More Microsoft Crap- Buy a new motherboard, buy a new license

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RebateMonger

Elite Member
Dec 24, 2005
11,586
0
0
You guys are making me hungry. I had a "Lean Cuisine" for dinner. Maybe I've earned a Pizza midnight snack?
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,527
335
126
Hasn't this always been the case? I always thought that the OEM license was paired with the botherboard.
Correct, there is nothing 'new' about this policy, it has always been the case at least since Windows XP was released, probably before. I have stated a few times in months-old if not year-old discussions on product activation to never tell Microsoft Activation Support that you upgraded to a new motherboard as a reason for re-activating, but instead that you replaced a defective motherboard, because the OEM license only transfers to a new motherboard replaced for reason of defect or failure.

Nothing to see here, move along...
Stop right there. You're making my point beautifully. OEM software is NOT a rental or lease. It is a PURCHASE - a SALE. Which confers OWNERSHIP, and certain rights that go along with that.

The fact that you can't see that truth is sad.
LOL! How sad is the fact that you and I have already had this discussion before, and I conclusively settled that you were wrong then, and you are still wrong now, but you keep spewing the same old argument? Even the Electronic Frontier Foundation says you're wrong and I'm right. Again, from our last discussion, software rights are LICENSED through acts of compliance, they are not sold:

What is Software Licensing?

Allowing an individual or group to use a piece of software. Nearly all applications are licensed rather than sold. There are a variety of different types of software licenses. Some are based on the number machines on which the licensed program can run whereas others are based on the number of users that can use the program. Most personal computer software licenses allow you to run the program on only one machine and to make copies of the software only for backup purposes. Some licenses also allow you to run the program on different computers as long as you don't use the copies simultaneously.


-----------------------------------


What is a software license?

Software is protected by copyright law, which states that a product cannot be copied without the permission of the copyright holder. A software license grants you the legal right to use a piece of software. You only own the license to use that piece of software - not the software itself.

Your End-User License Agreement is a contract between you and Microsoft (or the original equipment manufacturer if your software was preinstalled), describing how you can use the software.


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It Pays To Read License Agreements


You may wonder whether these licenses are legal. Most of them do hold up in court as long as they are reasonably clear, according to Parry Aftab, an attorney specializing in Internet privacy and security law (www.aftab.com). "The courts have said that if you click on something saying 'I agree' then it's legal consent."


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A User's Guide to EULAs
By Annalee Newitz
Electric Frontier Foundation


We've all seen them ? windows that pop up before you install a new piece of software, full of legalese. To complete the install, you have to scroll through 60 screens of dense text and then click an "I Agree" button. Sometimes you don't even have to scroll through to click the button. Other times, there is no button because merely opening your new gadget means that you've "agreed" to the chunk of legalese.

They're called End User License Agreements, or EULAs. Sometimes referred to as "shrinkwrap" or "click-through" agreements, they are efforts to bind consumers legally to a number of strict terms ? and yet you never sign your name. Frequently, you aren't even able to see a EULA until after you've purchased the item it covers.

Although there has been some controversy over whether these agreements are enforceable, several courts have upheld their legitimacy.


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National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws (NCCUSL) - UCITA and Software Licensing FAQ

Q: WHAT IS A LICENSE?

A: A license is simply a contract. It gives the licensee rights to use information rights owned by somebody else. Licenses allow transactions to fit the rights and the price for information to the interests of the licensee. A consumer may license the right to use a database for consumer purposes for $5; a business might license the right to use the same database for commercial purposes for $10,000.


Q: DOES UCITA RADICALLY CHANGE ENFORCEMENT OF STANDARD FORM LICENSES?

A: No. Reported court decisions today enforce shrink-wrap, onscreen and other forms of modern automated contracting, if they comply with contract concepts similar to UCITA and, indeed, some cases allow contract formation without the protections that UCITA creates. An allegation that these contracts would be unenforceable without UCITA is simply wrong.


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What Have You Signed Away Today?

Consider the case of M.A. Mortenson, a contracting firm that sued Timberline Software of Oregon; the suit alleged that defects in a Timberline bid-preparation program caused Mortenson to make a $1.95 million bidding error.

Last year, the Washington State Supreme Court ruled that Timberline was not liable for the buggy program--despite the fact the company knew about the bug before putting the software on the market. The reason: Timberline's EULA exempted the company from responsibility "for any damages of any type" resulting from use of its products. [Note: Washington is not a UCITA state]


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Just-In-Time Click-Through Agreements: Facilitating User Understanding and Confirming Informed, Unambiguous Consent


The most common method for supporting consent in computer applications is a "user agreement". When you have installed new software on your computer, or signed-up for an Internet service, you have undoubtedly seen an interface screen that presents a User Agreement or Terms of Service. In order to continue, you have had to click on an "I Agree" button or an equivalent label. These interface screens are commonly called "click-through agreements" because the users must click through the screen to get to the software or service being offered [5]. (An alternative label is "click-wrap agreement", in parallel to more traditional "shrink-wrap" agreements attached to software packaging.) These agreement screens are an attempt to provide the electronic equivalent of a signed user agreement or service contract [4]. By clicking on the "Agree" button, the user is confirming their understanding of the agreement and indicating consent to any terms or conditions specified in the accompanying text.

The legality of these click-through screens in forming the basis of a legal agreement or contract has been established...


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Click Wrap Agreements - Enforceable Contracts or Wasted Words?


THE LATER CASES

More recent cases have held that once the consumer has the opportunity to read the terms of the license agreement, even if that chance is after he or she purchased the software, use of the product equals acceptance of the terms. In other words, giving the consumer a fair, albeit limited, opportunity to return the product strikes a happy medium between consumer and industry protection.

In ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg, the court held that "shrink-wrap licenses are enforceable unless their terms are objectionable on grounds applicable to contracts in general."


---------------------------------------


Ibid


Hill v. Gateway 2000, Inc. also found shrink-wrap agreements enforceable. This case deals with the enforceability of preprinted form contracts shipped with goods ordered by telephone.

The court held that the Hills had to follow the terms set forth in the licensing agreement because the Hills accepted those terms by using the computer. The court said that although the Hills did not read the agreement, "[a] contract need not be read to be effective; people who accept take the risk that the unread terms may in retrospect prove unwelcome." This case is seen as a clear victory for Gateway and shrink-wrap agreements.


---------------------------------------


Ibid


Another case in which the court found a click-wrap agreement to be valid and enforceable was the Storm Impact v. Software of the Month Club case. Here, a federal district court judge held that the express reservation of rights displayed in a user's click-wrap agreement on a computer screen was valid and enforceable.


----------------------------------------


Ibid


One of the more recent click-wrap cases is Caspi v. Microsoft Network, L.L.C. In this case, the plaintiff was prompted to view multiple computer screens of information, including the membership agreement containing the forum selection clause before subscribing to Microsoft's online service. The potential members had the option to click on "I agree" or "I don't agree," depending on whether or not they agreed to the terms of the agreement. The court refused to hold the forum selection clause unenforceable on the grounds that if it did, the entire agreement would be invalidated, since all provisions were presented in the same manner.


----------------------------------------


Ibid


In direct line with Caspi came the most recent click-wrap cases that include In Re Realnetworks, Inc. and American Eyewear v. Peeper's Sunglasses. In the first of the cases, In Re Realnetworks, Inc., the plaintiffs brought a claim alleging trespass to property and privacy regarding their use of the defendant's computer network. The plaintiffs claimed that the license agreement did not constitute a "writing" because the arbitration clause should be interpreted narrowly in favor of the plaintiffs, and that the arbitration clause should be unenforceable because it would be unconscionable to decide otherwise. The court used traditional contract law and rules of civil procedure to resolve the issues of the case. The court held that the arbitration clause in the defendant's click-wrap agreement was enforceable because words in a contract are interpreted by their plain meaning. Furthermore, the arbitration clause was not buried in fine print that would normally render such a clause unenforceable, but instead, was presented in a manner that gave a user ample opportunity to read and understand the provisions within the contract.


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Ecommerce: An Introduction, Transactions


In the landmark ProCD case, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals held that the defendant was bound by the terms of the shrink-wrapped license prohibiting commercial use of the software. The license was only inside the box but there was a notice on outside referring to the license. The Court held that by using the software after opening the shrink wrap, the defendant had manifested assent to the contract as is required under the Uniform Commercial Code.

This precedent has been extended to the Internet and clickwraps in a series of cases. In Hotmail Corporation v. Van Money Pie, Inc. (Website) (Hotmail) the court upheld the validity of a clickwrap agreement that prohibited the use of Hotmail e-mail accounts for transmitting unsolicited mass e-mail. In Groff v. America Online, Inc. (AOL) (Website) (Groff) the court upheld a forum selection clause contained within AOL's clickwrap user agreement. See also Caspi v. The Microsoft Network (Website) (Caspi) (upholding forum selection clause in Microsoft Network subscriber agreement which the user was required to click "I agree" next to the scrollable window containing the agreement.)

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NVIDIA Software EULA

GRANT OF LICENSE

2.1 Rights and Limitations of Grant. NVIDIA hereby grants Customer the following non-exclusive, non-transferable right to use the SOFTWARE, with the following limitations...


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Cisco SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT


BY CLICKING ON THE "ACCEPT" BUTTON, OPENING THE PACKAGE, DOWNLOADING THE PRODUCT, OR USING THE EQUIPMENT THAT CONTAINS THIS PRODUCT, YOU ARE CONSENTING TO BE BOUND BY THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, CLICK THE "DO NOT ACCEPT" BUTTON AND THE INSTALLATION PROCESS WILL NOT CONTINUE, RETURN THE PRODUCT TO THE PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, OR DO NOT DOWNLOAD THE PRODUCT.

Single User License Grant: Cisco Systems, Inc. ("Cisco") and its suppliers grant to Customer ("Customer") a nonexclusive and nontransferable license to use the Cisco software ("Software") in object code form solely on a single central processing unit owned or leased by Customer or otherwise embedded in equipment provided by Cisco.

Multiple-Users License Grant: Cisco Systems, Inc. ("Cisco") and its suppliers grant to Customer ("Customer") a nonexclusive and nontransferable license to use the Cisco software ("Software") in object code form...


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MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP HOME EDITION (RETAIL) END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT


IMPORTANT-READ CAREFULLY: This End-User License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you (either an individual or a single entity) and Microsoft Corporation for the Microsoft software that accompanies this EULA, which includes computer software and may include associated media, printed materials, "online" or electronic documentation, and Internet-based services ("Software"). An amendment or addendum to this EULA may accompany the software. YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.

-----------------------------------------

I will be watching for when you try to repeat the same old worn out argument in a few months.
 

bjc112

Lifer
Dec 23, 2000
11,460
0
76
Originally posted by: mechBgon
People infected with Compulsive Upgrade Syndrome should definitely buy retail Windows licenses instead of OEM

I would own like 12 licenses right now..

Is it known if the Retail copy actually WON'T have that in the T's & C's ? ?
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: RebateMonger
You guys are making me hungry. I had a "Lean Cuisine" for dinner. Maybe I've earned a Pizza midnight snack?

Their french bread pizzas are yummy.
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
Originally posted by: bjc112
Originally posted by: mechBgon
People infected with Compulsive Upgrade Syndrome should definitely buy retail Windows licenses instead of OEM

I would own like 12 licenses right now..

Is it known if the Retail copy actually WON'T have that in the T's & C's ? ?
It is verified, I'll re-quote from my own retail-boxed XP Pro 32-bit EULA, if I can even find it in this huge thread...

14. SOFTWARE TRANSFER. Internal.

You may move the Software to a different Workstation
Computer. After the transfer, you must completely remove
the Software from the former Workstation Computer.

 

bjc112

Lifer
Dec 23, 2000
11,460
0
76
Originally posted by: mechBgon
Originally posted by: bjc112
Originally posted by: mechBgon
People infected with Compulsive Upgrade Syndrome should definitely buy retail Windows licenses instead of OEM

I would own like 12 licenses right now..

Is it known if the Retail copy actually WON'T have that in the T's & C's ? ?
It is verified, I'll re-quote from my own retail-boxed XP Pro 32-bit EULA, if I can even find it in this huge thread...

14. SOFTWARE TRANSFER. Internal.

You may move the Software to a different Workstation
Computer. After the transfer, you must completely remove
the Software from the former Workstation Computer.


Sweet.

Thanks Mech
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,542
10,167
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Originally posted by: Smilin
Mmm, by your example think of it more as buying a new house and it coming with a free car. Use the car for as long as you own the home but if you move elsewhere you'll either need a free car there or you'll have to go retail and buy your own car.
Perhaps a better analogy, would be if you purchased a new home, and it came with "car included" - included secretly into the cost for the house, but houses aren't sold without cars. Due to unlawful market control by a monopolist, most homes come with a "brand X" car. Many people would prefer to save the cost of the included "free" car, and purchase a different brand of car, but it is virtually impossible to purchase a home without a "brand X" car, and most homes only include garage space for a single car, so many people simply choose to drive that existing car.

However, the home + force-bundled car purchase has all the appearance of a sale transaction. But if it is not truely a sale (of both items), then it should be clearly described as what it really is, because if it isn't - that's FRAUD.
Originally posted by: Smilin
Larry you are the single most annoying !#$@ I have ever seen on AT. Just thought you should know.
Thank you.
Originally posted by: Smilin
No I didn't say that at all and you ****** know it. Gawd you are annoying. You put words into my mouth and it wasn't my analogy to begin with.
I was reversing the analogy back from houses + cars to PCs + Windows OS, based on what you suggested.
Originally posted by: Smilin
MS owns Windows right? (you'll probably even argue this I bet)
MS can decide who they want to sell it to right?
It just so happens they decided to sell it to NOBODY. That's right they don't sell it.
Ah, the intentional vagueness of the corporate party line. Please clearly define "it". Are you speaking of the software's copyright itself, or of a lawfully-made, tangible copy of that copyrighted work? Because copyright law is clear about lawfully-made, tangible copies of a copyrighted work that are sold onto the open market. Contract law is likewise clear about a "sale" - it results in a transfer of ownership, not simply a transfer of mere possession, and likewise, copyright law DOES NOT restrict PRIVATE USE of a tangible copy of a copyrighted work that someone OWNs.

See, here's part of MS's slight-of-hand / mind-control-machine at work.

Clearly, when you purchase a copy of software, you are not purchasing the copyright to that software. MS (and others) are vague about claiming that you haven't bought anything at all, because that allows them to more easily attempt to hookwink the populous (and court judges), into believing that that purchasers of lawfully-made copies of software don't have any ownership rights. But they do - MS's claim is all an illusion.

The physical CDs that litter most people's computer rooms, are most certainly evidence that software companies DO SELL copies of their software. Trying to claim that "MS doesn't sell software", is bull-pucky. They most certainly do sell tangible, lawfully-made copies (CDs) containing their copyrighted work, into the open market.
Originally posted by: Smilin
The sell a LICENSE to USE it.
They sell this license under a contract.
Funny how copyright law itself does not restrict private use (as I mentioned above). This is another plank of MS's slight-of-hand regarding copyright law. If I own a lawfully-made copy, I can use it how I want to - at least as far as copyright law goes. I don't need a "license to use" - because there is no such thing. A grant of license is necessary, for those things that are OTHERWISE RESTRICTED by copyright law - but private use IS NOT.
Originally posted by: Smilin
Being the copyright holder they can determine the rules of that contract and make up whatever rules they choose. You are not obliged to buy this license but if you do you are held to the contract (EULA).
Ah, now we're getting into contract law. Do you realized that an after-the-fact disclaimer, forced upon the purchaser, does not a valid contract make. There is no "meeting of the minds". Do you realize that the actual purchase transaction forms an implied contract, and at that point, the purchaser OWNS a lawfully-made copy of the copyrighted work, and therefore already has the right to use the work privately?
Originally posted by: Smilin
Before you start in with some tripe about fair use, doctrine of first use and all that BS know that this has been upheld in courts time and time again.
Well, here's a comment on the OEM unbundling ruling in Germany and of several state courts upholding the Doctrine of First Sale as well. (I admit, not the greatest source after five min of Googling - I will spend some further time digging up some actual cases.)
Originally posted by: Smilin
A Zealot is someone with absolute unshakable belief in something AND that refuses to stop talking about it. You are a Zealot. I've never seen a discussion with you that didn't end up being some huge assed annoying crock of ******. You've been living under a rock somewhere for the past few months why don't you go crawl back under it. I can't believe I actually said something nice to you in another thread. I completely regret it because you haven't changed a bit. If we were all contestants on survivor and it came time to do the big voting circle or whatever I would cast my vote then promptly walk over and kick you square in the nuts repeatedly until you passed out. You are more annoying than the next fifty most annoying people on AT combined. I swear someone replaced your liver with a hoover vacuum because there is no other way you could suck so much. Do us all a favor, go sit in a corner and stab yourself repeatedly until the suck drains out of you. If I get banned for flaming your instigating ass so be it. Never in history since Al Gore invented the internet has there been such an annoying person so deserving of an ass chewing. In summary I hate you. STFU. Die.
This is a fun thread, isn't it? I give you mad props for the extreme hyperbole contained in the above. The funny thing is, people basically felt the same way about Jesus, and he was crucified, primarily, simply because of his severe annoyances to the powers-that-be. (Jewish leaders and Roman gov't leaders.)

I admit it, I'm a "zealot". A zealot for truth, and fairness. The actual copyright law, and pre-existing contract law dating back to the "common law" era, is very fair and balanced, overall. Corporate (MS) EULAs, and adhesion "contracts" with one-sided onerous terms, are not.

I believe in the truth, more than just a general sheep-like consensus, unlike most people it seems that prefer to be spoon-fed what their reality is supposed to be, rather than digging deeper and finding out for themselves what the reality really IS. There are a number of forces out there that want to deny you your true reality, so that they can control it for you. The Microsoft mind-control machine is just one of those forces.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,542
10,167
126
Originally posted by: MrChad
:roll:

You know what, Smilin, I appreciate 99 percent of your contributions to this forum, but this is out of line and possibly worthy of a vacation. I disagree with a number of things that VirtualLarry says, but he is always well-spoken and thoughtful, and he has not resorted to personal attacks of any sort.
I appreciate your support for my findings of facts, but that's not entirely true. I did make a comment about Smilin selling his soul (to MS), which in hindsight probably did cross the line of "getting personal", and I'd like to apologize for that. But I have to admit his "diss" was pretty impressive.
Originally posted by: MrChad
And despite what you and corporate rhetoric might say regarding the legality of EULAs, they HAVE been contested in court and not all of those cases have been ruled in favor of software publishers. Microsoft lost a case in California because they were holding users to an EULA that could not be read before the point of sale. There is some ambiguity regarding what is and is not legal with EULAs, and it is discussion-worthy. If you're not interested in having a civil discussion, piss off.
Well, that's a good sign (for California, at least).

Once you know and understand the truth of the law, the fictional picture that these companies are attempting to paint, becomes much more clear, and easier to see through.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,542
10,167
126
Originally posted by: mechBgon
From my career as a bicycle mechanic, I learned was that it's not enough to say OMG I SEE A PROBLEM!!!11!!, unless I also have solutions to offer. Otherwise I'm just a dog in the manger. :roll: So I'd be curious to hear what the objectors in this thread think is a viable alternative to the existing licensing model. Do they want Microsoft (and Cisco, and Nero, and Roxio, and every other OEM software maker) to grandfather every OEM license into full retail at no cost, or what do they want?

I would be sufficiently happy, for software companies to simply respect the law, rather than perpetrating falsehoods. That's all, really.

If I sell you a bicycle, wouldn't you be upset to learn - AFTER the fact of the sale, that you were restricted on what roads you could ride upon, based on some hidden "contract" taped inside the box that the parts came in? And that you had to pay me more money, for an "all roads bicycle license"?

It's a very real question of ownership and property rights - both corporate and private. Whether we regress back to the days of feudalism, at the behest of greedy, politically well-positioned tech corporations, or whether we maintain and uphold existing standards of jurisprudence and history, and clearly affirm - as a society - the rights of private ownership, and respect for a fair and balanced set of laws.

It is both a simple question, and perhaps one of the most important political topics of our day.

If we don't truely own what we purchase - then what are we? Serfs? Slaves? Clearly, if so, then we are NOT "freemen". :|
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
Crummy analogy, but in point of fact, I actually am restricted on what roads I can ride my bicycle on. I can't ride on Interstate 90 within areas of greater than 50,000 population, I can't ride on certain bits of Division Street... but then again, there are roads here where I could drive my bicycle but not my car, and roads where I could drive my bike or my car, but not a delivery truck or a semi. That's life in society for ya The bicycle doesn't come with a warning label to tell me that, it's the way things are. If I don't like those provisions of law, I can write to my lawmakers. Ranting on the Internet is ok if you want to vent about The Way Things Are, but it doesn't change anything.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,542
10,167
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Originally posted by: Smilin
Oh, and before I'm banned
Nah, you're Smilin, you won't be banned. Our discussions are entertaining for AT, they generate pageviews and ad revenue. Although I guess you find them laborious, sorry about that. I find the topic to be a legitimate one, and still a "grey area" legally, until some final Supreme Court decision is handed down on the matter, although existing copyright and contract law is pretty clear (at least to me).

Originally posted by: Smilin
lemme add some food for thought to the discussion. Not everyone may agree with me but at least a Judge does:
http://www.eff.org/IP/Emulation/Blizzard_v_bnetd/20040930BNETDOrder.pdf
In this contract claim, the plaintiffs are alleging that the contract creates a right not existing
under copyright law, a right based upon defendants? agreement to the EULA and TOU with Blizzard.
The Court agrees that the contractual restriction does create a right not existing under copyright law.
The right created is the right to restrict the use of the software through the EULAs and TOU. ?Absent
the parties' agreement, this restriction would not exist.
This is in fact a very important point, that the judge is pointing out, and it agrees with one of the things that I have been saying - copyright law itself DOES NOT restrict private use.

Any such further restrictions placed on the owner of said software would have to have a root in contract law, which is what the judge is saying.
The contractual restriction on use of the
programs constitutes an extra element that makes this cause of action qualitatively different from one
for copyright.
IOW, this is primarily a contract dispute, and not a copyright one.
The Court finds the EULAs and TOU are enforceable under the UCC. First, the defendants
did not purchase the Blizzard software, rather they purchased a license for the software. A sale
consists in the passing of title from the seller to the buyer. Mo. Rev. Stat. § 400.2-106(1) (2000).
When defendants purchased the games, they bought a license to use the software, but did not buy the software.
Unfortunately, the judge is being "stupid" here. This case has been widely regarded as a poor decision in many circles. Clearly, the software sold at retail, has all the appearances of a sale. The judge is either confused, or likely (mis-)interpreting "title", to the benefit of the software company. Copyright law makes many references to the term "lawfully-made copy", regarding copyrighted works.

For an alternate take, in the "Adobe vs. Softman" case, the judge had a hard time buying the line that Adobe, a software company, "does not sell software". Tit for tat.

Defendants' argument parallels the first sale doctrine," although defendants do not use this
term.

Under the first sale doctrine, "a sale of a lawfully made copy terminates a copyright holder's
authority to interfere with subsequent sales or distribution of that particular copy." Adobe Sys. Inc.,
84 F.Supp.2d at 1089 (citations omitted). "The first sale doctrine is only triggered by an actual sale.
So is the judge insinuating here, that the purchaser of the Blizzard game, did NOT purchase a "lawfully made copy"? (IOW, he warezed the game?)

Or that the store fraudulently "sold" a lawfully-made copy of the work, when it was not actually a sale?

Or that the copy of the work at issue and in possession of the purchaser, was in fact NOT "lawfully-made" (eg. counterfeit)?

Comprehending the logic of those issues, leads to an understanding of why many consider this case to be a bad judgement in those respects.
Accordingly, a copyright owner does not forfeit his right of distribution by entering into a licensing agreement." Id. Section 117 of the Copyright Act provides that copies of computer programs may
be "leased, sold, or otherwise transferred . . . only with the authorization of the copyright owner." 17
U.S.C. § 117(b).
To apply the first sale doctrine and the exceptions of § 117, there must
be an authorized transfer of ownership. Either a licensee can never be
the owner of a copy for purposes of § 117 or ownership of the licensed
copy depends on the terms of the license agreement. First, it must be
determined what are the express terms of the contract?
Last time I checked, purchasing ("lawfully-made copies" of) software at retail, did not have any "express terms" as part of the sale.
When license terms provide that ownership of the copy remains in the copyright
owner, they preclude the transfer of title to the copy of the license.
Raymond T. Nimmer, LAW OF COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY: RIGHTS LICENSES LIABILITIES § 7:69 (3d
ed. 2003)
Well, if that is true, that selling (copies of) software at retail, does not actually constitute purchase, and transfer of ownership (of said copies), then the store "selling" them, IS GUILTY OF FRAUD. The software companies are complict and aiding and abedding that fraud as well, then.

Btw, is that last one a case cite, or a cite from someone's book?
Originally posted by: Smilin
Although I welcome other's discussion: Larry if you wish to get along with me at any point in the future, please refrain from replying to this post. It is your choice of course.
Ehh, sorry, cannot comply. I believe in the right to freedom of speech, at least at the behest of those hosting this discussion forum.

As far as the Blizzard case goes, I have a couple of things to say - first of all, that's not simply a sale of software, it's an online service, and I'm quite willing to accept that contract law views that slightly differently. Online TOSes, if displayed prior to actually using the service, as a condition of continuing use of that service, seem likely to be valid to me. They are legally different than an after-the-purchase-fact EULA, primarily in the area of "consideration". A continuing service (online game), clearly could serve as the "consideration" for agreeing to the TOS as a condition of access. Whereas, purchase of software at retail - you pay for the box at the store, and there is no TOS or EULA displayed at point-of-sale, and it is not required as a condition of sale for that agreement to occur. Therefore, that is the entirety of the implied purchase contract (at point of sale). The attempt at an adhesion contract later on at time of installation - there is no further consideration, thus there can be no valid contract. Someone already purchased a lawfully-made copy of the copyrighted work, and thus has the legal right to use that work privately - an important point that the judge in that case actually affirmed.

(Edited to fix one quote bug)
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,542
10,167
126
Originally posted by: BriGy86
one analogy would be buying the same CD for every CD player you want to play that particular music on
(but i suppose that's the next step for the RIAA)

Bingo. Welcome to the cruel world of DRM ("digital handcuffs").

Supposedly, that's already in the works for Blu-Ray players, that you will not be able to take a movie disc to a friend's house, because the disc "keys" itself to the first player that plays it, such that subsequent attempts to view in a different player fail.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,542
10,167
126
Originally posted by: Kibbo86
How's this for an extention of your analogy:

Imagine a deal between a property developper and GM. GM gives new buyers of this property a deal on the new Saturn Ion Quad Coupe for $4900, (reg MSRP $13,940) so long as they only use it as long as they live in that neighbourhood.

Then you bitch and complain that when you move from that home, you can't use that car elsewhere without paying more.
No, I have no problem with that, as long as it is: a) disclosed up-front, and as b) a condition, and a part of the actual sale (implied or explicit purchase contract). The biggest problem with shrink-wrap EULAs, are that they are intentionally hidden, after-the-fact, attempts at restricting people beyond what copyright law provides for.

If I go to CompUSA (for example), and want to buy a copy of software, the clerk should whip out a pre-printed copy of the EULA and ask me to sign it. There is also the issue of parties to the contract - it would require that the stores actually act as sales agents for the software company in question, rather than just resellers of SKUs. That would mean that I could potentially attempt to deal with them, and also to modify the contract (aka the "meeting of the minds" of a contract), and that changes mutually agreed-upon by both parties would in fact be binding (if they were in fact sales agents of say, Microsoft). That would be all nice and valid and legal, in my mind. The after-the-fact shrink-wrap EULAs - even the FTC finds them "deceptive".
Originally posted by: Kibbo86
I fully suport the idea that Microsoft has a legal and moral right to determine the final destiny of its product.
Copyright law does not support that. The First Sale Doctrine contradicts that as well. They have the right to sell their lawfully-made copies of copyrighted works into the free market. They also have the right to contract. But once those items are sold, they have no further legal ability to control re-sale or use.

Originally posted by: Kibbo86
The fact that it can get away with treating its customers so shabbily without significant marketshare loss is the truest sign of a de facto monopoly, and thus that the state should intervene in order to promulgate the public good.
It tried (MS anti-trust trial), but then things become more political (Bush was "elected" into office), and then the DOJ got all kid-gloves on the thing.

Originally posted by: Kibbo86
In this particular case, the public good would be best served by a policy that ensures a universal OS, suported by most hardware and software, that allows the user to transfer it over many incarnations of a "computer," without costing the end-user a prohibitive fee.
I've been designing something like that for the last few years, actually. One of the design principles is a sort of organic, self-similar design.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,542
10,167
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Originally posted by: Smilin
Although well spoken if you look closely every one of his posts is confrontational and he has a particular knack for abrasively bringing unrelated fud into the discussion.
Well-spoken: Thank you.
Confrontational: Yes, at least online.
Abrasive: Perhaps.
Unrelated FUD: Hmm, that depends on whether you are considering my opinions and predictions to be FUD, or my attempt at statements of fact.

I intentionally avoid going into threads where he is but he doesn't return the favor. Based on the half dozen PMs I've gotten on this I'm not the only one that feels this way.
Sorry I failed to see that.. I think.

I just seize the opportunity to "preach the gospel". Like they say, "the truth shall set you free".

The number of positive, supporting comments, on my viewpoints and references, suggest that I am not alone, nor outright "incorrect". I readily agree that in the US courts today, this is still a grey area, but it really shouldn't be, if they were more willing to enforce the law, and stand up, fairly, for the "little guy" as well and as much as for the rich and powerful corporations. It's a complex political dynamic, unfortunately, with US exports on the wane, and IP-based companies on the rise. It would seem political suicide for judges to rule strongly against any of these companies, regardless of what the law says or intends. That's part of the problem, and why education (for those that care), is so important in the fight to preserve the rights of individuals.
Originally posted by: Smilin
If I offended anyone other than the intended, please accept my apology. The comment about language is duly noted.
Honestly? I just laughed. Then again, perhaps you do that when I post. I dunno.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: doornail
Your response is one that is being conditioned into the mentally of consumers that is really a form of misdirection. I choose the examples above (a game and a music cd) for this very reason. All of these are examples of copyrighted works. Software companies want you believe that you magically have far fewer rights because you're buying a "license" but that's bunk. You have a CD containing a copyrighted work that you paid for. It's your property.

If they sat each customer down with lawyers and drew up a contract for every sale, sure then they can limit rights by mutual agreement. If they want to sell stuff on the shelf at Wal*Mart then it's like music cd, game, or a book.

Amen. Someone that understands copyright law, and what is really going on here.

MS wants to have their cake, and eat it too. It can't go both ways. Unfortunately, some judges have been complicit in allowing essentially just that.

 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
Your response is one that is being conditioned into the mentally of consumers that is really a form of misdirection. I choose the examples above (a game and a music cd) for this very reason. All of these are examples of copyrighted works. Software companies want you believe that you magically have far fewer rights because you're buying a "license" but that's bunk. You have a CD containing a copyrighted work that you paid for. It's your property.
Keep dreaming. Microsoft will sell you a WinXP Pro CD for $25, just call them up. You can copy the files from that CD onto your server, and use Microsoft's own Remote Installation Services to mass-deploy that same set of files to 100,000 computers, for all they care. Because they didn't sell you the right to use the files when you bought the CD, it's just the delivery vehicle.

Got 100,000 licenses? Then you're all set, $25 for a CD and you're on your way.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
Originally posted by: mechBgon
From my career as a bicycle mechanic, I learned was that it's not enough to say OMG I SEE A PROBLEM!!!11!!, unless I also have solutions to offer. Otherwise I'm just a dog in the manger. :roll: So I'd be curious to hear what the objectors in this thread think is a viable alternative to the existing licensing model. Do they want Microsoft (and Cisco, and Nero, and Roxio, and every other OEM software maker) to grandfather every OEM license into full retail at no cost, or what do they want?

I would be sufficiently happy, for software companies to simply respect the law, rather than perpetrating falsehoods. That's all, really.

If I sell you a bicycle, wouldn't you be upset to learn - AFTER the fact of the sale, that you were restricted on what roads you could ride upon, based on some hidden "contract" taped inside the box that the parts came in? And that you had to pay me more money, for an "all roads bicycle license"?

It's a very real question of ownership and property rights - both corporate and private. Whether we regress back to the days of feudalism, at the behest of greedy, politically well-positioned tech corporations, or whether we maintain and uphold existing standards of jurisprudence and history, and clearly affirm - as a society - the rights of private ownership, and respect for a fair and balanced set of laws.

It is both a simple question, and perhaps one of the most important political topics of our day.

If we don't truely own what we purchase - then what are we? Serfs? Slaves? Clearly, if so, then we are NOT "freemen". :|
But you are a "freeman"

If you don't wanna be microsofts "surf" then don't purchase the licence.. Simple enough solution vs. medievil times where you had no choice but to slave away 18 hours on your dukes land or to the gallows you go - no trail - no jury.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,542
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Originally posted by: Matthias99
One of the big problems with the current model of copyright law (as I see it) is that there is essentially zero meaning anymore to "owning a copy" of a piece of intellectual property when perfect or near-perfect "copies" of content can be made by almost anyone for far less than the original probably cost you. This made sense a hundred years ago (or, hell, even 20 or 30 years ago), when 'copying' anything substantial was either expensive, time-consuming, impossible, resulted in dramatically reduced quality, or all of the above.

IMO, what you are really "buying" when you "purchase" IP is the right to use that IP, with some restrictions (for instance, you can't redistribute it) -- for all intents and purposes, an implied contract that is defined (poorly) by current copyright law. If all such transactions were legally phrased like that, you could actually cleanly define what things you are and are not allowed to do with the IP, and you could require that such restrictions are made very clear up front. It eliminates a lot of these sorts of inconsistencies. That's what I'm saying, not that you should completely eliminate the right of first sale or fair use (or other consumer rights).

I realize that modern internet-related technologies make it trivially easy to violate copyright law for digitally-encoded content, but that's no reason to throw away the baby with the bath-water. Btw, there is no restrictions in copyright law in terms of a private "right to use". What you are describing is essentially tecnological feudalism, where individuals have no rights of private ownership. The history of this country was founded on principles opposite to that - the right to private ownership of property is codified in many places in US law and history. I have a hard time believing that you would want to move from a model of private ownership, to that of one where the ownership rests with a powerful minority, and they can change the "rules" at any time, to continue to keep individuals jumping through increasingly-impossible hoops, all to make a profit.

The DRM issue is likewise similar - the concept is that you pay money, and you don't actually own anything, just a limited "license" to something, that could change or disappear at any time. No real ownership, and therefore no real ownership rights.

I fully support the rights of copyright owners - according to the law. But attempting to bypass and dictate the law, to destroy the balance of rights, giving individuals no rights, and corporations all the rights - I am strongly opposed to that.
 

kuba

Senior member
Sep 11, 2005
298
0
0
Hmmm, i wonder how steep the linux learning curve is...and if i can get photoshop for it
lol
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,542
10,167
126
Originally posted by: mechBgon
Crummy analogy, but in point of fact, I actually am restricted on what roads I can ride my bicycle on. I can't ride on Interstate 90 within areas of greater than 50,000 population, I can't ride on certain bits of Division Street... but then again, there are roads here where I could drive my bicycle but not my car, and roads where I could drive my bike or my car, but not a delivery truck or a semi. That's life in society for ya The bicycle doesn't come with a warning label to tell me that, it's the way things are. If I don't like those provisions of law, I can write to my lawmakers. Ranting on the Internet is ok if you want to vent about The Way Things Are, but it doesn't change anything.

But those are restrictions that the law itself makes. Much like copyright law - you can't buy a copy of a book, or a piece of software, and then make 10,000 copies and re-sell them - that's prohibited by law.

I was talking about abitrary restrictions over and above the provisions of law itself, designed primarily only to inflate the profits of the seller, at a significant cost to the rights of the purchaser.
 
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