Morals Without God

[ebaycj]

Original piece here: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/morals-without-god/?src=me&ref=general

And an excerpt:

Echoing this view, Reverend Al Sharpton opined in a recent videotaped debate: “If there is no order to the universe, and therefore some being, some force that ordered it, then who determines what is right or wrong? There is nothing immoral if there’s nothing in charge.” Similarly, I have heard people echo Dostoevsky’s Ivan Karamazov, exclaiming that “If there is no God, I am free to rape my neighbor!”

Perhaps it is just me, but I am wary of anyone whose belief system is the only thing standing between them and repulsive behavior. Why not assume that our humanity, including the self-control needed for livable societies, is built into us? Does anyone truly believe that our ancestors lacked social norms before they had religion? Did they never assist others in need, or complain about an unfair deal? Humans must have worried about the functioning of their communities well before the current religions arose, which is only a few thousand years ago. Not that religion is irrelevant — I will get to this — but it is an add-on rather than the wellspring of morality.

This article seems written specifically for our own SoccerBallTux, who on many occasions (and this is a paraphrase) has reached the conclusion that religion is the only possible source of "universal" meaning. Further, without that meaning being dictated to us by religion, we would all collectively be universal assholes to each other (because then there would be no "moral" or "meaningful" difference between "eating dinner" or "getting a massage" or "exercising" or "killing your neighbor" or "raping and pillaging", all would be equally valid activities). I believe that conclusion is incorrect.

Personally, I think the article, while being an opinion piece, is very spot on in it's argument. Religion is a mere collection of rules/guidelines to live by, written down on paper, and formalized in process. We get our sense of right and wrong from a combination of our built-in conscience (from birth), as well as by observation and process refinement over the years (from society).

Thoughts?

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

If you need rules, laws, or religion to make up for your own lack of an inner moral compass, congratulations, you're a psychopath.

 

[sandorski]

If there were no FSM, I'd be raping Fetus right now!!!!!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think people are choosing to overlook the obvious. There is no objective morality.

In some societies it was perfectly acceptable to eat people.

Slavery was a matter of economics and morality wasn't something even considered until there was an effective means replacing human labor.

It is honorable to murder in certain contexts.

The theist may say that God gives reality to morals, but in that case it's a code of ethics which God would insist we obey. They aren't "real".

Likewise an atheistic view would be the same, but substituting societal consensus for God.

Morals are still a construct.

Everyone knows this.

 

[Amused]

Morality is logical, not spiritual.

We have ethics and morality for purely selfish ends. I do not want to be murdered, or robbed, or raped, therefore I vote to make these things illegal.

Morality stems from the selfish want of self preservation, and extends to the empathy we have for our fellow humans, which, again, is based on the selfish desire to not end up in their situation, so we seek to help those in need based on the fear of if we ourselves are ever in need.

Morality is pure logic and essential for a society to exist.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Morality is pure logic and essential for a society to exist.

Morality may be essential, but I'm not sure what "pure logic" means in this context.

We consider it immoral (well most of us would) to take people and cut their hearts out but the Mayans had no problem with it. It is purely logical? In the context of the society it may be, but it is by no means objective in a true sense.

 

[Acanthus]

If you need rules, laws, or religion to make up for your own lack of an inner moral compass, congratulations, you're a psychopath.

This.

If you need rules to decide not to slaughter your fellow man or take someone else's belongings... you have serious mental issues. Religion / Theism does not change this.

 

[Kadarin]

If you need rules, laws, or religion to make up for your own lack of an inner moral compass, congratulations, you're a psychopath.

This.

Most people have a conscience, and that's where real morality derives from.

 

[Amused]

Morality may be essential, but I'm not sure what "pure logic" means in this context.

We consider it immoral (well most of us would) to take people and cut their hearts out but the Mayans had no problem with it. It is purely logical? In the context of the society it may be, but it is by no means objective in a true sense.

The Mayans were illogical. Any system which does not protect the rights of ALL men is illogical and doomed to fail.

It is illogical to think one man may be sacrificial now, and you yourself will not be sacrificial later.

Morality is very objective when thought out to it's logical conclusion. It is very simply a set of rules, mutually agreed upon, to protect ourselves.

 

[Kadarin]

The Mayans were illogical. Any system which does not protect the rights of ALL men is illogical and doomed to fail.

Islam doesn't give a fuck about the rights of women. Is it doomed to fail? I hope so, but it doesn't look likely at this point.

 

[JS80]

The Mayans were illogical. Any system which does not protect the rights of ALL men is illogical and doomed to fail.

It is illogical to think one man may be sacrificial now, and you yourself will not be sacrificial later.

Morality is very objective when thought out to it's logical conclusion. It is very simply a set of rules, mutually agreed upon, to protect ourselves.

Unless you are the one in power (the priests and king). Then it is perfectly logical.

 

[Amused]

Unless you are the one in power (the priests and king). Then it is perfectly logical.

Not even then, because power is never absolute. Who is in power today, may not be in power tomorrow. To believe otherwise is illogical.

 

[Amused]

Islam doesn't give a fuck about the rights of women. Is it doomed to fail? I hope so, but it doesn't look likely at this point.

Islamic societies, and others with caste systems failed to progress because of these very things.

 

[Kadarin]

Islamic societies, and others with caste systems failed to progress because of these very things.

They are failing to progress, yes. However, Islam is expanding, so that could be considered a more important measure of "success" than improving the human condition would be.

 

[Moonbeam]

The Mayans were illogical. Any system which does not protect the rights of ALL men is illogical and doomed to fail.

It is illogical to think one man may be sacrificial now, and you yourself will not be sacrificial later.

Morality is very objective when thought out to it's logical conclusion. It is very simply a set of rules, mutually agreed upon, to protect ourselves.

Rubbish. Al Quaeda sacrifices folk all the time, folk who are willing to die because they are dying for a cause. Doubtless the Mayans who were sacrificed felt great honor because by their deaths they preserved the order of the world and fertility of live in general. To die for the good is perfectly logical. What evolves and changes in not our basic morality, but our knowledge of what it means to be good.

We no longer believe there are beings that need to be appeased with human sacrifice to maintain the order of the world. Now such sacrifice is seen as morally wrong. The same morality acted in both cases but our understanding changed.

As with monkeys, the strongest are the most generous. It is all about fear. The fearful, the self hater who is afraid to see his own self hate, these are the ones who act with evil. For them what is good is what they feel protects them. Cowards justify any evil if it makes them feel safer and the well of their fear can never be filled.

For morality to advance in the world we have to solve the problem of fear and it can only be done when humanity discovers that it destroys its children by putting them down and creating self hate. Everything we were told about ourselves being evil is a lie because evil is the illusionary product of language. There is no evil not created by words.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Morality is logical, not spiritual.

We have ethics and morality for purely selfish ends. I do not want to be murdered, or robbed, or raped, therefore I vote to make these things illegal.

Morality stems from the selfish want of self preservation, and extends to the empathy we have for our fellow humans, which, again, is based on the selfish desire to not end up in their situation, so we seek to help those in need based on the fear of if we ourselves are ever in need.

Morality is pure logic and essential for a society to exist.

But the law isn't always moral, and morality isn't always embedded in law. And many people do things because it benefits others, even at their own expense.

 

[spittledip]

Morality either is absolute or it does not exist at all. The very concept of morality is anchored in it being intrinsically absolute. When we speak of right and wrong, it is a reference to something higher that we are all under. When we hear of a murder, we do not say "that is wrong" b/c it violates some societal code or law- we have the sense that it is violating something that is more than just some standard some government set up. In this very forum section (P&N), just about every thread is filled with people claiming that their view represents what is right and opposing views represent what is wrong. And then we have a thread like this that pretends that people are not trying to claim some higher ground in other threads and that morality is just law and order. If right and wrong are as arbitrary as who gets to decide what is right and wrong, then what in the world is there to clamor about?

Make up your minds. You can't have it both ways. Either power = the determination of what is right and wrong (and thereby trampling everyone who disagrees underfoot violating any real sense of right and wrong) or morality is absolute and comes from a higher power. If you think that cultures and governments (i.e., power) decide what is right and wrong, hopefully you will realize how stupid it is to argue about the topics in P&N. Let's be logically consistent please.

 

[child of wonder]

The ancient Jews constantly stole, lied, raped, and killed until Moses brought down the Ten Commandments. Then they were like "Oi! We aren't supposed to do that! Oops!" Everyone knows this.

 

[actuarial]

When we are kids, we don't hit because our parents tell us not too.

Then we grow up and realize that if as a collective we decide not to hit, that means we ourselves won't get hit.

Eventually we decide that it's better for us not to hit, even if we are hit, because that's how we want to be treated, and that's the type of world we want to live in.

Which is the most moral reasoning? I find it offensive that Sharpton thinks so little of the common man.

 

[Harvey]

Morality is logical, not spiritual.

We have ethics and morality for purely selfish ends. I do not want to be murdered, or robbed, or raped, therefore I vote to make these things illegal.

Morality stems from the selfish want of self preservation, and extends to the empathy we have for our fellow humans, which, again, is based on the selfish desire to not end up in their situation, so we seek to help those in need based on the fear of if we ourselves are ever in need.

Morality is pure logic and essential for a society to exist.

It's deeper than that, but essentially, yes. Ethics, morality, kindness and civility make sense because the opposite is terminally self and societally destructive, as well as butt fscking ugly.

Religion can have value as a means of societal control over those too dense to grasp this, but those same people are then at the mercy of the agenda, ethics and morals of those preaching their gibberish.

Mankind needs a deity like a fish needs a pogo stick.

God created man in his image, and man, being a gentleman, returned the compliment.

~ Mark Twain

 

[JS80]

Not even then, because power is never absolute. Who is in power today, may not be in power tomorrow. To believe otherwise is illogical.

As long as the ones in power think their power is absolute and they will hold it until they die, to them it is logical. That's probably one of the reasons why in history those in power tend to be ruthless and sociopathic. Only with historical hindsight can we conclude it doesn't work.

 

[sandorski]

Morality either is absolute or it does not exist at all. The very concept of morality is anchored in it being intrinsically absolute. When we speak of right and wrong, it is a reference to something higher that we are all under. When we hear of a murder, we do not say "that is wrong" b/c it violates some societal code or law- we have the sense that it is violating something that is more than just some standard some government set up. In this very forum section (P&N), just about every thread is filled with people claiming that their view represents what is right and opposing views represent what is wrong. And then we have a thread like this that pretends that people are not trying to claim some higher ground in other threads and that morality is just law and order. If right and wrong are as arbitrary as who gets to decide what is right and wrong, then what in the world is there to clamor about?

Make up your minds. You can't have it both ways. Either power = the determination of what is right and wrong (and thereby trampling everyone who disagrees underfoot violating any real sense of right and wrong) or morality is absolute and comes from a higher power. If you think that cultures and governments (i.e., power) decide what is right and wrong, hopefully you will realize how stupid it is to argue about the topics in P&N. Let's be logically consistent please.

You are Incorrect.

 

[JS80]

But the law isn't always moral, and morality isn't always embedded in law. And many people do things because it benefits others, even at their own expense.

Classic philosophical debate of charity - do people do it to be charitable or do it to make themselves feel better?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Morality either is absolute or it does not exist at all. The very concept of morality is anchored in it being intrinsically absolute. When we speak of right and wrong, it is a reference to something higher that we are all under. When we hear of a murder, we do not say "that is wrong" b/c it violates some societal code or law- we have the sense that it is violating something that is more than just some standard some government set up. In this very forum section (P&N), just about every thread is filled with people claiming that their view represents what is right and opposing views represent what is wrong. And then we have a thread like this that pretends that people are not trying to claim some higher ground in other threads and that morality is just law and order. If right and wrong are as arbitrary as who gets to decide what is right and wrong, then what in the world is there to clamor about?

Make up your minds. You can't have it both ways. Either power = the determination of what is right and wrong (and thereby trampling everyone who disagrees underfoot violating any real sense of right and wrong) or morality is absolute and comes from a higher power. If you think that cultures and governments (i.e., power) decide what is right and wrong, hopefully you will realize how stupid it is to argue about the topics in P&N. Let's be logically consistent please.

You're confusing opinion with morality. The two are not the same. I believe Spidey is a loon in his opinions on government and politics but I don't think he's an immoral person.

 

[Moonbeam]

Classic philosophical debate of charity - do people do it to be charitable or do it to make themselves feel better?

Who is asking? There is only love. The lover has disappeared into his Beloved. There is only the radiance of love. There is only an infinite outpouring. Turn yourself on and all questions disappear. Be!