Originally posted by: mechBgon
Someone had better inform Mr. Dell that the sky is falling and that he must recall the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Dell PowerEdge servers that have additional inline connectors in the power harness. After all, some guy with a small PSU manufacturing/rebadging company has said it's not a good idea.
That is an awfully confident statement considering you apparently have never laid eyes on what I'm talking about. Move the modular receptacles out of the PSU on a piece of wire, and you're getting the right idea, though. The contacts are not exceptionally burly, nope.Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee
Originally posted by: mechBgon
Someone had better inform Mr. Dell that the sky is falling and that he must recall the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Dell PowerEdge servers that have additional inline connectors in the power harness. After all, some guy with a small PSU manufacturing/rebadging company has said it's not a good idea.
I'm sure these Dell servers where not built and played with by a wide eyed youngsters in less than desirable working conditions.
How often are the connections made and broken in a server? Are they tiny pins at the front of the PSU?
You maybe an Elite member but your comment is out of context.
Hehe, well I was thinking about the Antec NeoPower 480 and how I really haven't seen people posting "OMG MY NEOPOWER MELTED TEH MODJOOLER PLUGS!!!!!11!!!1!!one" or anything. And they've been out a couple years. Not that they were fantastically popular, lacking sleeved cables. But I haven't been noticing any special trend towards disaster with NeoPowers, and I do spend a lot of time looking for disasters to diagnose...FUD about moduler? We will all see in several years,won't we.
Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee
Even the certifiably blind would realise JY is an unabashed PCP&C fanboy.
You are right,i'm not an IT of any strip or discription but i have repaired many monitoring comps on off-shore oil platforms and have delt with the effects of moisture/vibration.
The SCSI drives you refer to are not a rush to market cheap,quick and dirty PSU. That is my point.
My personal electrical work is done as if it wears a belt and suspenders.
A stand alone home rig being built and maintained by a novice is not techs working servers.
That's apples to oranges.
FUD about moduler? We will all see in several years,won't we.
Galvanized
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
The pins that are used in the modular plugs have a very low capacity to pass current. You?re losing power through those pins. It?s electrical resistance between the male and the female part of the pin, to the extent that the voltage drop in just the pins is equivalent to about two feet of wire. The effect is that modular power supplies, everything else being equal, are capable of about 10% less power than power supplies without modular plugs. And that?s under ideal conditions. In real life it gets worse because the pins loosen, corrode, and burn. Over time the resistance builds up. A year down the road, a guy could be running his system and all of a sudden it stops working reliably, and he has no way of knowing that the reason is because the pin inside that modular plug has become corroded or burned. This technique has been out for about six months, but people are going to find that the reliability is a massive failure point. Also, especially given the way people pull their harnesses around and tie them down, it creates a lot of stress on those pins. So instead of the pins having full 100% contact surface to surface, in most cases those pins are only touching maybe 10% or 30% of their surface area. What?s rated for 5A going through those pins, in reality if the pins aren?t making good contact, your rating?s down to maybe 3A, and with that much constriction, those pins just heat up, and it gets worse. For real pros in the industry, no way would they specify that kind of arrangement. This is a consumer-oriented gimmick.
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
My take on modular power supplies:
KISS
Anyone who has the slightest bit of engineering knowledge will know what that means, and know it does not entail having an extra connection to possibly fail for "convenience", which is highly debatable. If you are good at wiring, you will not need a modular PSU to have a clean case.
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
My take on modular power supplies:
KISS
Anyone who has the slightest bit of engineering knowledge will know what that means, and know it does not entail having an extra connection to possibly fail for "convenience", which is highly debatable. If you are good at wiring, you will not need a modular PSU to have a clean case.
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
As I stated earlier on in this thread....
I am trying to act as a moderator of sorts and point little things out that are being over looked.....
The key word is "Time"........time doesnt mean 6 months or a year down the road.
In the life of a PSU hopefully it is 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years down the road.
With that said--- we get people posting well I have had my PSU for 6 months pr 2 weekd or simply well my modular is having no issues!
Now mind you we all agree that if you are happy with what you are using thats the bottom line!
I or we are not attacking or putting down those of you who are pleased with you modular PSU!!
Quite frankly I was going to get a Sin-Tek or an OCZ modular myself before after reading and posting on various forums I said to hell with it all....
PCPC is what I will get. Mainly becuase almost every thread that asks what the best PSU is - almost always says PCPC but its expensive!
Honestly some of us are well just junkies when it comes to our toys....
Thus at times we act and don`t worry about the $$$ until the wife finds out...hehehe..lol..ouch!!
Anyways all good comments!!
Much appreciated!!!
Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
My take on modular power supplies:
KISS
Anyone who has the slightest bit of engineering knowledge will know what that means, and know it does not entail having an extra connection to possibly fail for "convenience", which is highly debatable. If you are good at wiring, you will not need a modular PSU to have a clean case.
what does that mean for us non engineer types?
Originally posted by: michal1980
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
My take on modular power supplies:
KISS
Anyone who has the slightest bit of engineering knowledge will know what that means, and know it does not entail having an extra connection to possibly fail for "convenience", which is highly debatable. If you are good at wiring, you will not need a modular PSU to have a clean case.
because its obivous that all modular power supplies are slapped togther with no engineering at all. then sent to certifiation agencys with stacks of cash attached to assure they pass
Originally posted by: Operandi
Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
My take on modular power supplies:
KISS
Anyone who has the slightest bit of engineering knowledge will know what that means, and know it does not entail having an extra connection to possibly fail for "convenience", which is highly debatable. If you are good at wiring, you will not need a modular PSU to have a clean case.
what does that mean for us non engineer types?
It means if you aren't qualified to form an opinion on something you probably shouldn't.
Originally posted by: michal1980
Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy
My take on modular power supplies:
KISS
Anyone who has the slightest bit of engineering knowledge will know what that means, and know it does not entail having an extra connection to possibly fail for "convenience", which is highly debatable. If you are good at wiring, you will not need a modular PSU to have a clean case.
because its obivous that all modular power supplies are slapped togther with no engineering at all. then sent to certifiation agencys with stacks of cash attached to assure they pass
It's pretty easy to certification. Even junk like the X-Connect and Aspire has passed several different agencies certifications tests; it's by no means a sign of quality.
Originally posted by: mechBgon
Someone had better inform Mr. Dell that the sky is falling and that he must recall the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Dell PowerEdge servers that have additional inline connectors in the power harness. After all, some guy with a small PSU manufacturing/rebadging company has said it's not a good idea.
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: mechBgon
Someone had better inform Mr. Dell that the sky is falling and that he must recall the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Dell PowerEdge servers that have additional inline connectors in the power harness. After all, some guy with a small PSU manufacturing/rebadging company has said it's not a good idea.
manufacturing/rebadging company .....?
Is there something I need to know about PCPC?
At present time PCPC makes all there own PSU`s!
If you like you can even take a tour of there factory.....Carlsbad, Calif.
Also as of this time they do not make PSU`s for a different company other than there own!
Rumor has been floating around for some time that PCPC also makes the PSU`s for Seasonic.
That is so far from the truth.
Anyways if there is something please posts links and such...
I always like to learn new things!!
Originally posted by: rickn
Originally posted by: michal1980
While I still stand behind my comment that the reason ppc is attacking the modular power supplies because they do not make them.
I agree, they don't have one, so they gotta knock everyone else. I espeically believe it after that guy went off on some wild "corrosion" tangent. Molex connectors have been used for many many years, I've never had one corrode. so that's a load of boloney
Originally posted by: michal1980
I just do not see it as being a factor at ALL. just compare the surface, area. sure there will be SOME restance, but the way this guy is putting it, we would not be able to use our outlets at home with like a hair drier because of the connection.
I think that people that do not see this PCPC 'atricle of fact' as what it real is (marketing) are just being stupid, with a big S.
why? to get all the certifications, UL, CE, and the EU approvals these psu would have to pass strict tests, not only to comply with local power requirments but also with safety.
if the restance between the modular pins was so high it casues fires, huge efficencys loses, etc, they would fail.
a company like antec that released a modular power supply, but in some good engineering time in picking connectors that offered very low restance, and did not corrude. I still have yet to find a pin on any of my power supplies that has corruded. also we are not taling about HUGE draws here, a 500 watt power supply if it ran all its power down one cable at 12 volts would melt the line, (about 41.6 amps). but its not doing that, a normal split, lets say u have a mobo line, (4 roughly,) would already split that, to about 14 amps a wire. we all know that these are futher split amoung various other calbes, roughly (going from memory here) but just to the mobo, the 4 plug gets 2 12v, the 24 if i rember gets about 2 if not more, 4 lines right there, 1 for a hard drive line, 1 for a dvd drive. 1 for the video, at least 7 lines, right there you only have 6 amps a line. given dc voltage u could use cable probably half as thick as what most power supplies used.
and thats at full load in theory, given that to get close to that you would need 2 video cards. so 2 lines, one going to each. you amps per line does to roughly 5. at 12volts that 60 watts.
theres no way that the restance between the plug/pin is even close to 1 ohm, and at 1 ohm the plug would lose 5 watts of enegery, and 1/2 restance only about 1 watt of energy. (at 5 amps a line), and a 1/4 ohm restance your plug would lose .3 watts of energy.
give my 8 line set up, with a 1/4 ohm restance, your total lose due to the plugs would be about 2.5 watts. WOW all that power lost.
PCPC is just wrong on this issue, plain and simple.
they make good power supplies at a very high cost.
they would do everything to attact new products for which they do not have a response to.
at one point in time the swiss would not make a watch with quartz timing because they belived there gears would keep time better...
Originally posted by: 2kfire
Originally posted by: michal1980
I just do not see it as being a factor at ALL. just compare the surface, area. sure there will be SOME restance, but the way this guy is putting it, we would not be able to use our outlets at home with like a hair drier because of the connection.
I think that people that do not see this PCPC 'atricle of fact' as what it real is (marketing) are just being stupid, with a big S.
why? to get all the certifications, UL, CE, and the EU approvals these psu would have to pass strict tests, not only to comply with local power requirments but also with safety.
if the restance between the modular pins was so high it casues fires, huge efficencys loses, etc, they would fail.
a company like antec that released a modular power supply, but in some good engineering time in picking connectors that offered very low restance, and did not corrude. I still have yet to find a pin on any of my power supplies that has corruded. also we are not taling about HUGE draws here, a 500 watt power supply if it ran all its power down one cable at 12 volts would melt the line, (about 41.6 amps). but its not doing that, a normal split, lets say u have a mobo line, (4 roughly,) would already split that, to about 14 amps a wire. we all know that these are futher split amoung various other calbes, roughly (going from memory here) but just to the mobo, the 4 plug gets 2 12v, the 24 if i rember gets about 2 if not more, 4 lines right there, 1 for a hard drive line, 1 for a dvd drive. 1 for the video, at least 7 lines, right there you only have 6 amps a line. given dc voltage u could use cable probably half as thick as what most power supplies used.
and thats at full load in theory, given that to get close to that you would need 2 video cards. so 2 lines, one going to each. you amps per line does to roughly 5. at 12volts that 60 watts.
theres no way that the restance between the plug/pin is even close to 1 ohm, and at 1 ohm the plug would lose 5 watts of enegery, and 1/2 restance only about 1 watt of energy. (at 5 amps a line), and a 1/4 ohm restance your plug would lose .3 watts of energy.
give my 8 line set up, with a 1/4 ohm restance, your total lose due to the plugs would be about 2.5 watts. WOW all that power lost.
PCPC is just wrong on this issue, plain and simple.
they make good power supplies at a very high cost.
they would do everything to attact new products for which they do not have a response to.
at one point in time the swiss would not make a watch with quartz timing because they belived there gears would keep time better...
Going by YOUR example, 1 ohm resistance at the plug and 5 amps through the plug, that gives 25 watts lost AT THE PLUG (P=I*I*R). That's as much as a Pentium M, with no heatsink on it. More importantly though is that there would be a 5 volt drop across the connector (V=I*R)... 5 volt drop on a 12 v line. In real life, the resistance isn't that high. However, it's still MUCH more than the resistance of a soldered wire. And even though the connector may be able to handle the heat produced, there WILL be a voltage drop across the connector and low voltages are what give problems.
Example: u need to carry 5 amps over 1000 ft. Source voltage is 120 and you need 5% voltage regulation
18 gauge will handle up to 6 amps, but Voltage drop = I*R=5A*6.385 ohms/ft*1000 ft = 31.925 V. That is a 27% voltage drop. <-- NO GOOD!!!
8 gauge can handle up to 70 amps, but Voltage drop = I*R=5A*0.6282 ohms/ft*1000 ft = 3.141 V. That is a 2.6% voltage drop. <-- Good!!!
Basically, if you load a line on a modular PSU the same as a line on a regular PSU, the regular one will have better voltage regulation ON THAT LINE because of reduced resistance. Period. That DOES NOT mean modular PSUs are crap. SOME are designed with this in mind and may use larger conductors elsewhere to compensate for the increased resistance of the connector. As for the loosening, try a molex connection from a new PSU and compare to an old PSU; the old one WILL be looser. And corrosion, it CAN happen, but yeah, he's stretching it. I don't think anyone will sit there for days plugging and unplugging their connectors to the point where corrosion becomes a problem. But again, IT CAN HAPPEN, so don't say it can't.