I know thatStash I didn't mean that making money is bad, not at all
Papa Johns sucks.
I know thatStash I didn't mean that making money is bad, not at all
Here, I'll help... oh good, *this* delivery guy only has a Ford Escort...Originally posted by: RebateMonger
You guys are making me hungry. I had a "Lean Cuisine" for dinner. Maybe I've earned a Pizza midnight snack?
Correct, there is nothing 'new' about this policy, it has always been the case at least since Windows XP was released, probably before. I have stated a few times in months-old if not year-old discussions on product activation to never tell Microsoft Activation Support that you upgraded to a new motherboard as a reason for re-activating, but instead that you replaced a defective motherboard, because the OEM license only transfers to a new motherboard replaced for reason of defect or failure.Hasn't this always been the case? I always thought that the OEM license was paired with the botherboard.
LOL! How sad is the fact that you and I have already had this discussion before, and I conclusively settled that you were wrong then, and you are still wrong now, but you keep spewing the same old argument? Even the Electronic Frontier Foundation says you're wrong and I'm right. Again, from our last discussion, software rights are LICENSED through acts of compliance, they are not sold:Stop right there. You're making my point beautifully. OEM software is NOT a rental or lease. It is a PURCHASE - a SALE. Which confers OWNERSHIP, and certain rights that go along with that.
The fact that you can't see that truth is sad.
Originally posted by: mechBgon
People infected with Compulsive Upgrade Syndrome should definitely buy retail Windows licenses instead of OEM
Originally posted by: RebateMonger
You guys are making me hungry. I had a "Lean Cuisine" for dinner. Maybe I've earned a Pizza midnight snack?
It is verified, I'll re-quote from my own retail-boxed XP Pro 32-bit EULA, if I can even find it in this huge thread...Originally posted by: bjc112
Originally posted by: mechBgon
People infected with Compulsive Upgrade Syndrome should definitely buy retail Windows licenses instead of OEM
I would own like 12 licenses right now..
Is it known if the Retail copy actually WON'T have that in the T's & C's ? ?
14. SOFTWARE TRANSFER. Internal.
You may move the Software to a different Workstation
Computer. After the transfer, you must completely remove
the Software from the former Workstation Computer.
Originally posted by: mechBgon
It is verified, I'll re-quote from my own retail-boxed XP Pro 32-bit EULA, if I can even find it in this huge thread...Originally posted by: bjc112
Originally posted by: mechBgon
People infected with Compulsive Upgrade Syndrome should definitely buy retail Windows licenses instead of OEM
I would own like 12 licenses right now..
Is it known if the Retail copy actually WON'T have that in the T's & C's ? ?
14. SOFTWARE TRANSFER. Internal.
You may move the Software to a different Workstation
Computer. After the transfer, you must completely remove
the Software from the former Workstation Computer.
Perhaps a better analogy, would be if you purchased a new home, and it came with "car included" - included secretly into the cost for the house, but houses aren't sold without cars. Due to unlawful market control by a monopolist, most homes come with a "brand X" car. Many people would prefer to save the cost of the included "free" car, and purchase a different brand of car, but it is virtually impossible to purchase a home without a "brand X" car, and most homes only include garage space for a single car, so many people simply choose to drive that existing car.Originally posted by: Smilin
Mmm, by your example think of it more as buying a new house and it coming with a free car. Use the car for as long as you own the home but if you move elsewhere you'll either need a free car there or you'll have to go retail and buy your own car.
Thank you.Originally posted by: Smilin
Larry you are the single most annoying !#$@ I have ever seen on AT. Just thought you should know.
I was reversing the analogy back from houses + cars to PCs + Windows OS, based on what you suggested.Originally posted by: Smilin
No I didn't say that at all and you ****** know it. Gawd you are annoying. You put words into my mouth and it wasn't my analogy to begin with.
Ah, the intentional vagueness of the corporate party line. Please clearly define "it". Are you speaking of the software's copyright itself, or of a lawfully-made, tangible copy of that copyrighted work? Because copyright law is clear about lawfully-made, tangible copies of a copyrighted work that are sold onto the open market. Contract law is likewise clear about a "sale" - it results in a transfer of ownership, not simply a transfer of mere possession, and likewise, copyright law DOES NOT restrict PRIVATE USE of a tangible copy of a copyrighted work that someone OWNs.Originally posted by: Smilin
MS owns Windows right? (you'll probably even argue this I bet)
MS can decide who they want to sell it to right?
It just so happens they decided to sell it to NOBODY. That's right they don't sell it.
Funny how copyright law itself does not restrict private use (as I mentioned above). This is another plank of MS's slight-of-hand regarding copyright law. If I own a lawfully-made copy, I can use it how I want to - at least as far as copyright law goes. I don't need a "license to use" - because there is no such thing. A grant of license is necessary, for those things that are OTHERWISE RESTRICTED by copyright law - but private use IS NOT.Originally posted by: Smilin
The sell a LICENSE to USE it.
They sell this license under a contract.
Ah, now we're getting into contract law. Do you realized that an after-the-fact disclaimer, forced upon the purchaser, does not a valid contract make. There is no "meeting of the minds". Do you realize that the actual purchase transaction forms an implied contract, and at that point, the purchaser OWNS a lawfully-made copy of the copyrighted work, and therefore already has the right to use the work privately?Originally posted by: Smilin
Being the copyright holder they can determine the rules of that contract and make up whatever rules they choose. You are not obliged to buy this license but if you do you are held to the contract (EULA).
Well, here's a comment on the OEM unbundling ruling in Germany and of several state courts upholding the Doctrine of First Sale as well. (I admit, not the greatest source after five min of Googling - I will spend some further time digging up some actual cases.)Originally posted by: Smilin
Before you start in with some tripe about fair use, doctrine of first use and all that BS know that this has been upheld in courts time and time again.
This is a fun thread, isn't it? I give you mad props for the extreme hyperbole contained in the above. The funny thing is, people basically felt the same way about Jesus, and he was crucified, primarily, simply because of his severe annoyances to the powers-that-be. (Jewish leaders and Roman gov't leaders.)Originally posted by: Smilin
A Zealot is someone with absolute unshakable belief in something AND that refuses to stop talking about it. You are a Zealot. I've never seen a discussion with you that didn't end up being some huge assed annoying crock of ******. You've been living under a rock somewhere for the past few months why don't you go crawl back under it. I can't believe I actually said something nice to you in another thread. I completely regret it because you haven't changed a bit. If we were all contestants on survivor and it came time to do the big voting circle or whatever I would cast my vote then promptly walk over and kick you square in the nuts repeatedly until you passed out. You are more annoying than the next fifty most annoying people on AT combined. I swear someone replaced your liver with a hoover vacuum because there is no other way you could suck so much. Do us all a favor, go sit in a corner and stab yourself repeatedly until the suck drains out of you. If I get banned for flaming your instigating ass so be it. Never in history since Al Gore invented the internet has there been such an annoying person so deserving of an ass chewing. In summary I hate you. STFU. Die.
I appreciate your support for my findings of facts, but that's not entirely true. I did make a comment about Smilin selling his soul (to MS), which in hindsight probably did cross the line of "getting personal", and I'd like to apologize for that. But I have to admit his "diss" was pretty impressive.Originally posted by: MrChad
:roll:
You know what, Smilin, I appreciate 99 percent of your contributions to this forum, but this is out of line and possibly worthy of a vacation. I disagree with a number of things that VirtualLarry says, but he is always well-spoken and thoughtful, and he has not resorted to personal attacks of any sort.
Well, that's a good sign (for California, at least).Originally posted by: MrChad
And despite what you and corporate rhetoric might say regarding the legality of EULAs, they HAVE been contested in court and not all of those cases have been ruled in favor of software publishers. Microsoft lost a case in California because they were holding users to an EULA that could not be read before the point of sale. There is some ambiguity regarding what is and is not legal with EULAs, and it is discussion-worthy. If you're not interested in having a civil discussion, piss off.
Originally posted by: mechBgon
From my career as a bicycle mechanic, I learned was that it's not enough to say OMG I SEE A PROBLEM!!!11!!, unless I also have solutions to offer. Otherwise I'm just a dog in the manger. :roll: So I'd be curious to hear what the objectors in this thread think is a viable alternative to the existing licensing model. Do they want Microsoft (and Cisco, and Nero, and Roxio, and every other OEM software maker) to grandfather every OEM license into full retail at no cost, or what do they want?
Nah, you're Smilin, you won't be banned. Our discussions are entertaining for AT, they generate pageviews and ad revenue. Although I guess you find them laborious, sorry about that. I find the topic to be a legitimate one, and still a "grey area" legally, until some final Supreme Court decision is handed down on the matter, although existing copyright and contract law is pretty clear (at least to me).Originally posted by: Smilin
Oh, and before I'm banned
This is in fact a very important point, that the judge is pointing out, and it agrees with one of the things that I have been saying - copyright law itself DOES NOT restrict private use.Originally posted by: Smilin
lemme add some food for thought to the discussion. Not everyone may agree with me but at least a Judge does:
http://www.eff.org/IP/Emulation/Blizzard_v_bnetd/20040930BNETDOrder.pdf
In this contract claim, the plaintiffs are alleging that the contract creates a right not existing
under copyright law, a right based upon defendants? agreement to the EULA and TOU with Blizzard.
The Court agrees that the contractual restriction does create a right not existing under copyright law.
The right created is the right to restrict the use of the software through the EULAs and TOU. ?Absent
the parties' agreement, this restriction would not exist.
IOW, this is primarily a contract dispute, and not a copyright one.The contractual restriction on use of the
programs constitutes an extra element that makes this cause of action qualitatively different from one
for copyright.
Unfortunately, the judge is being "stupid" here. This case has been widely regarded as a poor decision in many circles. Clearly, the software sold at retail, has all the appearances of a sale. The judge is either confused, or likely (mis-)interpreting "title", to the benefit of the software company. Copyright law makes many references to the term "lawfully-made copy", regarding copyrighted works.The Court finds the EULAs and TOU are enforceable under the UCC. First, the defendants
did not purchase the Blizzard software, rather they purchased a license for the software. A sale
consists in the passing of title from the seller to the buyer. Mo. Rev. Stat. § 400.2-106(1) (2000).
When defendants purchased the games, they bought a license to use the software, but did not buy the software.
So is the judge insinuating here, that the purchaser of the Blizzard game, did NOT purchase a "lawfully made copy"? (IOW, he warezed the game?)Defendants' argument parallels the first sale doctrine," although defendants do not use this
term.
Under the first sale doctrine, "a sale of a lawfully made copy terminates a copyright holder's
authority to interfere with subsequent sales or distribution of that particular copy." Adobe Sys. Inc.,
84 F.Supp.2d at 1089 (citations omitted). "The first sale doctrine is only triggered by an actual sale.
Last time I checked, purchasing ("lawfully-made copies" of) software at retail, did not have any "express terms" as part of the sale.Accordingly, a copyright owner does not forfeit his right of distribution by entering into a licensing agreement." Id. Section 117 of the Copyright Act provides that copies of computer programs may
be "leased, sold, or otherwise transferred . . . only with the authorization of the copyright owner." 17
U.S.C. § 117(b).
To apply the first sale doctrine and the exceptions of § 117, there must
be an authorized transfer of ownership. Either a licensee can never be
the owner of a copy for purposes of § 117 or ownership of the licensed
copy depends on the terms of the license agreement. First, it must be
determined what are the express terms of the contract?
Well, if that is true, that selling (copies of) software at retail, does not actually constitute purchase, and transfer of ownership (of said copies), then the store "selling" them, IS GUILTY OF FRAUD. The software companies are complict and aiding and abedding that fraud as well, then.When license terms provide that ownership of the copy remains in the copyright
owner, they preclude the transfer of title to the copy of the license.
Raymond T. Nimmer, LAW OF COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY: RIGHTS LICENSES LIABILITIES § 7:69 (3d
ed. 2003)
Ehh, sorry, cannot comply. I believe in the right to freedom of speech, at least at the behest of those hosting this discussion forum.Originally posted by: Smilin
Although I welcome other's discussion: Larry if you wish to get along with me at any point in the future, please refrain from replying to this post. It is your choice of course.
Originally posted by: BriGy86
one analogy would be buying the same CD for every CD player you want to play that particular music on
(but i suppose that's the next step for the RIAA)
No, I have no problem with that, as long as it is: a) disclosed up-front, and as b) a condition, and a part of the actual sale (implied or explicit purchase contract). The biggest problem with shrink-wrap EULAs, are that they are intentionally hidden, after-the-fact, attempts at restricting people beyond what copyright law provides for.Originally posted by: Kibbo86
How's this for an extention of your analogy:
Imagine a deal between a property developper and GM. GM gives new buyers of this property a deal on the new Saturn Ion Quad Coupe for $4900, (reg MSRP $13,940) so long as they only use it as long as they live in that neighbourhood.
Then you bitch and complain that when you move from that home, you can't use that car elsewhere without paying more.
Copyright law does not support that. The First Sale Doctrine contradicts that as well. They have the right to sell their lawfully-made copies of copyrighted works into the free market. They also have the right to contract. But once those items are sold, they have no further legal ability to control re-sale or use.Originally posted by: Kibbo86
I fully suport the idea that Microsoft has a legal and moral right to determine the final destiny of its product.
It tried (MS anti-trust trial), but then things become more political (Bush was "elected" into office), and then the DOJ got all kid-gloves on the thing.Originally posted by: Kibbo86
The fact that it can get away with treating its customers so shabbily without significant marketshare loss is the truest sign of a de facto monopoly, and thus that the state should intervene in order to promulgate the public good.
I've been designing something like that for the last few years, actually. One of the design principles is a sort of organic, self-similar design.Originally posted by: Kibbo86
In this particular case, the public good would be best served by a policy that ensures a universal OS, suported by most hardware and software, that allows the user to transfer it over many incarnations of a "computer," without costing the end-user a prohibitive fee.
Well-spoken: Thank you.Originally posted by: Smilin
Although well spoken if you look closely every one of his posts is confrontational and he has a particular knack for abrasively bringing unrelated fud into the discussion.
Sorry I failed to see that.. I think.I intentionally avoid going into threads where he is but he doesn't return the favor. Based on the half dozen PMs I've gotten on this I'm not the only one that feels this way.
Honestly? I just laughed. Then again, perhaps you do that when I post. I dunno.Originally posted by: Smilin
If I offended anyone other than the intended, please accept my apology. The comment about language is duly noted.
Originally posted by: doornail
Your response is one that is being conditioned into the mentally of consumers that is really a form of misdirection. I choose the examples above (a game and a music cd) for this very reason. All of these are examples of copyrighted works. Software companies want you believe that you magically have far fewer rights because you're buying a "license" but that's bunk. You have a CD containing a copyrighted work that you paid for. It's your property.
If they sat each customer down with lawyers and drew up a contract for every sale, sure then they can limit rights by mutual agreement. If they want to sell stuff on the shelf at Wal*Mart then it's like music cd, game, or a book.
Keep dreaming. Microsoft will sell you a WinXP Pro CD for $25, just call them up. You can copy the files from that CD onto your server, and use Microsoft's own Remote Installation Services to mass-deploy that same set of files to 100,000 computers, for all they care. Because they didn't sell you the right to use the files when you bought the CD, it's just the delivery vehicle.Your response is one that is being conditioned into the mentally of consumers that is really a form of misdirection. I choose the examples above (a game and a music cd) for this very reason. All of these are examples of copyrighted works. Software companies want you believe that you magically have far fewer rights because you're buying a "license" but that's bunk. You have a CD containing a copyrighted work that you paid for. It's your property.
But you are a "freeman"Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
Originally posted by: mechBgon
From my career as a bicycle mechanic, I learned was that it's not enough to say OMG I SEE A PROBLEM!!!11!!, unless I also have solutions to offer. Otherwise I'm just a dog in the manger. :roll: So I'd be curious to hear what the objectors in this thread think is a viable alternative to the existing licensing model. Do they want Microsoft (and Cisco, and Nero, and Roxio, and every other OEM software maker) to grandfather every OEM license into full retail at no cost, or what do they want?
I would be sufficiently happy, for software companies to simply respect the law, rather than perpetrating falsehoods. That's all, really.
If I sell you a bicycle, wouldn't you be upset to learn - AFTER the fact of the sale, that you were restricted on what roads you could ride upon, based on some hidden "contract" taped inside the box that the parts came in? And that you had to pay me more money, for an "all roads bicycle license"?
It's a very real question of ownership and property rights - both corporate and private. Whether we regress back to the days of feudalism, at the behest of greedy, politically well-positioned tech corporations, or whether we maintain and uphold existing standards of jurisprudence and history, and clearly affirm - as a society - the rights of private ownership, and respect for a fair and balanced set of laws.
It is both a simple question, and perhaps one of the most important political topics of our day.
If we don't truely own what we purchase - then what are we? Serfs? Slaves? Clearly, if so, then we are NOT "freemen". :|
Originally posted by: Matthias99
One of the big problems with the current model of copyright law (as I see it) is that there is essentially zero meaning anymore to "owning a copy" of a piece of intellectual property when perfect or near-perfect "copies" of content can be made by almost anyone for far less than the original probably cost you. This made sense a hundred years ago (or, hell, even 20 or 30 years ago), when 'copying' anything substantial was either expensive, time-consuming, impossible, resulted in dramatically reduced quality, or all of the above.
IMO, what you are really "buying" when you "purchase" IP is the right to use that IP, with some restrictions (for instance, you can't redistribute it) -- for all intents and purposes, an implied contract that is defined (poorly) by current copyright law. If all such transactions were legally phrased like that, you could actually cleanly define what things you are and are not allowed to do with the IP, and you could require that such restrictions are made very clear up front. It eliminates a lot of these sorts of inconsistencies. That's what I'm saying, not that you should completely eliminate the right of first sale or fair use (or other consumer rights).
Originally posted by: mechBgon
Crummy analogy, but in point of fact, I actually am restricted on what roads I can ride my bicycle on. I can't ride on Interstate 90 within areas of greater than 50,000 population, I can't ride on certain bits of Division Street... but then again, there are roads here where I could drive my bicycle but not my car, and roads where I could drive my bike or my car, but not a delivery truck or a semi. That's life in society for ya The bicycle doesn't come with a warning label to tell me that, it's the way things are. If I don't like those provisions of law, I can write to my lawmakers. Ranting on the Internet is ok if you want to vent about The Way Things Are, but it doesn't change anything.