Mod Sponsored Community Poll - Your Input is Requested

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
You are not a Mod as per Administrator IDontCare

STFU

Din`t say I was,
Never have said I was,

But I do find it funny that you are trying to silence your critics..lol

There are a boat load of posts by you above in this thread showing otherwise.

The question is does the Administrator IDontCare and/or Moderators want the report post button pushed on all your posts acting on their behalf posing as a Moderator?

Is a Moderator imposter an actionable violation or is it harassment of members?

You call it being a critic

If I acted as if I was a police officer to someone I would be arrested.

So is the role of Moderator or Administrator a joke as JediYoda is saying and anyone can pose as a Moderator or is it an Actionable violation?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Please point out where you feel they are acting as a Moderator or just getting under your skin

 

[Bowfinger]

[ ... ]
It all comes down to the community.

If posts are reported then they will be dispositioned. If everyone stands back and expects the mods to clean up the county landfill for them then its probably going to stay a dump.

The key here is reporting posts. The even-handedness tends to be self-correcting in that the system of a motivated populace tends to eliminate the bias in its own right because there are so many eyes on the same problem at that point.

Do you report any of the posts for which you expect to see "action"?

If everyone who saw a burning building decided it was someone else's job to call the fire department, the building will burn to the ground while the fire department is completely unaware.

Report the posts, that's what the feature is for.

I take fairness quite serious, and a cornerstone of fairness is consistency. ...

How do you simultaneously ensure fairness while encouraging the populace as a whole to report anything they dislike? It seems to me this tends to create an unbalanced outcome in favor of those who want to suppress opposing points of view. This seems especially problematic in highly partisan and emotional forums like P&N (and Video Cards).

I've always assumed the <Report Post> button is reserved for the most egregious violations, and for obvious administrative issues like spammers. You seem to be encouraging much more active use of the feature. My concern, to be blunt, is that a handful of self-righteous crybabies will flood you with reports for every post they dislike, while those who are more tolerant and less compelled to control others will rarely report posts. If moderation is driven primarily by reported posts, the result will almost inevitably be the squeaky wheels win.

So, if I may ask, how do you prevent that? How do you prevent a few self-appointed deputy moderators from grabbing disproportionate influence on P&N's tone and culture? How do you keep them from imposing their personal beliefs on the members as a whole? How do you preserve free and open discussions in such an environment?


Anyway, thank you initiating and encouraging this discussion. Best wishes. I think you'll have your hands full.

 

[dank69]

How do you simultaneously ensure fairness while encouraging the populace as a whole to report anything they dislike? It seems to me this tends to create an unbalanced outcome in favor of those who want to suppress opposing points of view. This seems especially problematic in highly partisan and emotional forums like P&N (and Video Cards).

I've always assumed the <Report Post> button is reserved for the most egregious violations, and for obvious administrative issues like spammers. You seem to be encouraging much more active use of the feature. My concern, to be blunt, is that a handful of self-righteous crybabies will flood you with reports for every post they dislike, while those who are more tolerant and less compelled to control others will rarely report posts. If moderation is driven primarily by reported posts, the result will almost inevitably be the squeaky wheels win.

So, if I may ask, how do you prevent that? How do you prevent a few self-appointed deputy moderators from grabbing disproportionate influence on P&N's tone and culture? How do you keep them from imposing their personal beliefs on the members as a whole? How do you preserve free and open discussions in such an environment?


Anyway, thank you initiating and encouraging this discussion. Best wishes. I think you'll have your hands full.

I'm sure overuse and misuse of the report post button will be grounds for an infraction itself. Also, just because someone reports something doesn't necessarily mean that the mods will agree it is an infraction.

 

[heymrdj]

How do you simultaneously ensure fairness while encouraging the populace as a whole to report anything they dislike? It seems to me this tends to create an unbalanced outcome in favor of those who want to suppress opposing points of view. This seems especially problematic in highly partisan and emotional forums like P&N (and Video Cards).

I've always assumed the <Report Post> button is reserved for the most egregious violations, and for obvious administrative issues like spammers. You seem to be encouraging much more active use of the feature. My concern, to be blunt, is that a handful of self-righteous crybabies will flood you with reports for every post they dislike, while those who are more tolerant and less compelled to control others will rarely report posts. If moderation is driven primarily by reported posts, the result will almost inevitably be the squeaky wheels win.

So, if I may ask, how do you prevent that? How do you prevent a few self-appointed deputy moderators from grabbing disproportionate influence on P&N's tone and culture? How do you keep them from imposing their personal beliefs on the members as a whole? How do you preserve free and open discussions in such an environment?


Anyway, thank you initiating and encouraging this discussion. Best wishes. I think you'll have your hands full.

Comes back to the flow chart. It has to be an offense to the rules. You can have an opposing minority view without being rude about it. And you can be a part of the majority without bashing the minority rudely.

A good example. I can say, in a thread regarding views of science and creation, that I personally believe the earth is 10000 years old (not saying it's true or anything, just an example here). And that post can be reported to hell and high water and it won't be a offensible post, because it is on the topic and a valid viewpoint. Now if someone comes in and says "Hey you ******* the earth is only 10 thousand ****** years old you stupid ****** ****** ******." That's obviously an offensive post looking to put down anyone that views different. As is "You christians are a bunch of stupid ****** you don't understand science ********** so shut the **** up."


Seems fairly easy to see between good and bad to me.

 

[Bowfinger]

I'm sure overuse and misuse of the report post button will be grounds for an infraction itself.

That would make sense, but I've never seen anything to suggest it's true. It would certainly help answer my questions, if so.

Also, just because someone reports something doesn't necessarily mean that the mods will agree it is an infraction.

Absolutely. That misses the point, however. It's human nature to respond to the noise and ignore the quiet. If moderation is driven primarily by what's reported, then even if moderators discount 95% of incoming complaints from the noisy minority, there's still 5% left. Meanwhile the quiet majority report few posts, even though there are substantial violations. This fuels lopsided moderation. It becomes much more challenging to ensure "fair" moderation.

 

[Bowfinger]

Comes back to the flow chart. It has to be an offense to the rules. You can have an opposing minority view without being rude about it. And you can be a part of the majority without bashing the minority rudely.

A good example. I can say, in a thread regarding views of science and creation, that I personally believe the earth is 10000 years old (not saying it's true or anything, just an example here). And that post can be reported to hell and high water and it won't be a offensible post, because it is on the topic and a valid viewpoint. Now if someone comes in and says "Hey you ******* the earth is only 10 thousand ****** years old you stupid ****** ****** ******." That's obviously an offensive post looking to put down anyone that views different. As is "You christians are a bunch of stupid ****** you don't understand science ********** so shut the **** up."


Seems fairly easy to see between good and bad to me.

It's easy if there are a small number of very black and white rules. The more rules we add and the more gray areas we create, the more subjective this becomes.

 

[dmcowen674]

It's easy if there are a small number of very black and white rules.

The more rules we add and the more gray areas we create, the more subjective this becomes.

Much like Politicians passing so many Laws.

Must AT go down the same path as the U.S.?

 

[cybrsage]

Absolutely. That misses the point, however. It's human nature to respond to the noise and ignore the quiet. If moderation is driven primarily by what's reported, then even if moderators discount 95% of incoming complaints from the noisy minority, there's still 5% left. Meanwhile the quiet majority report few posts, even though there are substantial violations. This fuels lopsided moderation. It becomes much more challenging to ensure "fair" moderation.

Agreed, and a perfect example is my thread about Who is the most batshit crazy democrat candidate? vs the thread about Who is the most batshit crazy republican candidate?

The democrat thread was created many hours after the republican thread, but was also closed down and locked many hours before the republican thread was closed down and locked. The underlying reason for the much longer time the republican one was open was due to rapid reporting of the democrat thread and no one reporting the republican thread. I eventually reported the republican one after mine was closed down, which is the only reason the republican one went away.

Not blaming the mods, they need people to report things to know what is going on. But it is a good example of what you are talking about.

Still, I am not sure what the alternative is.

 

[waggy]

Agreed, and a perfect example is my thread about Who is the most batshit crazy democrat candidate? vs the thread about Who is the most batshit crazy republican candidate?

The democrat thread was created many hours after the republican thread, but was also closed down and locked many hours before the republican thread was closed down and locked. The underlying reason for the much longer time the republican one was open was due to rapid reporting of the democrat thread and no one reporting the republican thread. I eventually reported the republican one after mine was closed down, which is the only reason the republican one went away.

Not blaming the mods, they need people to report things to know what is going on. But it is a good example of what you are talking about.

Still, I am not sure what the alternative is.

This too.

Fairness in moderation. it would be far to easy to slant the voice of the forum one way or another with moderation.

 

[dank69]

Agreed, and a perfect example is my thread about Who is the most batshit crazy democrat candidate? vs the thread about Who is the most batshit crazy republican candidate?

The democrat thread was created many hours after the republican thread, but was also closed down and locked many hours before the republican thread was closed down and locked. The underlying reason for the much longer time the republican one was open was due to rapid reporting of the democrat thread and no one reporting the republican thread. I eventually reported the republican one after mine was closed down, which is the only reason the republican one went away.

Not blaming the mods, they need people to report things to know what is going on. But it is a good example of what you are talking about.

Still, I am not sure what the alternative is.

Well it certainly couldn't be that you've annoyed so many people in your short time here that so many of them are just itching to report you, now could it?

 

[Idontcare]

That would make sense, but I've never seen anything to suggest it's true. It would certainly help answer my questions, if so.

Reporting posts is akin to calling 911.

If you abuse the 911 emergency call system then the dispatchers are going to let you know to knock it off.

In reality we have a forum here with thousands upon thousands of active members, and in the course of the past 12 months we have had maybe 3 members who over-used the report-post feature to the point where they were invited to reduce their reporting rate.

Absolutely. That misses the point, however. It's human nature to respond to the noise and ignore the quiet. If moderation is driven primarily by what's reported, then even if moderators discount 95% of incoming complaints from the noisy minority, there's still 5% left. Meanwhile the quiet majority report few posts, even though there are substantial violations. This fuels lopsided moderation. It becomes much more challenging to ensure "fair" moderation.

Again you have a functional example in real life in the 911 system. Police have a duty, a responsibility, to respond to calls of crime in action. We examine all reported posts, but some take longer than others.

Crime watch programs work for very good reasons in real life, and the same model you are worried about in your post above is the exact same model that has been in use for years in all the other subforums here at ATF.

But it is true, the community gets the subforum it deserves. If the quiet majority reports few posts then they are going to get the kind of subforum they deserve, one in which trash is everywhere to be seen. It is true in real life, the police and fire departments rely on the vigilance of the community.

Agreed, and a perfect example is my thread about Who is the most batshit crazy democrat candidate? vs the thread about Who is the most batshit crazy republican candidate?

The democrat thread was created many hours after the republican thread, but was also closed down and locked many hours before the republican thread was closed down and locked. The underlying reason for the much longer time the republican one was open was due to rapid reporting of the democrat thread and no one reporting the republican thread. I eventually reported the republican one after mine was closed down, which is the only reason the republican one went away.

Not blaming the mods, they need people to report things to know what is going on. But it is a good example of what you are talking about.

Still, I am not sure what the alternative is.

This is a prime example of how "fairness" is not instantaneous. It is a product of time, and it takes time to cover all the bases.

If you rely on a static snapshot of the system at any given moment then things will appear to be imbalanced and unfair, at that moment in time, but the system (which includes the community) tends to be self-correcting and remedies oversights and so on as a matter of fairness.

If you rely on the mods to be a "cop on every corner" while the citizen stands back and grumbles about their tax burden to support the fielding of such a police force then you are going to be perpetually unhappy. If you see a violation in action, be it a car-jacking in real life or a thread-jacking in the forums, it behooves you to be pro-active and report your observations to the authorities.

In this forum, with the VBulletin software, the mechanism for reporting your observations is the report-post feature. The

icon.

 

[Idontcare]

There are a boat load of posts by you above in this thread showing otherwise.

The question is does the Administrator IDontCare and/or Moderators want the report post button pushed on all your posts acting on their behalf posing as a Moderator?

Is a Moderator imposter an actionable violation or is it harassment of members?

You call it being a critic

If I acted as if I was a police officer to someone I would be arrested.

So is the role of Moderator or Administrator a joke as JediYoda is saying and anyone can pose as a Moderator or is it an Actionable violation?

In general the system works better the less vigilantism and the less mob rule involved.

This is why we state we want members to report posts and then walk away from the situation while letting the mods handle it, versus posting publicly and inflaming the situation with even more rhetoric and hyperbole.

I won't ever tell a member to not remind other members where the rules fall, but that member needs to recognize that there are more productive methods of ensuring the rules are being universally applied and upheld - reporting the post in question rather taking matters into their own hands is the better response.

In real life when we see a drunk driver we are guided by law enforcement to not intervene directly, rather we are guided to report the drunk driver to the police and leave it to the pros to handle the situation.

That advice applies in the forums as well. I have seen lots and lots of cases where members attempted to take matters into their own hands and it rarely turns out well.

So that's where we sit on this topic. It is not a violation of any specific rule, but it is counter-productive and thus it is generally discouraged excepting for those rare cases where something ought to be said. Suicide threads where someone might post "do it!"...obviously the mods would rather the members who are first to see that respond to it as a first-responder good samaritan would to a car accident on the highway with a burning vehicle and trapped people inside or a car that just plunged into a lake, etc.

 

[cybrsage]

This is a prime example of how "fairness" is not instantaneous. It is a product of time, and it takes time to cover all the bases.

Yeah, initially I was a bit upset for what appeared to be a very biased moderation of the forum. You explained it to me quite well, and I saw your point of view was correct. No one had bothered to report the other thread at that point (myself included) so it was not looked at.

In general the system works better the less vigilantism and the less mob rule involved.

This is why we state we want members to report posts and then walk away from the situation while letting the mods handle it, versus posting publicly and inflaming the situation with even more rhetoric and hyperbole.

This is something I need to work on. I rather enjoy further spinning up people who are already frothing at the mouth and acting stupid because of it, but it certainly does inflame the situation.

You have my public promise I will strive to not do it anymore...and to edit posts where I fail to keep the promise. Though a little coaching may be need by a mod if something I feel is not across the line is actually across the line.

 

[cybrsage]

Well it certainly couldn't be that you've annoyed so many people in your short time here that so many of them are just itching to report you, now could it?

No, it actually shows the membership of this forum is mostly liberal/DNC leaning, so they see attacks on conservatives/GOP as fine but attacks on their own group to be wrong.

IOW, basic human nature.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
Is a Moderator imposter an actionable violation or is it harassment of members?

You call it being a critic

If I acted as if I was a police officer to someone I would be arrested.

So is the role of Moderator or Administrator a joke as JediYoda is saying and anyone can pose as a Moderator or is it an Actionable violation?

In general the system works better the less vigilantism and the less mob rule involved.

I won't ever tell a member to not remind other members where the rules fall

So that's where we sit on this topic. It is not a violation of any specific rule

Wow, problem is you are promoting harassment as well as allowing Moderator imposters thereby "Mob rule" as you put it.

It's no different than posing as a Police following someone on the road with lights and siren.

 

[cybrsage]

Maybe I just missing something, but I do not really undestand what you are trying to say, dmcowen.

Can you show an example of what you mean using a few posts from here? I am not attacking you, I am just a bit lost in what you are saying.

 

[shortylickens]

Something I was told way back when.

If one has to use profanity to get ones point across; they have a poor command of the language.

Its not illegal, immoral, unethical or against the rules to have poor command of the language.
Thats why we have rules that specifically prohibit swearing and nothing else.
And those rules were relaxed a couple years ago for a reason. If people think that leniency is being abused then THATS the problem we should focus on. This is not the place to correct Americas crummy education system. People from all walks of life are allowed to join and post here. Some express themselves differently than others.

 

[heymrdj]

I see no reason to get all up on profanity, other than the fact there's no need for it to be overused here, it's supposed to be a mature community. I don't mind saying "God I fucking hate paying these shitty taxes every year". However pointing it at a member by saying "Hey I don't give two fucking shits about your dumbass fucking opinion" however, IMHO, a little excessive, not infractible, but a warning to tone it down would be warranted in my view.

But that's for the mods to decide.

 

[Idontcare]

Wow, problem is you are promoting harassment as well as allowing Moderator imposters thereby "Mob rule" as you put it.

It's no different than posing as a Police following someone on the road with lights and siren.

I can tell this topic is important to you, and that makes it important to me to better understand what it is that you are intending to communicate with this post.

Can you rephrase your concerns?

What is it that you are wanting to avoid happening in the forum in the future that you are worried the mods are going to otherwise allow to transpire based on your current understanding of the rules?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
Wow, problem is you are promoting harassment as well as allowing Moderator imposters thereby "Mob rule" as you put it.

It's no different than posing as a Police following someone on the road with lights and siren.

I can tell this topic is important to you, and that makes it important to me to better understand what it is that you are intending to communicate with this post.

Can you rephrase your concerns?

What is it that you are wanting to avoid happening in the forum in the future that you are worried the mods are going to otherwise allow to transpire based on your current understanding of the rules?

I'll push the 911 button when the concerns occur.

Contrary to the lies of the worst offenders I have never pushed that report post button the entire time I have been on AT.

We'll see what the call box does.

Question: When the button is pushed on a post. What if the offender edits the post before a Mod gets to see the post causing concern or does the button send the post somewhere intact before the offender could edit it?

Many times they make a personal attack and then edit the attack.

 

[Idontcare]

Question: When the button is pushed on a post. What if the offender edits the post before a Mod gets to see the post causing concern or does the button send the post somewhere intact before the offender could edit it?

Many times they make a personal attack and then edit the attack.

We do not sanction posts which have had the actionable contents removed prior to our arrival on the scene as it were.

If folks start abusing this caveat then of course the moderaters will alter our position on this. But it has not been much of a problem to date.

 

[JEDIYoda]

So you would say that somebody telling you do "deal with it" or "get thicker skin"...amounts to a personnal attack.....hmmm

 

[heymrdj]

Just saying, I would report it, and not comment it as to draw attention. Perhaps it could be sanctioned to allow making (not posting) a screen shot of the post just for the sake of having the proof if the mod needs it. Just don't go posting the screen shot, or quoting it or what have you. Let the trolls have their moments, they'll get toasted in the mod corner soon enough.

 

[Bowfinger]

Reporting posts is akin to calling 911.

If you abuse the 911 emergency call system then the dispatchers are going to let you know to knock it off.

In reality we have a forum here with thousands upon thousands of active members, and in the course of the past 12 months we have had maybe 3 members who over-used the report-post feature to the point where they were invited to reduce their reporting rate. ...

That's good to hear. I'm hopeful then that my concern is misplaced. Thank you.