Morals Without God

[busmaster11]

Please explain.

Again, your reasoning does not reveal itself to me. One does not need to be sovereign over something in order to prove its existence.

Why restrict yourself to the 20th century? Also, this line of thought will lead nowhere as I predict you will say that man does not always fully understand God's moral absolutes if you are given an example that shows that man has committed genocide in accordance with God's teachings (or what they believe to be God's teachings).

By the way, you're supposed to prove that I'm a morally bankrupt, craven weasel of a man who won't hesitate to do evil if I think I can get away with it. Do tell.

EDIT: clarified ambiguity in wording

Again, propose me a test which will prove it to you and I'll be more than happy to prove either of those things we discussed. I'll wait.

I believe man can fully know God's moral commandments - it is in the Bible.

The 20th century part was based on the context in answering your question in regards to a discussion with CT.

Any genocide committed at the hands of "Christians" did not come from the Word of God. Man abused it for their own prideful ends. If you step outside the context of this discussion I think that makes sense to you. But what texts did we abuse to end up with the holocaust? eh?

I'll say it again. I don't aim to persuade. But for the record, I do believe that you are "a morally bankrupt, craven weasel of a man who won't hesitate to do evil if you think you can get away with it." But I also know that of myself, and my family and friends and everyone else in the world.

EDIT: the italics was not edited but quotes and bolding were added to make apparent that the comments were tongue-in-cheek verbatim copies of what Howard said.

Its ludicrous not to know that about ourselves. It's profoundly human. Its the foundation for all the tabloids, talk shows, Hollywood reality and voyeuristic shows... Western culture really...

 

[Acanthus]

ITT: We rationalize needing fantasy men to control our otherwise outlandish behavior.

 

[busmaster11]

Lots of texts have purported to be the word of some god.

There may be laws by which we are to abide, but whether or not they are moral or immoral is for each to decide for himself. To put it another way, God may arbitrarily decide his own criteria for metering out rewards and punishments, but he cannot decide how I feel about the fairness of his decisions and/or methods.

I do not find cause to believe that it's claims are true, no.

If there is a Creator of the universe, like His physical laws, His moral laws are never arbitrary. Ask Hawking about the former one. And if He created the universe, He shouldn't have a difficult time telling you how to think.

There are all kinds of moral absolutes. For example, I believe that it is always wrong for a person to torture another living being for pleasure. Always. Without exception. Absolutely.

This moral belief of mine is not objectively true, however.

Agreed. In other words, it would be impossible to prove the existence of this moral absolute, right?

For reference to your claim you linked to an obscure internet article written by some person, within which the author references a book written by another person,within which the second author presumably says something about Nietzsche which you think validates your claims.

Forgive me if I don't find that very convincing.

Thats fine. The reference on that page was secular and academic in nature. Do you normally hold everything your father or teacher tells you with such suspicion? What do you know about the man or his works which would lead you to think this was such an outlandish lie?

 

[Jaskalas]

Morality is pure logic and essential for a society to exist.

Africa ceased to exist?!

Guess it comes down to what you mean by society. Certainly they have one.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

If there is a Creator of the universe, like His physical laws, His moral laws are never arbitrary.

Nonsense. Any god worthy of the moniker could literally create any universe which suits him. His choice of which universe to create is subject only to his own will, making it arbitrary.

Ask Hawking about the former one.

Are you going to quote me an article about a book about a letter that someone once wrote about a guy who knew Hawking?

And if He created the universe, He shouldn't have a difficult time telling you how to think.

I'm speaking about my existence in this universe. I do not dispute that a god could create a universe in which he controls the thoughts of people within it, but it is generally the case that theists do not believe god does so in this universe. If you do, then I don't know why you even bother responding to someone that is merely a puppet to your god's whims in the first place.

Regardless, this doesn't detract from the point that laws are laws and morals are morals, they are not the same thing.

Agreed. In other words, it would be impossible to prove the existence of this moral absolute, right?

I don't think you are getting this. Beliefs don't "exist" like the way automobiles and cellular telephones exist.

Thats fine. The reference on that page was secular and academic in nature.

The article appeared on the domain of UKApologetics.com, written by "Dr" Phil Fernandes, President of the Institute of Bible Defense, Pastor of Trinity Bible Fellowship.That doesn't seem like the information supplied is very secular to me.

Do you normally hold everything your father or teacher tells you with such suspicion?

I normally hold everything told to me by pastors and apologists with GREAT suspicion, yes. I've been doing this a very long time, so I know better by now.

What do you know about the man or his works which would lead you to think this was such an outlandish lie?

I'm sorry. It isn't my responsibility to demonstrate the falsity of claims which you cannot substantiate to be true.

 

[Moonbeam]

Again, propose me a test which will prove it to you and I'll be more than happy to prove either of those things we discussed. I'll wait.

I believe man can fully know God's moral commandments - it is in the Bible.

The 20th century part was based on the context in answering your question in regards to a discussion with CT.

Any genocide committed at the hands of "Christians" did not come from the Word of God. Man abused it for their own prideful ends. If you step outside the context of this discussion I think that makes sense to you. But what texts did we abuse to end up with the holocaust? eh?

I'll say it again. I don't aim to persuade. But for the record, I do believe that you are a morally bankrupt, craven weasel of a man who won't hesitate to do evil if you think you can get away with it. But I also know that of myself, and my family and friends and everyone else in the world.

Its ludicrous not to know that about ourselves. It's profoundly human. Its the foundation for all the tabloids, talk shows, Hollywood reality and voyeuristic shows... Western culture really...

So here we have the truth, that pride destroys religion and everything else, that everything is corrupted by the ego. And can you see that the ego is fear, that religious morality is just more ego, eternal damnation for being sinful. It's the perfect catch 22 set by self hate. Self hate is the source of the evil of ego and the ego condemns itself. In one simple delusion we create the righteous preacher who beats us with a whip, a joy for the self hater's self hate. For the evil self to command itself to be good is the ultimate self hate, the endless misery of failure. But you have been forgiven, you have no sin. But the news has not transformed your ego because only those who re-awaken the child will enter the kingdom of heaven. You have to die to the ego to be reborn. And the ego will never kill itself. It will preach on in delusion.

The craven weasel of Western culture and everywhere else is nothing more or less than self hate and that self hate is universal. The ego can only be dissolved by love. There is only love. There is no ego. The ego is the self against the self, division by hate, and love is unity. God is everything and so are you when your love and His love are one and the same thing.

Your dear Christian religion is real in my opinion, not because the Bible is the one and only truth rather than one expression of the one and only truth, but because it tells you that you are forgiven. You can let go of your armored ego and die. You have been forgiven. Jesus collected the meek and the worthless sinners because they had less pride in their worth and value. Those whose egos are weak have less trouble and more need to die. He could save those who suffered the pain of self hate rather than its pride. He is reported to have said, Did you but suffer you would not suffer. Grief heals because grief came from the death of love. Love yourself.

 

[busmaster11]

So here we have the truth, that pride destroys religion and everything else, that everything is corrupted by the ego. And can you see that the ego is fear, that religious morality is just more ego, eternal damnation for being sinful. It's the perfect catch 22 set by self hate. Self hate is the source of the evil of ego and the ego condemns itself. In one simple delusion we create the righteous preacher who beats us with a whip, a joy for the self hater's self hate. For the evil self to command itself to be good is the ultimate self hate, the endless misery of failure. But you have been forgiven, you have no sin. But the news has not transformed your ego because only those who re-awaken the child will enter the kingdom of heaven. You have to die to the ego to be reborn. And the ego will never kill itself. It will preach on in delusion.

The craven weasel of Western culture and everywhere else is nothing more or less than self hate and that self hate is universal. The ego can only be dissolved by love. There is only love. There is no ego. The ego is the self against the self, division by hate, and love is unity. God is everything and so are you when your love and His love are one and the same thing.

Your dear Christian religion is real in my opinion, not because the Bible is the one and only truth rather than one expression of the one and only truth, but because it tells you that you are forgiven. You can let go of your armored ego and die. You have been forgiven. Jesus collected the meek and the worthless sinners because they had less pride in their worth and value. Those whose egos are weak have less trouble and more need to die. He could save those who suffered the pain of self hate rather than its pride. He is reported to have said, Did you but suffer you would not suffer. Grief heals because grief came from the death of love. Love yourself.

Hey Moon. I know its hard to believe this but I do love myself - and I do for exactly the reason you mentioned - that I have been forgiven. The grace of God allows me to love myself, and to me, it is the healthiest self-love one can have, because it allows us to see the truth of our own depravity and at the same time live in hope that we will be cleansed of our sin.

I know many people who have had self-esteem issues as kids. Guys who weren't intellectually or physically capable, girls who felt fat or unpopular and did things to compensate... I always looked at them as fools for letting the world's vain standards determine their self-worth - even if they succeeded their standards were foolish.

My parents were Chinese immigrants. They never hugged or kissed me or told me they loved me, but I never ever doubted they did because their actions proved it and because of that I never had any issues with insecurity. This is all to let you know I have no self-hate as I define it.

More than anything I feel like I have no illusions about my own worth...

 

[busmaster11]

CT, I'm going to guess that you are agnostic. After all, you appear to give little thought to how a world would look like if God created it - which makes sense for an intelligent person who happens to not believe in god.

Lets talk about the word arbitrary. You insist on using that work, and I detect a hint of condescension to god with it, or at least hinting that god would do what he did on a whim. This universe is exquisitely planned out. From the ratios of deuterium to hydrogen to the degrees of the strong and weak forces to the gravitational constants to the amount of matter in the universe necessary for gravity to Fibonacci numbers which determine so many things in nature... There is intention, beauty, symmetry and elegance in creation. And an infinite amount of intelligence as the value for all those things and much more would have to be quite precise for life to exist.

In this design, nothing is arbitrary.

The article appeared on the domain of UKApologetics.com, written by "Dr" Phil Fernandes, President of the Institute of Bible Defense, Pastor of Trinity Bible Fellowship.That doesn't seem like the information supplied is very secular to me.

I said the reference on that page, not the link itself. You're not helping your case if you can't find anything to support your suspicion of it...

You can discredit this or the handful of other hits, but an argument from silence, especially without motive (Neitchze wouldn't say that because....) makes yours very weak. And I'm still waiting for the link that appears to contradict...

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

CT, I'm going to guess that you are agnostic.

I'm an agonstic atheist.

After all, you appear to give little thought to how a world would look like if God created it - which makes sense for an intelligent person who happens to not believe in god.

I've given it an inordinate amount of thought, actually.

Lets talk about the word arbitrary. You insist on using that work, and I detect a hint of condescension to god with it, or at least hinting that god would do what he did on a whim. This universe is exquisitely planned out. From the ratios of deuterium to hydrogen to the degrees of the strong and weak forces to the gravitational constants to the amount of matter in the universe necessary for gravity to Fibonacci numbers which determine so many things in nature... There is intention, beauty, symmetry and elegance in creation. And an infinite amount of intelligence as the value for all those things and much more would have to be quite precise for life to exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrary

Please do some reading, and then come back and explain to me how you think that your god's decision to create this universe is not arbitrary.

I said the reference on that page, not the link itself. You're not helping your case if you can't find anything to support your suspicion of it...

I don't have to help my case. You haven't proven yours. It might explain why you have such a lousy truth filter if you automatically take everything to be true which isn't proven false.

You can discredit this or the handful of other hits, but an argument from silence, especially without motive (Neitchze wouldn't say that because....) makes yours very weak. And I'm still waiting for the link that appears to contradict...

I don't have to supply anything. You haven't substatiated your claim.

 

[Howard]

I'll say it again. I don't aim to persuade. But for the record, I do believe that you are a morally bankrupt, craven weasel of a man who won't hesitate to do evil if you think you can get away with it. But I also know that of myself, and my family and friends and everyone else in the world.

Seriously, go fuck yourself. You might be a scared little shit, incapable of honesty and self-improvement, but don't measure all others by your puny little cup.

 

[busmaster11]

Seriously, go fuck yourself. You might be a scared little shit, incapable of honesty and self-improvement, but don't measure all others by your puny little cup.

I have no fear but fear of the righteous. As for self-improvement, there's none possible till you have a right view of yourself.

 

[Howard]

I have no fear but fear of the righteous. As for self-improvement, there's none possible till you have a right view of yourself.

And it looks like you do not have the right view of yourself.

Know what I think? I think you believe that we are all low creatures because if we were to be inherently "good", we would have no need for God and that frightens you beyond belief.

Anyway, I'm done here. Religious talk is no good for me and certainly does not do any good for my nighttime rape.

 

[busmaster11]

I'm an agonstic atheist.

I've given it an inordinate amount of thought, actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrary

Please do some reading, and then come back and explain to me how you think that your god's decision to create this universe is not arbitrary.

I don't have to help my case. You haven't proven yours. It might explain why you have such a lousy truth filter if you automatically take everything to be true which isn't proven false.

I don't have to supply anything. You haven't substatiated your claim.

ar·bi·trar·y/ˈärbiˌtrerē/Adjective
1. Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
2. (of power or a ruling body) Unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority.

I did explain it to you. there is design and not randomness in the universe in the physical laws of nature.

When I said that you didn't give much thought to it, I was referring specifically to the question of *why*... When you put a imaginary god in a box, the answers you come up with will not jive with what any major religion will teach you about God.

The Bible does not give a reason for why God created the world, but only that He loved His people. So now what? The unbeliever will say that's bogus. The believer will say that that is the prerogative of the Creator and as inferior beings we have no right to presuppose. Who's correct? The former is steeped in suspicion, the latter a sign of reverence, but both are reasonable answers.

My claim is based on information from Ravi Zacharias' apologetics ministry, and is consistent with what I know about Neitchze. If this was a more important matter and I had reasons to doubt, I would do more research, but since this is a matter of degrees of importance which you're evading/ignoring, I accept it but place little significance in it. Hows that for a truth filter?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

ar·bi·trar·y/ˈärbiˌtrerē/Adjective
1. Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
2. (of power or a ruling body) Unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority.

I did explain it to you. there is design and not randomness in the universe in the physical laws of nature.

Now you're just being obtuse. Go read the page I supplied to you and tell me how, according to its criteria, the creation of this universe is not arbitrary.

Here's a hint, because obviously you're a little slow: Arbitrary does not equal random. I have never said that god's decision was random.

When I said that you didn't give much thought to it, I was referring specifically to the question of *why*... When you put a imaginary god in a box, the answers you come up with will not jive with what any major religion will teach you about God.

It amuses me that you think it is me that puts "god in a box," while you're the one telling me (baselessly) that he contends with so many constraints on his choices.

My claim is based on information from Ravi Zacharias' apologetics ministry, and is consistent with what I know about Neitchze.

Yet you can't substantiate your claims with anything better than 3rd-hand information, instead trying disingenuously to shift the burden to me to prove you wrong.

If this was a more important matter and I had reasons to doubt, I would do more research, but since this is a matter of degrees of importance which you're evading/ignoring, I accept it but place little significance in it. Hows that for a truth filter?

Well you appear to believe things which do not appear to have basis in fact. You tell me: How's that filter working?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I have no fear but fear of the righteous. As for self-improvement, there's none possible till you have a right view of yourself.

You know, just because you are a psychopath who lacks empathy and a conscience doesn't mean that Howard or anyone else is.

If fear of God or the will to do right by God is the only thing that is keeping you from murdering, raping and stealing then you will do some bad shit when your faith is weak.

 

[busmaster11]

Now you're just being obtuse. Go read the page I supplied to you and tell me how, according to its criteria, the creation of this universe is not arbitrary.

Here's a hint, because obviously you're a little slow: Arbitrary does not equal random. I have never said that god's decision was random.

Well in actuality I didn't go to the site because I happened to have a definition sitting right here (google the word) which used "randomness" in its definition. I'm not sure why your def would be so much more authoritative then mine. The easy solution here would be simply to ask you to clarify in your own words...

It amuses me that you think it is me that puts "god in a box," while you're the one telling me (baselessly) that he contends with so many constraints on his choices.

What was an example of a constraint I said that God had to contend with?

We live in an irreverent society. This is why submission is a hateful and foreign word to most people. This is how I just offended so many people (not intentionally) by talking about our depravity that they mistake it for self-hatred, and to the extent that 2-3 people just swore at me. And this is exactly why you can't believe in a God and continue to ask for proof, when the proof is in creation itself. That we've schooled ourselves to ask for proof of a creator when the creation has profound levels of complexity such as a human gene... (that can be another thread)

I asked for a test which can validate it for you, and I get back exactly what I expected - crickets. You've just proven to yourself that there is no test which can prove god to you, because it is not an intellectual disbelief, but one of choice.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Well in actuality I didn't go to the site because I happened to have a definition sitting right here (google the word) which used "randomness" in its definition. I'm not sure why your def would be so much more authoritative then mine. The easy solution here would be simply to ask you to clarify in your own words...

My words are clear. Your god's decision to create specifically this universe is subject only to his individual will and discretion. Sometimes, and individual's discretion leads him to make a decision at random, but we cannot know whether or not this is the case with your god. In any case, the word I chose is appropriate. For additional references see here:

http://www.google.com/search?source...rfai=CYcFacsXFTJvcB5aONeCnmesHAAAAqgQFT9A9dgU

What was an example of a constraint I said that God had to contend with?

When you suggest that your god's choices are not arbitrary, you imply that he operates within certain constraints external to him.

For example, you said:

From the ratios of deuterium to hydrogen to the degrees of the strong and weak forces to the gravitational constants to the amount of matter in the universe necessary for gravity to Fibonacci numbers which determine so many things in nature...

Nothing is necessary for your god, if we are to believe he has the wherewithal to create any universe he wants. If he decided that the ratios could be different or constants could be different values there's nothing stopping him. These things are not necessary for "gravity to Fibonacci numbers." They are simply what god decided, arbitrarily.

And this is exactly why you can't believe in a God and continue to ask for proof, when the proof is in creation itself.

What creation?

That we've schooled ourselves to ask for proof of a creator when the creation has profound levels of complexity such as a human gene... (that can be another thread)

By all means, start one. If complexity implies a creator, then what created your god's complexity?

I asked for a test which can validate it for you, and I get back exactly what I expected - crickets. You've just proven to yourself that there is no test which can prove god to you, because it is not an intellectual disbelief, but one of choice.

An original manuscript of Genesis featuring in a preface a calculation of pi to 1 million digits, with a 640-bit checksum at the end of Revelation would be pretty convincing.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Big Enough - Chris Rice

None of us knows and that makes it a mystery
If life is a comedy, then why all the tragedy
Three-and-a-half pounds of brain try to figure out
What this world is all about
And is there an eternity, is there an eternity?

God if You’re there I wish You’d show me
And God if You care then I need You to know me
I hope You don’t mind me askin’ the questions
But I figure You’re big enough
I figure You’re big enough

Lying on pillows we’re haunted and half-awake
Does anyone hear us pray, "If I die before I wake"
Then the morning comes and the mirror’s the other place
Where we wrestle face to face with the image of Deity
The image of Deity

God if You’re there I wish You’d show me
And God if You care then I need You to know me
I hope You don’t mind me askin’ the questions
But I figure You’re big enough
I figure You’re big enough

When I imagine the size of the universe
And I wonder what’s out past the edges
Then I discover inside me a space as big
And believe that I’m meant to be
Filled up with more than just questions

So, God if You’re there I wish You’d show me
And God if You care then I need You to know me
I hope You don’t mind me askin’ the questions
But I figure You’re big enough
I figure You’re big enough

‘Cause I am not big enough

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

God was never on your side - Motorhead

If the stars, fall down on me,
And the sun, refused to shine,
Then may the shackles be undone,
AND all the old words cease to rhyme
If the sky, turned into stone,
It would matter not at all,
For there is no heaven, in the sky,
Hell does not wait, for our downfall!

Let the voice of reason shine,
Let the PIOUS vanish for all time,
God's face HIDDEN, ALL unseen,
You can't ask him what it all means,
He was never on your side,
God was never on your side,
Let right or wrong, ALONE decide
God was never on your side.

See ten thousand ministries
See the holy rightous dogs,
They claim to heal, but all they do is steal,
ABUSE YOUR faith, cheat, and ROB,
If God is wise, why is he still,
When these false prophets, call him friend,
Why is he silent, is he blind!?
Are we abandoned in the end?

Let the sword of reason shine,
Let us be free of prayer and shrine
God's face is hidden, turned away,
He never has a word to say,
He was never on your side,
God was never on your side,
Let right or wrong, ALONE decide
God was never on your side!

 

[busmaster11]

My words are clear. Your god's decision to create specifically this universe is subject only to his individual will and discretion. Sometimes, and individual's discretion leads him to make a decision at random, but we cannot know whether or not this is the case with your god. In any case, the word I chose is appropriate. For additional references see here:

http://www.google.com/search?source...rfai=CYcFacsXFTJvcB5aONeCnmesHAAAAqgQFT9A9dgU

Do you mean independent or unilateral? If so, what would be a reasonable alternative? Who's authority or what scientific manual should God have consulted prior to creating the universe?

When you suggest that your god's choices are not arbitrary, you imply that he operates within certain constraints external to him.

For example, you said:

Nothing is necessary for your god, if we are to believe he has the wherewithal to create any universe he wants. If he decided that the ratios could be different or constants could be different values there's nothing stopping him. These things are not necessary for "gravity to Fibonacci numbers." They are simply what god decided, arbitrarily.

I see. What I mean by those things is that he is the author of those particular "constraints." He created them so that for example, the negatively charged electrons in the atoms of your body do not get sucked in to the positively charged nuclei. If these laws were random, life would have no chance to exist.

What creation?

By creation I mean all that was created not by human hands...

By all means, start one. If complexity implies a creator, then what created your god's complexity?

This is what I mean by putting God in a box. Reverence would suggest that if there was a God, and he chose what to reveal and what not to, that all we can do is accept what he tells us. If he is infinitely wiser then us, we need to trust that there is a purpose for why we weren't told certain things. I know this is hard to swallow, but I don't know why it would be any harder to swallow then the idea that complexity without an intelligent creator.

If we try to put him in a box and say that he needs to bend to our will by telling us everything we want to know, that would no longer make him sovereign.

An original manuscript of Genesis featuring in a preface a calculation of pi to 1 million digits, with a 640-bit checksum at the end of Revelation would be pretty convincing.

Thats not a test. You're asking after the fact for something to be included in a book when Moses died 3500 years ago...

 

[busmaster11]

I just want to share this with you guys. From Aldous Huxley's Ends and Means:

"Science does not have the right to give to me my reason for being. But I am going to take science’s view because I want this world not to have meaning. A meaningless world frees me to pursue my own erotic and political desires.”

Is this the most honest view we take when we don't believe in moral absolutes?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I just want to share this with you guys. From Aldous Huxley's Ends and Means:

"Science does not have the right to give to me my reason for being. But I am going to take science’s view because I want this world not to have meaning. A meaningless world frees me to pursue my own erotic and political desires.”

Is this the most honest view we take when we don't believe in moral absolutes?

I don't get how science frees anyone to do anything? Are you saying that as a believer you cannot trust science because it's the opposite of belief in a god? You're not making much sense with your statement.

Anyway, erotic and political desires are no crimes and not immoral. You kind of need erotic desires to even procreate (well, not really science has actually come to the point where you don't) which if i remember correctly God was very keen on us doing as long as we don't enjoy it.

 

[busmaster11]

I don't get how science frees anyone to do anything? Are you saying that as a believer you cannot trust science because it's the opposite of belief in a god? You're not making much sense with your statement.

Anyway, erotic and political desires are no crimes and not immoral. You kind of need erotic desires to even procreate (well, not really science has actually come to the point where you don't) which if i remember correctly God was very keen on us doing as long as we don't enjoy it.

Aldous was saying that the existence of God implies moral laws (the reason for being), and science does not. So he prefers to go with science simply because he does not want this world to have meaning, and then he tells you why that is his preference.

I made no comment here about my own views on science, but for the record, I trust science to present me the facts. I don't always trust the theories it concludes.

God wants us to enjoy and have satisfaction in our sexual relationships within marriage. Have you read Song of Solomon in the Old Testament? Its like a romantic poem...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Song+of+Solomon+1&version=NIV

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You kind of need erotic desires to even procreate (well, not really science has actually come to the point where you don't) which if i remember correctly God was very keen on us doing as long as we don't enjoy it.

I missed that part....you seem to know a lot about God.

 

[Moonbeam]

Hey Moon. I know its hard to believe this but I do love myself - and I do for exactly the reason you mentioned - that I have been forgiven. The grace of God allows me to love myself, and to me, it is the healthiest self-love one can have, because it allows us to see the truth of our own depravity and at the same time live in hope that we will be cleansed of our sin.

I know many people who have had self-esteem issues as kids. Guys who weren't intellectually or physically capable, girls who felt fat or unpopular and did things to compensate... I always looked at them as fools for letting the world's vain standards determine their self-worth - even if they succeeded their standards were foolish.

My parents were Chinese immigrants. They never hugged or kissed me or told me they loved me, but I never ever doubted they did because their actions proved it and because of that I never had any issues with insecurity. This is all to let you know I have no self-hate as I define it.

More than anything I feel like I have no illusions about my own worth...

My purpose in speaking with you was to suggest that the feeling you have that there is a truth that is goodness is real, and that it is real whether or not you believe in God but that it is the real aim of the Christian religion is ego death. Now that you tell me you use your religion to create ego life and self flattery there is nothing much for me to say. The problem you will have is this. Because you see folk who have vane standards of self worth as fools, you will never look at the vanity of your own standards because you will become a fool yourself, according to those false standards. Your contempt of fools has condemned you to be one. This is how you hate yourself and poison your own life. That weaselly coward is you. There are no fools in this world if you have been forgiven. There is only love.