More low T

[Pantlegz]

I guess I might be joining the ranks of member with lot testosterone, I got preliminary results of 330 with the normal range being 250-1200. Decided to have it tested due to poor sleep, recovery, lower sex drive, less motivation, and a bit of brain fog (which I didn't know could be related until doing some searching). I honestly figured I might be a bit below average but wanted to get numbers to monitor as time goes on but my PCP ordered a second lab which was drawn today. Hopefully I'll know the results early next week since the first test only took 2-3 day to process.

for those of you that don't follow my workout log a bit of background on me. I'll be 32 next month, 6' and right around 250lbs working on getting down to 220 for competition purposes. I lift 2-3 days a week (when I'm not injured) and do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu 3-6 days a week depending on the time of year. I eat a healthy diet with minimal processed crap, no artificial sweeteners, rarely eat out. I sleep 8+ hours a night 99% of the time. Never used anabolics. And honestly not sure of the cause, genetic maybe? Oddly enough I also have a 23andme test kit that's waiting to be processed so if I in fact end up being diagnosed with low testosterone I should have the genetic results to dig through.

 

[Worthington]

Sometimes it just happens man. I was diagnosed with the same right before I hit 40. I went in for almost exactly the same symptoms (that and actually losing weights on my lifts despite a very solid regiment in the gym). My diet was clean and I was extremely active.

 

[mike8675309]

If normal range is 250 - 1200 then your 330 sounds in the rage. What makes you think you have an actual testosterone problem? Have you had your Vitamin D and B12 checked? Deficiency in those can be related to some of the symptoms you describe. In the US, those tests can be done part of an annual physical checkup.

 

[Pantlegz]

I understand that 330 is "within range" but with a bit of internet sleuthing it seems that most "good" doctors prefer somewhere in the middle of the range rather than being in the top/bottom 20% (and if my math is correct I'm at 8% ((330-250)/(1200-250))x100 ). I haven't had any follow up tests to see if the problem may lie elsewhere but I's think a vitamin deficiency would have been an issue much earlier if that were the case. I'm also not sure that between a solid multi-vitamin(animal pak), and 10,000IU of D3 combined with a healthy, well rounded diet that those would be the issue but I'm sure the doc will do additional testing depending on what the results of the second lab are.

Like I said in the OP I went in to get a base line to watch the numbers due to the symptoms I listed, I wasn't expecting the numbers to be that low and I also don't know my free test numbers which seem to be more of an indicator that there's a problem than just having low overall testosterone. Since I'm still waiting for results on lab 2 and haven't met with the Dr about any of it in person, yet. I have plenty of questions and will probably get more testing done prior to starting any sort of TRT because it's expensive and once you start it you're pretty much on it for life.

 

[Ancalagon44]

One more thing to consider - how much saturated fat do you eat? Saturated fat is what is used by the body to make hormones. If you are on a super low fat diet, your body might not have enough to manufacture T.

Remember, fat is used to make all hormones in your body, not just T. So don't think you only need enough to cover T - you need enough to cover every hormone your body uses, and it uses a lot.

 

[Pantlegz]

I honestly don't track fat by different categories, it's all just tracked as fat. But I eat a good amount of eggs, red meat, and butter all of which have decent levels of saturated fat.

 

[Pantlegz]

So the second test came back "low", I didn't get a number this time and didn't think to ask how low while I was on the phone. Have a follow up scheduled for next week to go over the tests and whatnot.

 

[mike8675309]

I eat a healthy diet with minimal processed crap, no artificial sweeteners, rarely eat out.

But I eat a good amount of eggs, red meat, and butter all of which have decent levels of saturated fat.

At one point you said you eat a healthy diet. In another point you mention a "good" amount of various animal products high in saturated fat. I assume you are not trying to force your body into ketosis. Outside of ketosis a healthy diet is going to be low in red meats, reduce if not eliminate eggs, and reduce dairy.

You didn't mention if you eat much fish. Endocrine disrupters that can build up in fish have been found to reduce testosterone in fish eaters.
Endocrine disrupters: potential risk factors affecting sexual function in both men and women.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22239867

High animal protein diets have also been found to reduce Testosterone levels in men vs diets high in whole plant carbohydrates.
Diet-hormone interactions: protein/carbohydrate ratio alters reciprocally the plasma levels of testosterone and cortisol and their respective binding globulins in man.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573976

Personally I would take a hard look at how much animal proteins you are eating and reduce them, adding whole plant proteins and other whole plant foods, then retest. The studies show material changes in testosterone levels can occur within 10 days of a dietary change.

 

[Pantlegz]

Not doing a keto diet. I eat fish but not regularly enough that I think it would be an issue, maybe 2-3 times a month. I do eat a fairly high protein diet at the recommendation of a registered dietitian with whom I place a lot of trust. I've known her for years and she runs a successful business working with athletes. My carb intake is moderate, 150-200g with all but 50-75g backloaded (post workout) and they're from mostly healthy sources. On top of that my diet calls for 6-8 cups of veggies a day depending on the day. Most of my protein comes from chicken but 2 days a week I have steak and 2 days a week I'll have lean ground beef. The butter comes in the form of Kerrygold (grass fed) butter on white rice which is fairly typical post workout - 15-30g of fat. I don't consume much dairy just because it doesn't fit my diet very well.

After looking even more at "high protein" diets and the studies that go along with them are all stupidly high amounts of protein intake, I'm around 'suggested' range of 25-30% of my caloric intake from animal based protein at 35-40% when on a pretty steep cut, when I'm maintaining it's a lower % because my protein intake doesn't change but fat and carbs do quite a bit. As much as I would like a change to my diet to resolve this problem I don't think that is the source of the problem.

 

[mike8675309]

I've known her for years and she runs a successful business working with athletes.
...

As much as I would like a change to my diet to resolve this problem I don't think that is the source of the problem.

Ask her how she handles her clients with low testosterone results. A common problem among various athletes. And if anything nutrition science of the last 10 years can agree on it is that what we eat can have a dramatic impact on our health. More so than was ever understood in the past.

 

[Pantlegz]

Ask her how she handles her clients with low testosterone results. A common problem among various athletes. And if anything nutrition science of the last 10 years can agree on it is that what we eat can have a dramatic impact on our health. More so than was ever understood in the past.

Now that I have the numbers, I'll reach out and see if she has any advice but I'm going to out of a limb as assume she's going to recommend following the advice of my PCP.

And on that note, I had my follow up today - the ranges the Dr and the lab in question use are a bit different from what I found online at 350-1190 putting my first test at basically 1% within range and the second test came in at 261 (tested before 10AM). I'm slightly disappointed that only testosterone levels were checked and the report doesn't show free test or estradiol but I'm going to request a more thorough test for the follow up in 8 weeks. Depending on what the dietitian recommends I'm probably trying out Andro Gel, 2 or 4 pumps daily (I can't remember off hand) and we'll take it from there.

 

[twelfth]

So the second test came back "low", I didn't get a number this time and didn't think to ask how low while I was on the phone. Have a follow up scheduled for next week to go over the tests and whatnot.

It can just happen, dude. Same thing for me, ended up starting TRT at 35. Had low T for a long time before that but after exhausting all other options, changing diet, routine, sleeping habits, etc... There was nothing left to try. I had been testing regularly in the low 200's.

Testosterone isn't the inject-it-and-become-a-raging-beast-thing that it often gets portrayed as. After about a month of weekly injections (I found the gel to be a bit much and prefer the singular peak and decline over a longer period that comes with the injection method instead of the daily peak with the gel), the most I could say about having my levels back in range is that I simply felt normal. Like some things finally went back into their right place, both mentally and physically.

Like Worthington up there said, it just happens. A part of getting older.

 

[KIAman]

Oh damn. Looks like you had similar symptoms as me. Interesting that you and other people are being prescribed androgels and injections. I was put on clomiphene citrate (typically a female fertility drug) and my newest blood test shows my T hovering right around 780 mark, which is good for my age.

Just to give you a heads up, I honestly didn't feel any changes at all to my sleep, sex drive, motivation for the first few months. I told my doctor and she said to give it a little longer than she'll prescribe something stronger. But now I feel like I have more energy (which natually led to more sex drive) and without realizing it, was getting better sleep. Wife swears my balls got bigger (not sure if this is good or bad) and I've been making gains again in the gym finally!

Good luck and hang in there!

 

[Pantlegz]

I figured I'd a 'one month check in'. I felt improvement almost right away, within hours of the injection. I took it at night, not really thinking about it but it really made falling asleep difficult. I don't know exactly why but it did. And I continued to feel better until 4 days in and I crashed big time, I woke up and didn't want to get out of bed even though we had the kids on a mini-vacation - I managed to push myself though the day but it was rough. It actually sort of leveled off after that and I made it to the next shot without much issue. I actually did a 6 day cycle for the first 3 - I started shots on Wednesday and and ended up wanting to take them Sunday morning so each week I gave myself the shot 1 days early until it go to Sunday. I really don't feel the day made much difference, granted I've only had one 7 day cycle, it seems about the same. I still don't feel 100% 'normal' but it's much better than it had been. I've been more motivated to get to the gym, both lifting and jiujitsu. Recovery and sleep have also improved quite a bit but they were so shitty any improvement would be easily noticeable. I'm eagerly waiting for my next round of bloodwork(I'll probably call and see if I can get it sooner than the 8 weeks he originally wanted to wait), I intent to get a more thorough test done this time around to show overall testosterone but also free testosterone, LH/FSH, prolactin, CBC, AST/ALT, DHEA-S, TSH, Free T3/4, IGF-1, and E2. Per my reading around the internet I probably should have done these prior to starting TRT but I figured with levels as low as they were and as crappy as I was feeling TRT was the solution. Hopefully that was the right decision. I've been nursing a sore knee and preping for BJJ and not lifting much so I don't expect to see any gains in the gym for a while.

If I had to rate my before/after with a simple x/10 I'd have to say I was 2-3/10 before and 5-6/10 today. Not great but it also hasn't been as long as many people have said it takes to get the full effect but it still feels like something is missing.

@KIAman, I'm glad to hear you're seeing the upside of things too. Personally I have no intention of reproducing any further so test-c was a better option for me, I mean I wasn't given a clomid as an option but I would have picked test-c over it had it been.

 

[tnt118]

So you are doing injections yourself? I'm about to start some treatment but the doctor insists it be done in the office. Also the gel is crazy expensive and not covered by my insurance so it wasn't a viable option either.

 

[Pantlegz]

So you are doing injections yourself? I'm about to start some treatment but the doctor insists it be done in the office. Also the gel is crazy expensive and not covered by my insurance so it wasn't a viable option either.

I am, my doctor gave me the option and I figured that's easier than having to take the time to make it into their office when it's open. It might be something that you bring up after being on for a while and making sure your numbers are where they need to be. I think lots of doctors are worried about abuse, which makes sense. If you skip a shot the week before your blood work and come back with testosterone levels have barely moved it would be easy to ask for more - which if taken regularly could put you over the 'normal' range and potentially cause other issues.

 

[Pantlegz]

I got test results back last week, it's not quite what I was expecting but. Total testosterone only increased by ~20 4 days after injection which doesn't seem like much of an increase at 100mg/wk. I was also surprised to see both progesterone and DHEA were so low. I've been looking into both and decided to get OTC supplements to cover both initially, it seems that pharmaceutical progesterone has some nasty side effects. I'm also hoping that getting that number up will help to offset the, hopefully, increased test-c dose. I'm still aiming for 100mg 2x/wk to bring the overall value up and make the valley a bit more shallow at the same time. I'm seeing the doctor tomorrow so we'll see if he agrees with my interpretation of the results or if I'm way off base.

total testosterone: 356 (348-1197)

free testosterone: 10.7 (8.7-25.1)

E2: 27.5 (7.6-42.6)

DHEA: 60 (31-701)

PSA: 0.4 (0.0-4.0)

LH/FSH: <0.2

Prolactin: 7.6 (4.0-15.2)

17-OH Progesterone: 10 (27-199)

TSH: 1.76 (0.450-4.5)

Free T3: 3.9 (2.0-4.4)

Free T4: 1.2 (.82-1.77)

 

[skyking]

My doctor has the standard rage at 200~600. That changes the perspective a bit.
He ordered a test for me based on age, it came back 474.

 

[Pantlegz]

My doctor has the standard rage at 200~600. That changes the perspective a bit.
He ordered a test for me based on age, it came back 474.

Apparently different labs have different protocols so their ranges might be different but the amount is still the same(ex: measuring in mm and inches would give different number for the same sized object). I'd be happy in the top 1/4 of the range. My doctor is aiming for ~900-1000 once we get everything sorted out. I do find it odd that after talking to him today he's not at all concerned with the progesterone or DHEA being low and recommended not supplementing which seems odd to me. He also only increased the dose by 50%, to 150/wk or 100 every 5 days. I'm going to opt for the 5 days and hope that it makes more of a difference than 100/wk made because waiting another 8 weeks to find out my levels barely moved is going to be rough. I'm looking into finding an endo close and get their opinion, just to make sure I'm going down the right path. My advice elsewhere online was in line or above what I was wanting, between 200-300mg/wk with injections as frequently as every other day, or ~60-85mg every other day. But who knows maybe 150 will magically increase my levels to where they need to be.

 

[Andro Boy]

I suspect that I have low T mostly due to my childlike appearance in my mid 20's as well as a lack of significant facial and body hair. It also took my voice a very long time to mature. In fact, it still cracks every now and then.

Then again, I'm not very big on traditional masculinity and being jacked, so I guess I'm blessed.