you can win in one hit with a lucky strike or pound uselessly on a shield if you're not lucky.

I realize there are some games that are like this in their mechanics but as far as I know, they are small player count games, like Chivalry. I'm talking about larger scale MMOs, such as a fantasy world same as World of Warcraft, except it's based on semi-realism and low TTK.

Could such a thing work, or would that just not fit together with the MMORPG concept?

MMORPG's are a different type of genre. It is not based on RNG, it is based on strategic use of abilities and team work. FPS is based on more of a twitch and strategic positioning and coordination. Both genres have some randomness, but in the end, it is your ability to play that determines the outcome. Gear is another factor when it comes to RPG's.

There are MMORPG's which are more twitch like. Look at Neverwinter for an example. There is no targeting like there is in traditional RPG's, but even then, combat isn't as instant as a FPS.

People who complain about RNG, are those who have poor gear or poor strategy. If you ever played in WoW Arenas, you'd see that the better players, with better connections always won. It was amazing how accurate the ratings were as you got to the upper tiers. There was a bit of rock paper scissor action, but better players always won.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

MMORPG's are a different type of genre. It is not based on RNG, it is based on strategic use of abilities and team work. FPS is based on more of a twitch and strategic positioning and coordination. Both genres have some randomness, but in the end, it is your ability to play that determines the outcome.

There are MMORPG's which are more twitch like. Look at Neverwinter for an example. There is no targeting like there is in traditional RPG's, but even then, combat isn't as instant as a FPS.

People who complain about RNG, are those who have poor gear or poor strategy. If you ever played in WoW Arenas, you'd see that the better players, with better connections always won. It was amazing how accurate the ratings were as you got to the upper tiers. There was a bit of rock paper scissor action, but better players always won.

I wasn't complaining about RNG, I'm just saying that technically some MMORPGs use RNG or something like it, i.e. you hit Bash in EQ and based on your skillcheck vs enemy stats you get a result. I wasn't even talking about PvP (yet!); just meant that, in the system I'm referring to, if you fight an enemy NPC with a shield and you just keep hitting the shield, it may break after a while, but you're never going to hit the NPC otherwise. Whereas in a game like Everquest, a shield gives an NPC a higher chance to block but that is all.

 

[lupi]

You also have to remember that combat in these aren't an exact action occurence. Combat is expected to have the opponent actively defended themselves and when damage is done via "hit points" it means wearing down the characters stamina as much as causing damage.

 

[irishScott]

Well it would enrage a lot of people if they could die in one blow from a much weaker opponent just because,luck.

This. The whole idea of a game is the partial removal of luck, that's what makes it fun. Even gambling creates the illusion of player control. Make a game where the most powerful, dedicated player can still be killed by a single bullet (realism) and you're going to piss off anyone who invests hundreds of hours but then has to start over after 1 mistake.

Plenty of console games from the 80s and 90s that showcase the annoyance of such mechanisms, where one hit means you start all over from the beginning.

 

[KMFJD]

Darkfall tried it, i wasn't a fan of it

 

[xantub]

To me that's what adds the RPG to MMORPG. Of course you can make MMOS (MMO Shooters) and different genres, but the fact that it's your character's abilities and not your own's what determines the success of actions is part of the 'RPGness'.

But I believe there has been MMOs like what you described already.

 

[bystander36]

I wasn't complaining about RNG, I'm just saying that technically some MMORPGs use RNG or something like it, i.e. you hit Bash in EQ and based on your skillcheck vs enemy stats you get a result. I wasn't even talking about PvP (yet!); just meant that, in the system I'm referring to, if you fight an enemy NPC with a shield and you just keep hitting the shield, it may break after a while, but you're never going to hit the NPC otherwise. Whereas in a game like Everquest, a shield gives an NPC a higher chance to block but that is all.

RNG just means you rely on a random number generator, but all games use the random number generator. The main thing that is different with an RPG, MMO or otherwise, is your gear and level play a large roll in the outcome and as you pointed out, combat takes longer, and is less twitch. That said, modern RPG's are getting far more twitchy as time has passed.

 

[DarkWarrior2]

Planetside 2... you can kill or be killed pretty quick. Although it's more FPS than RPG.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Planetside 2... you can kill or be killed pretty quick. Although it's more FPS than RPG.

That's 100% shooter...no NPCs to get lore info from, etc.

 

[asteldian]

ESO is pretty much exactly what you are talking about. There is not a passive stat for blocking or dodging, players must actively do so to prevent death and a poor timed defense could leave you dead. Unlike GW2 there is no hard restriction on these moves, instead it is all about managing your resources and designing the character right - some can block lots, others can roll a lot, some don't do either but rely on strong magical shields.
Against someone designed to have enough stamina to block near endlessly, you will never do full damage because there is no % chance of his block working or not, instead you have to counter it by using skills that force him to drop block (such as Fearing him for a few seconds) or wearing down his stamina faster (Immobilizing him will likely cause him to need to 'Break Free' which uses a lot of Stamina up). In these kinds of battles, noticing the tell tale sign that the target has run out of stamina is essential as you go in for the big hits once you know he is vulnerable.

Fight's can be silly fast if not paying attention or managing your resources, or fights can last quite a long time if decent players fight. Whether a fight is fast or long has little to do with RNG and all to do with the player.
Course, there are still heals etc. in the game, and currently PvP is only the open world zone so no 'arena battles of even numers'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0wwQ8XWuVo
At about 21 mins in he showcases a brief example of him taking on multiple players which highlights the difference between a skilled player knowing what he is doing compared to others. It's a good vid thanks to the commentary too. He has other videos showing other battles too.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

ESO is pretty much exactly what you are talking about. There is not a passive stat for blocking or dodging, players must actively do so to prevent death and a poor timed defense could leave you dead. Unlike GW2 there is no hard restriction on these moves, instead it is all about managing your resources and designing the character right - some can block lots, others can roll a lot, some don't do either but rely on strong magical shields.
Against someone designed to have enough stamina to block near endlessly, you will never do full damage because there is no % chance of his block working or not, instead you have to counter it by using skills that force him to drop block (such as Fearing him for a few seconds) or wearing down his stamina faster (Immobilizing him will likely cause him to need to 'Break Free' which uses a lot of Stamina up). In these kinds of battles, noticing the tell tale sign that the target has run out of stamina is essential as you go in for the big hits once you know he is vulnerable.

Fight's can be silly fast if not paying attention or managing your resources, or fights can last quite a long time if decent players fight. Whether a fight is fast or long has little to do with RNG and all to do with the player.
Course, there are still heals etc. in the game, and currently PvP is only the open world zone so no 'arena battles of even numers'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0wwQ8XWuVo
At about 21 mins in he showcases a brief example of him taking on multiple players which highlights the difference between a skilled player knowing what he is doing compared to others. It's a good vid thanks to the commentary too. He has other videos showing other battles too.

I haven't followed TESO, what do you mean "the open world zone"? Are there PvP servers, or can you be attacked anywhere, or only in special zones?

 

[asteldian]

Short answer is: There are 'PvP Campaigns', outside of these there is no PvP.

Long answer: You install the game either the EU or US Megaserver. Once you start playing you can travel through all of Tamriel, all of it is PvE exclusive. Like other MMOs the world is broken into different zones, again all these are PvE only.

At level 10 you gain access to Cyrodil which is a zone in the middle of the world which is fought over by the 3 different factions. To do this you open up the game menu and you get a list of Campaigns to make your 'home', these vary in duration (7 day, 14 day, 30 day) - there is one Campaign called Blackwater which is exclusively for those at lower level.
When you enter the campaign you are in a very large zone similar to the other zones in game, however there are 15 or so large keeps, a couple of outposts, as well as small dungeons. There is plenty of PvE content in the zone, however it is open PvP everywhere, so any opposing faction can kill you at any time. The zone holds approximately 250 players of each faction at once (this number may have been reduced). You can leave again whenever you want back to the safety of PvE.

 

[Subyman]

Making it more realistic by lowering health and healing would actually rely even more on RNG, because the roll on that one or two hits would be the only thing that matters. Original WoW is pretty much exactly what the OP is talking about. I remember playing when one Pyroblast would kill a level 60 with full gear. A rogue used to Ambush/Backstab and immediately kill mages. Shamans used to one shot people with wind fury procs. It was awesome and really fun. I hate how they made the combat last so long in WoW. A normal fight between relatively skilled players can last 3+ minutes. Just too long to be fun IMO.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Making it more realistic by lowering health and healing would actually rely even more on RNG, because the roll on that one or two hits would be the only thing that matters. Original WoW is pretty much exactly what the OP is talking about. I remember playing when one Pyroblast would kill a level 60 with full gear. A rogue used to Ambush/Backstab and immediately kill mages. Shamans used to one shot people with wind fury procs. It was awesome and really fun. I hate how they made the combat last so long in WoW. A normal fight between relatively skilled players can last 3+ minutes. Just too long to be fun IMO.

It can't be like a shooter, but with swords? Just like the bullet path, the path of the sword in the air determines hit or not? You either hit or you don't and the only thing between the other guy and a full damage strike is his armor, unless it breaks?

 

[gothamhunter]

it can't be like a shooter, but with swords? Just like the bullet path, the path of the sword in the air determines hit or not? You either hit or you don't and the only thing between the other guy and a full damage strike is his armor, unless it breaks?

tera, eso, gw2

 

[bystander36]

It can't be like a shooter, but with swords? Just like the bullet path, the path of the sword in the air determines hit or not? You either hit or you don't and the only thing between the other guy and a full damage strike is his armor, unless it breaks?

I don't know any MMORPG's which are like that, but you should play Gothic 3, and Risen 1. Both of those are very brutal in combat, and timing is all that matters, along with gear. Combat can be long, but only if your opponent is blocking your attacks, which is based on timing.

The truth is, RPG's are a genre that is designed with leveling and gear dependencies. They traditionally are not twitchy games, and promote teamwork and strategies over long drawn out battles. While it possible to deviate from this, it is not how RPG's are traditionally designed. This would spawn a new sub genre.

 

[Mandres]

Exactly, RPG systems are designed so you get stronger the more you play. By definition you can't have an RPG where a first time player and a veteran have the same potential to do damage. That would be a fantasy deathmatch game, not an rpg or mmorpg.

 

[clok1966]

Making it more realistic by lowering health and healing would actually rely even more on RNG, because the roll on that one or two hits would be the only thing that matters. Original WoW is pretty much exactly what the OP is talking about. I remember playing when one Pyroblast would kill a level 60 with full gear. A rogue used to Ambush/Backstab and immediately kill mages. Shamans used to one shot people with wind fury procs. It was awesome and really fun. I hate how they made the combat last so long in WoW. A normal fight between relatively skilled players can last 3+ minutes. Just too long to be fun IMO.

I'm confused, how Can one shotting a person be fun, there is ZERO skill in hitting a button and one shotting. I do understand the dislike of dragging combat out, right now as you say its almost a "tired finger losses". But there needs to be a middle ground, each side needs to feel they have a chance, a one shot kill is boring as hell if you actually want a challenge, you can still do that in WoW, go camp noobs, same exact skill level required. I would not mind a fall back to older combat where even level characters can stand with each other for maybe 20-30 seconds.

And if you really like the insta kill, forgive me feeling it takes no skill, maybe it does the way you do it. I didn't mean to judge, but I know it comes off like that.


I am not to sure what OP was looking for but Vindictus is maybe somewhat like it? Its more a Streetfighter battle, you pick the skills in real time an execute them

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

I guess I'm talking about two different things, without a clear delineation between them.

My primary focus is how hits are detected; eif someone walks up to you, hits their attack button, but their sword hits your shield, you won't be harmed. Or if you hold your own sword up and block it. Or if they do hit your armor, but it's only a light slash, then your armor's probably going to absorb that too. Compare that to typical MMORPG combat, where you could punch someone bare-fisted in full plate armor and the combat system will still let you do damage to them, because armor and weapons/fists just don't work in a realistic fashion. (ignore the possibility that you are a monk class where you actually have the ability to punch through armor)

TTK (time to kill, i.e. are there one hit kills or what) is a secondary issue. Of course it's not fun to be one hit killed, but if someone had to beat your shield out of your hand and then you get one hit killed, it's not the same as someone walking up to you and killing you in one swipe.

 

[imaheadcase]

The problem with what you said is if you don't have random elements happening in combat, its stagnate gameplay. If someone hits you with sword, and you can block it with shield..if no random aspect was in game you would hit that shield all day without damage.

One of the reasons Crit damage was added to games. Dark age of camelot for example let you block in pve with shield better than pvp, in pvp crit chance gave you ability to hit them for a damage amount, even if not normally what you would.

Random things happen so outcomes are not predetermined.

 

[bystander36]

I guess I'm talking about two different things, without a clear delineation between them.

My primary focus is how hits are detected; eif someone walks up to you, hits their attack button, but their sword hits your shield, you won't be harmed. Or if you hold your own sword up and block it. Or if they do hit your armor, but it's only a light slash, then your armor's probably going to absorb that too. Compare that to typical MMORPG combat, where you could punch someone bare-fisted in full plate armor and the combat system will still let you do damage to them, because armor and weapons/fists just don't work in a realistic fashion. (ignore the possibility that you are a monk class where you actually have the ability to punch through armor)

TTK (time to kill, i.e. are there one hit kills or what) is a secondary issue. Of course it's not fun to be one hit killed, but if someone had to beat your shield out of your hand and then you get one hit killed, it's not the same as someone walking up to you and killing you in one swipe.

Like I said, you should play Gothic 3 (with community patch) and Risen 1. Both have a system like this. It is a lot more brutal, and can be frustrating as you learn the timing, but blocking and dodging are 100% damage reductions.

Now in real life, a person hitting a shield may not do harm, but it can wear you out. The above 2 games, written by the same dev's, drains your stamina when you are hit while blocking, and when you lose your stamina, you don't block. In other games, they don't use stamina that way, and just have you get worn down by your health bar. A health bar isn't realistic either. It is just a way to visualize how you are doing in the battle.