Morals Without God

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Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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You know that the US is often still called a Christian nation, but many people check that checkbox not because they consider themselves devout churchgoers, but because they came from a Christian or Catholic heritage. In the religion section of Wiki's article on Hitler, you see what he thinks of Christianity as he grew older. When he started the holocaust, he was no doubt an atheist according to that article. Muss and Stalin were definitely atheists (with the aforementioned catholic background) and you know what you're dealing with going east of Europe.

And yet he described his own faith and what drove him to kill Jews by his own words in Mein Kampf, i'm Jewish you stupid fuck, you don't get to discuss any of this until you have read what i read and know what i know, once you do, i'll be more than happy to discuss it with you, i'm fairly sure that you know nothing of Hitlers upbringing for example, how could you, you know nothing at all on any pat of it, not even his reason for starting the war.


The point remains, atheists have, by two or three degrees of magnitude, killed more people then Christians ever had in the 20th century. And considering that atheism was not a very common thing in Europe prior to the Enlightenment, it would be vacuous to compare the two before then.

Are you fucked in your head? WHO has claimed kills in the name of atheism? Name one, one will do, just one, could be a single murderer, just one.

How many have claimed deaths in the name of Christ? Thousands if not tens of thousands and their victims are millions of people.


HOWARD, etc... I just want to say that my responses to you in post 251 was intended to be 1. a edgy but tongue-in-cheek response to your cynicism in verbatim. 2. a general but still vaguely accurate portrayal of how I see the world in its depraved and natural form.

If it was interpreted as a personal remark, I offer my apology for not making that point clear. It would be asinine for me to presume any such accusation on you as we do not know each other. I have IM'ed you also.

You suck at apologies, what you are saying is that if you misunderstood my clear words about how you are a fucking retarded psychopath which i clearly said than i'm sorry that you misunderstood me.

Fuck you, you're a horrible excuse for a believer, at least most of your kind have the fucking guts to admit your own mistakes and apologise when appropriate, you... well you are just fucked up in all ways there are, you cannot even justify your own beleifs without blaming others for shit you make up...

You are so pathetic that i'm fairly sure that God would discard you as bait for those who are less retarded than you.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Busmaster,

Government is a form of Religion. One gives themself up to a higher power, or a higher power demands subordinance.

So, however you look at it, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, were Religious, or inspired Religion.

-John

Thats fine if you want to call government a religion based on its commonalities. The background for our discussion was that JohnofSheffield defended atheism by saying zero people died throughout history from being attacked by atheist agendas. My claim is that including the holocaust and the rest of WW2 and the asian commie regimes, atheism occupies the very opposite end of that spectrum.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Well, I am saying that Hitler, Mussuolini and Stalin, were Religous to their God. The State.

Not Atheists...

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
The only thing that differentiates Religion from Government, is that in Government, men get to choose.

-John
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
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Thats fine if you want to call government a religion based on its commonalities. The background for our discussion was that JohnofSheffield defended atheism by saying zero people died throughout history from being attacked by atheist agendas. My claim is that including the holocaust and the rest of WW2 and the asian commie regimes, atheism occupies the very opposite end of that spectrum.

Since when does atheism need a defence, no one has every been killed, tortured or raped in the name of atheism.

I think i'll bow out of this discussion since you are dishonest with your words though, you don't respond to what anyone says but you do respond with words to try to place guilt where it is not due.

Moonbeam once said, you can bring a fool to knowledge but you can't make him think, i think that applies very well to you.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Atheists have killed, murdered, tortured and raped...

Your point is that they didn't do it in the name of atheism?

-John
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
The only thing that differentiates Religion from Government, is that in Government, men get to choose.

-John

That's a such incredible difference that the two don't belong even on the same scale of the same scale of the same scale x 56 billion.

God doesn't let you decide, he has interpreters via churches, temples and mosques where people ar told what to think, how to act, what to do and most don't do it.

Government sets the rules of what you can do, if you don't like it, you can vote it away, with god and preachers, you can't do shit, it's there, forever and nothing can ever change no matter how wrong or horrific it is, it's the same for all followers.

God is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent, if that is the case, free will is out of the question since you can never choose what god does not know you will choose, so either everything is preordained by god, or it isn't, if it is, i can do nothing wrong, if it isn't, well then i suppose i'm just like the rest of you twats.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
And yet he described his own faith and what drove him to kill Jews by his own words in Mein Kampf, i'm Jewish you stupid fuck, you don't get to discuss any of this until you have read what i read and know what i know, once you do, i'll be more than happy to discuss it with you, i'm fairly sure that you know nothing of Hitlers upbringing for example, how could you, you know nothing at all on any pat of it, not even his reason for starting the war.

Are you fucked in your head? WHO has claimed kills in the name of atheism? Name one, one will do, just one, could be a single murderer, just one.

How many have claimed deaths in the name of Christ? Thousands if not tens of thousands and their victims are millions of people.

There is more to saying God is dead then just saying God is dead. Up till recently we all came from religious backgrounds where people had some understanding of their role in life because their religion defined it for them. If we break free of those bonds, one result is the nihilism that men like Stalin, Muss, and others began to espouse.

You suck at apologies, what you are saying is that if you misunderstood my clear words about how you are a fucking retarded psychopath which i clearly said than i'm sorry that you misunderstood me.

Fuck you, you're a horrible excuse for a believer, at least most of your kind have the fucking guts to admit your own mistakes and apologise when appropriate, you... well you are just fucked up in all ways there are, you cannot even justify your own beleifs without blaming others for shit you make up...

You are so pathetic that i'm fairly sure that God would discard you as bait for those who are less retarded than you.

I very clearly told him in IM it was my mistake for being unclear. He can verify if you ask him.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,700
6,198
126
busmaster11: Moonbeam... You talk about owning the universe, being one with the universe... tea... how everything's perfect... you've lost me in so many places... But I don't get how I'm creating this "ego life" thing. Let's be clear though... I don't see myself as being better than anyone. At least, I know on any relevant level I have no reason to. If there's one area where I hope God might grant me grace, is that He has shown me through the Bible what a profound sinner I am. All I want to do here, is help others see the same thing no matter the profanity thrown my way.[/QUOTE]

OK perhaps you do want to hear more so I will try again:

Truth is a paradox that can only resolve at a higher level of understanding. What does this mean. One thing it means is that truth is not a string of words you can encapsulate or convey with words alone. It is an insight that turns our normal perspective on its head. It is confusing because it can't be grasped by thought. It is a state of consciousness I could call being awake. It is a revelation that can't be demanded. It is grace, a different grace, I think, than you describe above.

Let's look at the problem of evil. How can there be a perfect God with infinite powers and there still be evil. How could a Good God create evil? You would say, I think, that the Devil or some such thing created evil and God gave man free choice to chose good or evil. But to use your words, only a fool would chose evil. It would be just like you suddenly choosing to shot somebody and send your soul to hell. Not going to happen by choice.

But there is another way to look at this from my point of view. An ape with mammalian care for its children evolved with great intelligence and empathy over millions of years, an ape that laughs and loves, loves life itself, and that ape developed the trick of language.

Without language one cannot think, one has no words. Without words consciousness is filled with perception and feeling. The natural state of man is that he can feel and what he sees and feels is all there is. He is perfect because he is all that he can be and he can love infinitely because there is no separation between what he feels and what he is. And he is perfect in that he has no self reproach. He can't be neurotic and he can't put himself down. He has no self because he has no concept of boundary. The universe happens in his head. He is fully here in the present. He can't analyze because he has no words to put to thought. This is the Garden of Eden and the state of conscious into which we were born. We were born with a capacity for joy.

But we also evolved to speak a language, a system of symbols that represent reality but are not reality itself and which can express realities that do not exist.

We feel pain and we feel pleasure and from this good and evil were born. And then we turned these words on ourself. We called others good and evil, this action good and that one bad etc. And so evil was born with the capacity to think, to analyze and to pretend. We removed ourselves via thought from the now. We divided into the thinker and the object of thought. And we were told that we were evil and were punished for it. But no child can bare the feeling he is worthless and evil. He puts his real self to sleep and becomes an ego, a proud representation of what he was taught is the good. We learn cunning and denial, how to pretend we don't feel what we really feel. We became, evangelists for the good, believers in the one and only truth, any one of millions of them.

We have expelled ourselves from the garden of Eden, but the residual memory that we were once perfect remains. But because we now feel ourselves to be worthless we project that perfection out there and call it God. So be it. At least the perfection is real.

So we can have two states of being. We can think and have an ego or because of a deep longing for perfection or a deep interest in truth, we can set out on a journey for the source of our feeling of separation and end duality. There are many ways it is done, but it can't be done by the ego. The ego will not die of its own volition. Perhaps a temple bell rings when you are in a deep state of meditation and bam, you wake up filled with nothing but the love of awareness or you disappear in a longing for Christ. The Muslim reminds himself over and over not to react with negativity because everything that happens is the Will of God. Everything happens for a purpose. It's a big flash when the mind slips past the ego. That allows the original self to awaken.

And all this is just words about a state of being not the state of being.

So in my opinion Jesus brought forgiveness not so you could see how evil you are but so you could forget about the notion of sin entirely and see how fucked up everything is when you believe in it. There is no sin. There never was and there never will be. It is an illusion beaten into us because we use words for things that don't exist and pound that illusion in with a stick. Self hate is deeply buried and it is few who really feel forgiven.

There is no good or evil. There is no morality. There is only love that is being. We were created in the image of God and God is perfection, or we created Him in our image. Nobody can know nor does it matter. Created or creator, God is real. God is Love.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Atheists have killed, murdered, tortured and raped...

Your point is that they didn't do it in the name of atheism?

-John

You are actually posing my statement as a question?

Why yes, dear retarded twat, i do, imagine that you guessed that...

You must ... be... higher than ... the ... angels...

Pwaise the lewd!
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
There is more to saying God is dead then just saying God is dead. Up till recently we all came from religious backgrounds where people had some understanding of their role in life because their religion defined it for them. If we break free of those bonds, one result is the nihilism that men like Stalin, Muss, and others began to espouse.

And yet people like Mussolini were staunch believers in the church and went every sunday, went through confession and even had personal priests, were congratulated by the Vatican and praised by the Catholic Church.... Stalin founded the church which still carries his inscription... you may say that none of these were "true" believers but that is a fallacy, you don't get to say who is and who is not a true believer, only god does and if you claim to know his mind, then you shall be judged in fire.

Son, don't fuck with me, i'm not in the mood for that, i asked you a question, you failed to respond.

I get your problem, you judge when you know that it will send you straight to hell, well it won't if you regret it but you don't, so there you go, without regret, you're going to hell no matter what your beliefs, prayers or anything else says, it's in the fucking bible, you actually have to regret it and you don't...



I very clearly told him in IM it was my mistake for being unclear. He can verify if you ask him.

An insult made in public should be apologised for in public, but you care more about your ego than your soul, your beliefs or even your god that you pretend you believe in.

Worst of all, you have no honor, none what so ever, if you did, you'd make a point out of apologising to him in public.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
busmaster11: Moonbeam... You talk about owning the universe, being one with the universe... tea... how everything's perfect... you've lost me in so many places... But I don't get how I'm creating this "ego life" thing. Let's be clear though... I don't see myself as being better than anyone. At least, I know on any relevant level I have no reason to. If there's one area where I hope God might grant me grace, is that He has shown me through the Bible what a profound sinner I am. All I want to do here, is help others see the same thing no matter the profanity thrown my way.

OK perhaps you do want to hear more so I will try again:

Truth is a paradox that can only resolve at a higher level of understanding. What does this mean. One thing it means is that truth is not a string of words you can encapsulate or convey with words alone. It is an insight that turns our normal perspective on its head. It is confusing because it can't be grasped by thought. It is a state of consciousness I could call being awake. It is a revelation that can't be demanded. It is grace, a different grace, I think, than you describe above.

Let's look at the problem of evil. How can there be a perfect God with infinite powers and there still be evil. How could a Good God create evil? You would say, I think, that the Devil or some such thing created evil and God gave man free choice to chose good or evil. But to use your words, only a fool would chose evil. It would be just like you suddenly choosing to shot somebody and send your soul to hell. Not going to happen by choice.

But there is another way to look at this from my point of view. An ape with mammalian care for its children evolved with great intelligence and empathy over millions of years, an ape that laughs and loves, loves life itself, and that ape developed the trick of language.

Without language one cannot think, one has no words. Without words consciousness is filled with perception and feeling. The natural state of man is that he can feel and what he sees and feels is all there is. He is perfect because he is all that he can be and he can love infinitely because there is no separation between what he feels and what he is. And he is perfect in that he has no self reproach. He can't be neurotic and he can't put himself down. He has no self because he has no concept of boundary. The universe happens in his head. He is fully here in the present. He can't analyze because he has no words to put to thought. This is the Garden of Eden and the state of conscious into which we were born. We were born with a capacity for joy.

But we also evolved to speak a language, a system of symbols that represent reality but are not reality itself and which can express realities that do not exist.

We feel pain and we feel pleasure and from this good and evil were born. And then we turned these words on ourself. We called others good and evil, this action good and that one bad etc. And so evil was born with the capacity to think, to analyze and to pretend. We removed ourselves via thought from the now. We divided into the thinker and the object of thought. And we were told that we were evil and were punished for it. But no child can bare the feeling he is worthless and evil. He puts his real self to sleep and becomes an ego, a proud representation of what he was taught is the good. We learn cunning and denial, how to pretend we don't feel what we really feel. We became, evangelists for the good, believers in the one and only truth, any one of millions of them.

We have expelled ourselves from the garden of Eden, but the residual memory that we were once perfect remains. But because we now feel ourselves to be worthless we project that perfection out there and call it God. So be it. At least the perfection is real.

So we can have two states of being. We can think and have an ego or because of a deep longing for perfection or a deep interest in truth, we can set out on a journey for the source of our feeling of separation and end duality. There are many ways it is done, but it can't be done by the ego. The ego will not die of its own volition. Perhaps a temple bell rings when you are in a deep state of meditation and bam, you wake up filled with nothing but the love of awareness or you disappear in a longing for Christ. The Muslim reminds himself over and over not to react with negativity because everything that happens is the Will of God. Everything happens for a purpose. It's a big flash when the mind slips past the ego. That allows the original self to awaken.

And all this is just words about a state of being not the state of being.

So in my opinion Jesus brought forgiveness not so you could see how evil you are but so you could forget about the notion of sin entirely and see how fucked up everything is when you believe in it. There is no sin. There never was and there never will be. It is an illusion beaten into us because we use words for things that don't exist and pound that illusion in with a stick. Self hate is deeply buried and it is few who really feel forgiven.

There is no good or evil. There is no morality. There is only love that is being. We were created in the image of God and God is perfection, or we created Him in our image. Nobody can know nor does it matter. Created or creator, God is real. God is Love.[/QUOTE]In short, people are born good.

There is no, people are born sinners, but for Religion.

The only people that attack us on Morality issues, are the Religious or the Government.

-John
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
I agree with you 100%

Government is the better Religion.

-John

Since when is religion decided by representative vote?

It isn't, and government isn't a religion, democracy isn't perfect but it's a FUCKLOAD better than theocracy which WOULD be a government based on religion.

Not that you understand any words i say, you're just fucked in your skull.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Government is a Religion, once the people have no choice, like in Hitler, Stalin, or Mussolini's regime.

We are close to the Religion of Obama here in the U.S. as we are losing the right to choose.

-John
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Government is a Religion, once the people have no choice, like in Hitler, Stalin, or Mussolini's regime.

We are close to the Religion of Obama here in the U.S. as we are losing the right to choose.

-John

Extreme exaggerations do not help anyone, if you need that then you have nothing to say at all.

In short, shut the fuck up or think, yes, son, you need to think to actually come up with something worthwhile to say, when you do, i'll listen, until then...

Cheerio.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,989
10
81
Government is a Religion, once the people have no choice, like in Hitler, Stalin, or Mussolini's regime.

We are close to the Religion of Obama here in the U.S. as we are losing the right to choose.

-John
Don't you ever wonder why so few of your posts get responded to?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Morality is totally relative. As hey has said in some societies it's cool to butcher and eat humans, some can marry 9 yr old girls, some can lop of hands and feet on opposite sides of thieves, some can imprison you for taking catalytic converter from you car and so on. "god" is good so long as you agree with it. All god are different and play to circumstance people were in when the god was created.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Morality is logical, not spiritual.

We have ethics and morality for purely selfish ends. I do not want to be murdered, or robbed, or raped, therefore I vote to make these things illegal.

Morality stems from the selfish want of self preservation, and extends to the empathy we have for our fellow humans, which, again, is based on the selfish desire to not end up in their situation, so we seek to help those in need based on the fear of if we ourselves are ever in need.

Morality is pure logic and essential for a society to exist.

Fail.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html

All those things are legal and encouraged in some religions.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Morality is totally relative. As hey has said in some societies it's cool to butcher and eat humans, some can marry 9 yr old girls, some can lop of hands and feet on opposite sides of thieves, some can imprison you for taking catalytic converter from you car and so on. "god" is good so long as you agree with it. All god are different and play to circumstance people were in when the god was created.

As said before, good men will do good things, bad men will do bad things but for good men todo bad things (you are describing the LRA i presume since that is what your first statemt is about a bunch of Christians believing they are righteous in what they do) that takes religion.

The biggest problem isn't religion it's the usage of preachers telling their minions that homosexuality is bad, that adulterers should be stoned and so on,

It occurs in all three world religions and by a lesser degree in Judaism, amongst the Orthodox tribes who are just as fucked up.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,405
4,967
136
Treat others as you want to be treated yourself, is the core of my moral standing.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,700
6,198
126
Morality is totally relative. As hey has said in some societies it's cool to butcher and eat humans, some can marry 9 yr old girls, some can lop of hands and feet on opposite sides of thieves, some can imprison you for taking catalytic converter from you car and so on. "god" is good so long as you agree with it. All god are different and play to circumstance people were in when the god was created.

You are mixing things up a bit which is to be expected because you haven't factored self hate into your equation. People who hate themselves vote in democracies and make relative choices. This is not religion but political power. However like religion that is taken over by the unconscious desires of the sick, there are many things in common. What they do not have in common is origin. Real religion starts with somebody who has awakened, government with the average level of awareness of those people. So in the case of the former, real religion, the gods or belief system may differ but what is always the same is the appropriateness of that belief system for awakening just those very people. It is always created to ameliorate their dominant concealed prejudice, the unconscious ego force that creates spiritual sleep.

Religions are bridges to reality, each for its own time and place. The bridges are all different because the chasm below differs, but the destination is always the same. Bridges are built by folk who find new ways to help self haters who always wind up worshiping and mechanically perpetrating some old bridges.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,700
6,198
126
Treat others as you want to be treated yourself, is the core of my moral standing.

This reminds me of the story of a farmer who heard the noise a lion made getting into his barn for a sleep. Watching the farmer wandering around in the barn looking for the source of the noise the lion thought to himself, 'He wouldn't be so calm if he knew I were here.'

Be careful what you wish for.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
They are failing to progress, yes. However, Islam is expanding, so that could be considered a more important measure of "success" than improving the human condition would be.

muslims vs china, who wins ?
 
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