Modular PSU`s....

[JEDIYoda]

Modular cables--- An interview with the founder and CEO of PCPC--
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/about/interview.php
Technically Speaking
What's Cooking
Computer Power User
September 2005 ? Vol.5 Issue 9
Page(s) 103-104 in print issue


Of all the components that are in a PC, power supplies have probably been the most ignored. But from Extreme Edition CPUs to SLI graphics, the power requirements of enthusiast systems in particular have recently skyrocketed. We cornered Doug Dodson, the president and founder of PC Power & Cooling, the only American power supply manufacturer and arguably the finest maker in the world, to explain some of the inside tricks of his trade and what PSU buyers should really know before buying.

by William Van Winkle

An Interview With Doug Dodson, President & Founder Of PC Power & Cooling

CPU: Modular power supplies seem to be gaining a lot of traction in the market, but PCP&C doesn?t make any modular designs. Why?
##this is one excerpt from the whole article##

Dodson: Yeah, it?s real popular, but the industry hasn?t done anything to educate people about modular plugs. The pins that are used in the modular plugs have a very low capacity to pass current. You?re losing power through those pins. It?s electrical resistance between the male and the female part of the pin, to the extent that the voltage drop in just the pins is equivalent to about two feet of wire. The effect is that modular power supplies, everything else being equal, are capable of about 10% less power than power supplies without modular plugs. And that?s under ideal conditions. In real life it gets worse because the pins loosen, corrode, and burn. Over time the resistance builds up. A year down the road, a guy could be running his system and all of a sudden it stops working reliably, and he has no way of knowing that the reason is because the pin inside that modular plug has become corroded or burned. This technique has been out for about six months, but people are going to find that the reliability is a massive failure point. Also, especially given the way people pull their harnesses around and tie them down, it creates a lot of stress on those pins. So instead of the pins having full 100% contact surface to surface, in most cases those pins are only touching maybe 10% or 30% of their surface area. What?s rated for 5A going through those pins, in reality if the pins aren?t making good contact, your rating?s down to maybe 3A, and with that much constriction, those pins just heat up, and it gets worse. For real pros in the industry, no way would they specify that kind of arrangement. This is a consumer-oriented gimmick.

Interesting article-----Yes this is old news! That still holds true todaY!!

 

[michal1980]

i would say that too if i did not sell any modular power supplies

 

[Zarubable]

Originally posted by: michal1980
i would say that too if i did not sell any modular power supplies

Actually what is being said is very accurate. But your response is very shall we say predictable given your total lack of being able to make an informed intelliegrnt comment.

 

[HardWarrior]

Very interesting indeed, and precisely the reason why I didn't go with a modular unit. I imagine it won't be long before at least some modular PSUs start to incorporate hard-to-oxidize cooper alloy in their connectors.

 

[A554SS1N]

I can't help thinking that's just a load of rubbish tbh. Many reviewers have complemented on the benefits of modular designs, never mentioning anything like this. Also, this 'rubbish' about losing power and corrosion is just scare-mongering. I'm pretty sure people won't get these problems and I believe in PSU manufacturers to use quality parts, rather than believing in some other company I've never heard of. Maybe some cheapo PSU companies will make that mistake, but I can't imagine the well-known branded companies making this mistake (at least I hope not).

 

[JEDIYoda]

You have never heard of PC Power and Cooling??
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/home/

Ask around the forums.....
They are considered the best PSU maker out there...
That is if you can afford there product!
There are othger fine PSU makers out there also!
But PCPC are considered by many even those who don`t own a PCPC PSU to be the best!

In almost all polls I have ever seen concerning what the best is usually PCPC wins hands down followed by such companies as Antec...OCZ and Seasonic....fortron..stc...

Also you may not have heard of them because they don`t advertise to heavily!

But thats ok...I never heard of some of the brands I have come in contact with in these forums!!

 

[Nirach]

A554SS1N: The Modular units haven't been out long enough for long term wear and tear to be noticed. From a technical standpoint, what's said is fairly true, although the comment about people tying their cables down was fairly subjective, the semi-technical bits about corrosion and contact points of the pins is pretty objective.
I bought a modular PSU, well, nearly did. I knew that A: the modules would get hot and that B: there would be increased resistance on the connections. I changed my order a few days back, though.

I knew that the resistance on the connections would be pretty intense in comparison to standard non-modular PSU's, but I wasn't too aware of the corrosion possability. I changed my order, because I don't have the cash to replace a PSU after only a year due to it corroding and generally messing up.

 

[A554SS1N]

I guess that I might not have heard of them because they are only in the USA, and not Britain, possibly??

It's getting me thinking now about the Antec P150 I plan to get, as it has a NeoHE which is a modular unit (completely new design though I think)... not sure what to do as the case is amazing

 

[michal1980]

While I still stand behind my comment that the reason ppc is attacking the modular power supplies because they do not make them.

as for corrosion? what complete and total BS. how many of us have power supplies, how many of our connectors has corroded . hmm I have power supplies that are 15 years old, and where dirt cheap brands. And have hmm, 0 corrosion. While they might add SOME resistance, the amount of resistance is miniscule. Heres one reason why, the pin is general long, round, and has a large surface area, the same connection made point to point with a wire, would only have the surface area of the wire, which is much greater then that of a pin used in a modular power supply. Given that at 10-30% of the surface area of the pin, your surface area of the pin would be greater then that of the wire.

This ppc guy is a marketing guy that will tell you whatever you need to hear so that you buy there product. I?m not saying there stuff is not the best, but marketing is marketing, if you don?t have something your competition does, one way to get around it is to say its bad.

This is how smart you guys think you are.. I just made a quick, and very valid point, yet in my pm box i get this very smart reply...

"hahah you stoppid d!ck head...you dont know f(word) about modular PSU`s" thanks Zarubable

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: michal1980
While I still stand behind my comment that the reason ppc is attacking the modular power supplies because they do not make them.

as for corrosion? what complete and total BS. how many of us have power supplies, how many of our connectors has corroded . hmm I have power supplies that are 15 years old, and where dirt cheap brands. And have hmm, 0 corrosion. While they might add SOME resistance, the amount of resistance is miniscule. Heres one reason why, the pin is general long, round, and has a large surface area, the same connection made point to point with a wire, would only have the surface area of the wire, which is much greater then that of a pin used in a modular power supply. Given that at 10-30% of the surface area of the pin, your surface area of the pin would be greater then that of the wire.

This ppc guy is a marketing guy that will tell you whatever you need to hear so that you buy there product. I?m not saying there stuff is not the best, but marketing is marketing, if you don?t have something your competition does, one way to get around it is to say its bad.

The resistance is not minuscule, it's a real issue. The wire is always going to have less resistance then interconnects it goes through.

Modular PSUs are a tradeoff, you get added convenience at the cost efficiency and reliability.

 

[scrawnypaleguy]

While the PCP&C guy's argument is probably based on truth (I'm not going to pretend that I know what he's talking about) but all that I know is that my modular PSU has been working perfectly fine for the past 3 months or so since I built my new rig, and I much prefer the convenience of fewer cables over the possibility that sometime in the vague future my psu might fail. As this is a possibility with all PSU's, I'm not going to pay much attention to it. I think others are right in saying that this is just scare tactics from PCP&C since they don't have a modular model.

 

[TraumaRN]

Originally posted by: Operandi

Originally posted by: michal1980
While I still stand behind my comment that the reason ppc is attacking the modular power supplies because they do not make them.

as for corrosion? what complete and total BS. how many of us have power supplies, how many of our connectors has corroded . hmm I have power supplies that are 15 years old, and where dirt cheap brands. And have hmm, 0 corrosion. While they might add SOME resistance, the amount of resistance is miniscule. Heres one reason why, the pin is general long, round, and has a large surface area, the same connection made point to point with a wire, would only have the surface area of the wire, which is much greater then that of a pin used in a modular power supply. Given that at 10-30% of the surface area of the pin, your surface area of the pin would be greater then that of the wire.

This ppc guy is a marketing guy that will tell you whatever you need to hear so that you buy there product. I?m not saying there stuff is not the best, but marketing is marketing, if you don?t have something your competition does, one way to get around it is to say its bad.

The resistance is not minuscule, it's a real issue. The wire is always going to have less resistance then interconnects it goes through.

Modular PSUs are a tradeoff, you get added convenience at the cost efficiency and reliability.

QFT

Maybe he's overreaching with the corrosion statement but think if modular PSU's go mainstream, I dont know about you but most people NEVER check the inside of their case, what I'm thinking is: connection becomes slightly loose + dust bunny + electricity=very bad things

Either way I'm satisfied with my Tagan non modular PSU 12v rail is at 12.03, 3.3 is at 3.37 and the 5v is at 4.99. Not too shabby

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

Read the whole interview and there was no marketing or grandstanding for me to find.

My PSUs? Fortron, Works Power and Zippy.

As a pin connection goes bad resistance builds heat, the heat causes the female to loose what little spring action it has on the male pin,this causes greater resistance=more heat=more resistance=more heat etc, then on day nothing. But before that low voltage will cause it's own set of problems. The pins used in most modulars are much smaller than the 8pin ATX and much smaller than the 4pin Molex. Great idea, lets not only use steel stranded wiring, lets put a bottle neck right at the back of the PSU, then throw in a twinkeling fan and when the bottom falls out we can just reorganized under a new brand
name. Sound familiar?

I like what he had to say about fanless, LED fans, temp.testing and ratings of PSUs.
Thanks for the post OP. Saved to be posted again sometime.

The Zippy may have a noticable fan but it does have 18AWG fine stranded copper wiring to everything. Most PSUs use fine stranded steel wiring, some use 20AWG. We all know why($).


Galvanized

EDIT: If PCP&C wanted to go modular they would probably do it as it's done on aircraft.
Proper lockable connections filled with dielectric grease but that would add to the already high cost and most consumers would revolt at the grease used in proper gang plug connections.(not going to look up the right term)

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: scrawnypaleguy
While the PCP&C guy's argument is probably based on truth (I'm not going to pretend that I know what he's talking about) but all that I know is that my modular PSU has been working perfectly fine for the past 3 months or so since I built my new rig, and I much prefer the convenience of fewer cables over the possibility that sometime in the vague future my psu might fail. As this is a possibility with all PSU's, I'm not going to pay much attention to it. I think others are right in saying that this is just scare tactics from PCP&C since they don't have a modular model.

It's not "scare attics" it's underlying the downfalls of the modular concept. It doesn?t make or break a PSU in my opinion but it's not with it's flaws. Besides if PCP&C wanted a modular PSU it would take them all of 15mins to come up with a design, it's not at all complicated.

PCP&C is not the only one that hasn't jumped on the modular bandwagon. Neither Seasonic or Forton offer one, the two best names in PSU's beside PCP&C.

 

[michal1980]

Originally posted by: Operandi

Originally posted by: michal1980
While I still stand behind my comment that the reason ppc is attacking the modular power supplies because they do not make them.

as for corrosion? what complete and total BS. how many of us have power supplies, how many of our connectors has corroded . hmm I have power supplies that are 15 years old, and where dirt cheap brands. And have hmm, 0 corrosion. While they might add SOME resistance, the amount of resistance is miniscule. Heres one reason why, the pin is general long, round, and has a large surface area, the same connection made point to point with a wire, would only have the surface area of the wire, which is much greater then that of a pin used in a modular power supply. Given that at 10-30% of the surface area of the pin, your surface area of the pin would be greater then that of the wire.

This ppc guy is a marketing guy that will tell you whatever you need to hear so that you buy there product. I?m not saying there stuff is not the best, but marketing is marketing, if you don?t have something your competition does, one way to get around it is to say its bad.

The resistance is not minuscule, it's a real issue. The wire is always going to have less resistance then interconnects it goes through.

Modular PSUs are a tradeoff, you get added convenience at the cost efficiency and reliability.

I just do not see it as being a factor at ALL. just compare the surface, area. sure there will be SOME restance, but the way this guy is putting it, we would not be able to use our outlets at home with like a hair drier because of the connection.

I think that people that do not see this PCPC 'atricle of fact' as what it real is (marketing) are just being stupid, with a big S.

why? to get all the certifications, UL, CE, and the EU approvals these psu would have to pass strict tests, not only to comply with local power requirments but also with safety.

if the restance between the modular pins was so high it casues fires, huge efficencys loses, etc, they would fail.

a company like antec that released a modular power supply, but in some good engineering time in picking connectors that offered very low restance, and did not corrude. I still have yet to find a pin on any of my power supplies that has corruded. also we are not taling about HUGE draws here, a 500 watt power supply if it ran all its power down one cable at 12 volts would melt the line, (about 41.6 amps). but its not doing that, a normal split, lets say u have a mobo line, (4 roughly,) would already split that, to about 14 amps a wire. we all know that these are futher split amoung various other calbes, roughly (going from memory here) but just to the mobo, the 4 plug gets 2 12v, the 24 if i rember gets about 2 if not more, 4 lines right there, 1 for a hard drive line, 1 for a dvd drive. 1 for the video, at least 7 lines, right there you only have 6 amps a line. given dc voltage u could use cable probably half as thick as what most power supplies used.
and thats at full load in theory, given that to get close to that you would need 2 video cards. so 2 lines, one going to each. you amps per line does to roughly 5. at 12volts that 60 watts.
theres no way that the restance between the plug/pin is even close to 1 ohm, and at 1 ohm the plug would lose 5 watts of enegery, and 1/2 restance only about 1 watt of energy. (at 5 amps a line), and a 1/4 ohm restance your plug would lose .3 watts of energy.

give my 8 line set up, with a 1/4 ohm restance, your total lose due to the plugs would be about 2.5 watts. WOW all that power lost.

PCPC is just wrong on this issue, plain and simple.
they make good power supplies at a very high cost.
they would do everything to attact new products for which they do not have a response to.

at one point in time the swiss would not make a watch with quartz timing because they belived there gears would keep time better...

 

[Fullmetal Chocobo]

I read the article in CPU (4 year running supscription). They started having issues a bit like this with the Slot 1 P2. The modders and upgraders were pulling them in and out, and the contects were coming under too much stress and traffic, and they started having problems with them. I wouldn't trust something that delivers power to have more contact points than necessary...

 

[JEDIYoda]

to try to sum up all these responses is well lets say no small task!!

First of all lets all agree to disagree.....

Whats important is that you all are happy with the PSU that you presently own!!

Several comments come to mind...

As was said earlier in this thread if PCPC did want to do a modular they would have done it in a way that would work but would also in my opinion cost alot more money than there present PSU`s!!

If PCP&C wanted to go modular they would probably do it as it's done on aircraft.
Proper lockable connections filled with dielectric grease but that would add to the already high cost and most consumers would revolt at the grease used in proper gang plug connections.(not going to look up the right term)

There is also a British company I can`t think of there name right now who has a different take on the modular connectors going to the PSU. They actually use a threaded plug to plug there cable into the PSU.

Then we have those who imply that the only reason PCPC has no modular PSU`s is becuase quite frankly they don`t have the expertise.....
We all know that if the people at PCPC were to present a modular unit it would IMO a radical departure from the present way of connecting the cables to the PSU!

Then we have the old scare tactic theorie....why would the top PSU company need to use scare tactics?
If any of you read that article from start to finish you would have noticed a sincerity in Mr Dodsons answers to the questions!
Also you would have detected that he is a man of principle and I belive conviction!
In the fact that PCPC would not want to see a product that in the near or even far future was going to go bad or need to be replaced!
Can you make PSU`s of such high quality that they never go bad?
Sure....In my opinion thats what PCPC has done!
Just talk with one of there tech people--theres not a slouch in the bunch!

Then we have the all to often person who misreads or misstaes what was said.
Mr Dodson did not attack modular PSU`s!!
He stated his own feelings as well as his companies stand on what he refers to as gimmicks used to sell PSU`s!!

Finally lets just hope that in the years to come the people with modular PSU`s have no trouble or no misterious issues with Power.....

I did and still do appreciate all the comments for and against what Mr Dodson said!!!
Its good to know that a general conversation can take place without the all to common name calling and flaming!!

FYI....I was very very happy with my OKIA 420 before I started having issues with the 12v rail!!!

The bottom line is as always if your happy with what you have then the next persons latest and greatest is just that--the next persons latest and greatest!!

 

[vanvock]

Cheers JEDIYoda! Time will tell. How many modular supplies have a 5yr warranty?

 

[KoolDrew]

There is not even one well-designed modular PSU. The closest would be the Neopower, but not good enough because of its poor fan choice and its mounting.

 

[imported_drx]

Originally posted by: KoolDrew
There is not even one well-designed modular PSU. The closest would be the Neopower, but not good enough because of its poor fan choice and its mounting.

enermax liberty?

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: michal1980
While I still stand behind my comment that the reason ppc is attacking the modular power supplies because they do not make them.

I agree, they don't have one, so they gotta knock everyone else. I espeically believe it after that guy went off on some wild "corrosion" tangent. Molex connectors have been used for many many years, I've never had one corrode. so that's a load of boloney

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: rickn

Originally posted by: michal1980
While I still stand behind my comment that the reason ppc is attacking the modular power supplies because they do not make them.

I agree, they don't have one, so they gotta knock everyone else. I espeically believe it after that guy went off on some wild "corrosion" tangent. Molex connectors have been used for many many years, I've never had one corrode. so that's a load of boloney

I`m not here to take sides I`m just trying to keep things civil and answer comments with questions. If I may.....

I understand that molex connectors have been around for years.
But are molex connectors also used to connect directly in the PSU?
Yes they are..lol..I just checked!!
I was actusally going to go the OCZ modular route before on a wjim I up and ordered a PCPC PSU!!



BTW...I have known of people to complain about molex connectors corroding albeit rare it does happen.

also corrosion does take place if theres too much moisture in the air as in a high humidity but still the corrosion it would seem would be miniscue at worst case scenario.....

All is good!

 

[A554SS1N]

I'll take the risk on Antec's Modular NeoHE 430watt PSU in the P150 after consideration... It'll hopefully last me alright... I'll just wait until they sort a few other problems with it first...

 

[Nirach]

Electric conducxtion corrosion does happen. The fact that you're adding another resistance point into the line of cable isn't a good thing as it is. Even touched one of those Hiper modular PSUs after it's been operating for a while? The plugs are almost too hot to touch. That doesn't bode well for the thing adding as little resistance to the circuit as possible. As for that new Thermaltake thing.. what the hell are they thinking?!

Two, or even three, additional resistance sections?!

Sorry, but I don't have much faith in any modular design, it's putting more resistance than a straight cable, and it's not hard to disguise cables you don't need, especially with some braiding.

 

[Markbnj]

[Actually what is being said is very accurate]

Says who? So far as I can tell he is the only one saying this. Furthermore, if there are such contact problems with the modular plugs in the PSU, then what about all the other plugs and headers in the system? No problem with those? Tying back harnesses doesn't affect those?

Sounds like crap to me.