More proof the police will shoot anybody - all recent shootings

[realibrad]

Think about how we start our children off with things like cap guns, dart guns, water guns not to mention video games with a central theme of killing everything in sight. Then we reinforce this behavior with movies and tv shows where violence and gun play are normalized. This behavior is pretty much etched in stone and isn't going to change anytime soon.

Nope. If it were to change, the first place should not be police. But, its more than just a gun culture, the US has a more violent culture. Europe was built with dense cities before cars. People had to learn to live close to each other. Cities are small and cramped compared to the majority of the US.

The US was built at a time when sprawl was possible and as such people expect personal space and stronger property rights. The downside is that people for the most part did not have to deal with being cramped like in Europe. Social frictions were smoothed in Europe in the cities where the majority of people live. In the US, our culture has not evolved to deal with people in the same way. Things are just different and more violent here.

 

[realibrad]

That is one thing that is very messed up in our country, we are totally fine with violence on TV but if there is a little bit of nudity, ahmg lock it down, our kids are being corrupted. It's ass backwards.

Hey, even Europe is being more censored when it comes to nudity. Germany is asking people not to go nude as often to respect "other" cultures. You cant wear a bikini into the city from the beach in Barcelona. Sad really.

 

[Puffnstuff]

That is one thing that is very messed up in our country, we are totally fine with violence on TV but if there is a little bit of nudity, ahmg lock it down, our kids are being corrupted. It's ass backwards.

I don't know of any case where nudity killed anyone outside of sex.

 

[Jaskalas]

There were a total of 682 murders in Germany in 2015.

[Chicago] saw a surge in gun violence in 2016: 762 murders, 3,550 shooting incidents, and 4,331 shooting victims

There's more.

Gun homicides in Germany fell from 106 in 2002 to 75 in 2009 and 51 in 2010 before climbing to 61 in 2012, according to the most recent data from GunPolicy.org.

By comparison, there were 10,945 gun homicides in the United States in 2014. This May, 66 people were shot dead just in Chicago.​

Chicago has more gun violence in a month than Germany has all year.

 

[Jaskalas]

I bring this up to the cop worshippers around here. They have a mental convulsion trying to defend why 1100 a year are killed in this country by cops. And thousands more are shot when a country like Germany can have under 100 total police shootings for the entire year. Chicago probably has that many police involved shootings in a month or less.

There is probably more guns in Chicago than all of Germany :awe:

And here's some more.

Annual number of people killed by police bullets in Germany
Germany, previous 10 year average: 9
US, two year average per Guardian: 1,120

German Police Shootings VS US: 0.8%
Germany Gun Murders VS US: 0.6%

Statistically, when you account for national gun violence, US police are 25% more likely to shoot and kill people.

 

[pmv]

I don't know of any case where nudity killed anyone outside of sex.

Well, it almost did for this chap (the link title pretty much says all you need to know)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ckled-snowdon-underpants-suffers-hypothermia/

 

[alien42]

it happens at least once a year.

Your comment implies that I was somehow wrong, which is your claim. Do you have anything to back up that I was wrong?

yeah, your own words.

first you say "its not rare to have cops assassinated" and then you say "it happens at least once a year"

like i said the first time, you are full of shit and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

congrats on the self pwnage though.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Well, it almost did for this chap (the link title pretty much says all you need to know)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ckled-snowdon-underpants-suffers-hypothermia/

With that I'm now aware of an instance of nudity harming someone.

 

[realibrad]

yeah, your own words.

first you say "its not rare to have cops assassinated" and then you say "it happens at least once a year"

like i said the first time, you are full of shit and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

congrats on the self pwnage though.

So pwnage on the subjective meaning of rare. Okay. Never mind the context of what I was saying to modify the subjective meaning, just ignore that.

 

[Darwin333]

So are unarmed black men, but people sure do think its important. Last year 140 cops were killed. That said, not all were unprovoked but it happens at least once a year. That type of thing would be unheard of in other countries. For example, do you know how many UK officers were killed in the line of duty? The answer is zero. During 2016 Canada with about half the population of the UK had 9.

Different cultures have different traits. The US culture is far more violent than many other cultures. Saying that we need to remove guns from the police would be stupid in a culture that grew up on guns.

Your comment implies that I was somehow wrong, which is your claim. Do you have anything to back up that I was wrong?

Of those 140 line of duty deaths the majority were caused by non-felonious means such as traffic accidents or heart attacks while on duty. Not to mention that despite a few high-profile "ambush style" killing of LEO in 2016 the overall trend in LEO deaths has been declining over the last few decades. If you consider the amount of state and local police have nearly doubled since 1970, the per capita rate of police deaths has declined by over 2/3 since then. At the same time the overall trend in civilian deaths by LEO, based on the information we are able to gather since amazingly there is no standard or requirement for individual agencies to report them, has been steadily rising currently trending around 1,000 police killings by GUN a year or 3 per day. That number doesn't even include the guy that was killed from the "rough ride", abused in custody or other such incidents.

 

[woolfe9998]

Nope. If it were to change, the first place should not be police. But, its more than just a gun culture, the US has a more violent culture. Europe was built with dense cities before cars. People had to learn to live close to each other. Cities are small and cramped compared to the majority of the US.

The US was built at a time when sprawl was possible and as such people expect personal space and stronger property rights. The downside is that people for the most part did not have to deal with being cramped like in Europe. Social frictions were smoothed in Europe in the cities where the majority of people live. In the US, our culture has not evolved to deal with people in the same way. Things are just different and more violent here.

This is just plain wrong. Higher population density = higher crime rates. That's why there's generally more crime in cities than in suburbs or rural areas. People don't "learn to live close to each other." When people live too close, they commit more crime, not less.

One important difference between Europe and the US: in Europe they have a wider social safety net. There is no reason for people to commit crime out of economic desperation. Another difference: in the US, popular culture glorifies violence much more so than in other cultures. Yes, liberal Hollywood does that, because it sells.

 

[realibrad]

Of those 140 line of duty deaths the majority were caused by non-felonious means such as traffic accidents or heart attacks while on duty. Not to mention that despite a few high-profile "ambush style" killing of LEO in 2016 the overall trend in LEO deaths has been declining over the last few decades. If you consider the amount of state and local police have nearly doubled since 1970, the per capita rate of police deaths has declined by over 2/3 since then. At the same time the overall trend in civilian deaths by LEO, based on the information we are able to gather since amazingly there is no standard or requirement for individual agencies to report them, has been steadily rising currently trending around 1,000 police killings by GUN a year or 3 per day. That number doesn't even include the guy that was killed from the "rough ride", abused in custody or other such incidents.

40 LEOs have been killed in ambush murders from 2014. In 2016 63 of the 140 were deaths by guns.

9/11 related illness: 4
Aircraft accident: 1
Animal related: 1
Assault: 3
Automobile crash: 20
Drowned: 2
Duty related illness: 1
Fall: 1
Gunfire: 63
Gunfire (Accidental): 3
Heart attack: 11
Motorcycle crash: 8
Stabbed: 1
Struck by train: 1
Struck by vehicle: 9
Vehicle pursuit: 4
Vehicular assault: 13

Those are the causes of death. You can see that the majority are Gunfire and some type of assault. You would never see these types of numbers (adjusted for population) in the UK as its a different culture. If you take guns away from US police before the culture changes then you will make things worse.

 

[realibrad]

This is just plain wrong. Higher population density = higher crime rates. That's why there's generally more crime in cities than in suburbs or rural areas. People don't "learn to live close to each other." When people live too close, they commit more crime, not less.

One important difference between Europe and the US: in Europe they have a wider social safety net. There is no reason for people to commit crime out of economic desperation. Another difference: in the US, popular culture glorifies violence much more so than in other cultures. Yes, liberal Hollywood does that, because it sells.

Wrong, and you are not thinking critically. In the short run taking people and adding them into a dense environment will increase frictions and raise crime. Further, you increase the number of interactions and you will see a short term increase. In the long run, which is clearly what I was talking about, you see less crime. The reason for this is any successful society must learn to be less violent and or reduce crime. Long ago Europe moved into cities before major forms of transportation which forced people to interact. No doubt there was lots of problems from this but eventually those smoothed out.

As for social safety, explain cities all over CA that have high crime rates and huge social programs. For your claim to be true, you should see less crime in cities where they have massive social programs aimed at the poor.

 

[Darwin333]

40 LEOs have been killed in ambush murders from 2014. In 2016 63 of the 140 were deaths by guns.

9/11 related illness: 4
Aircraft accident: 1
Animal related: 1
Assault: 3
Automobile crash: 20
Drowned: 2
Duty related illness: 1
Fall: 1
Gunfire: 63
Gunfire (Accidental): 3
Heart attack: 11
Motorcycle crash: 8
Stabbed: 1
Struck by train: 1
Struck by vehicle: 9
Vehicle pursuit: 4
Vehicular assault: 13

Those are the causes of death. You can see that the majority are Gunfire and some type of assault. You would never see these types of numbers (adjusted for population) in the UK as its a different culture. If you take guns away from US police before the culture changes then you will make things worse.

63 LEOs killed with guns versus well over a 1,000 civilians were killed by LEOs with guns and I'd wager a months pay that far more than 63 of those deaths were of unarmed people. I've never actually made the argument that US LEO shouldn't have guns, I have made the argument that they use them way too often and way too quickly.

A side note, I read through some of those deaths and while all sad, did you know that most departments don't count it as a "homicide by police" if the person makes it to a hospital and then dies? I've even read that some only count it if you are pronounced dead at the scene meaning if you make it into the ambulance still breathing it is not counted as a homicide by police. They just count those as shot by police whereas with LEO deaths they rightfully count those deaths that are the direct cause of line of duty work.

Finally, in your opinion what is the reason we are seeing this uptick in ambush style murder of LEOs?

 

[Darwin333]

As for social safety, explain cities all over CA that have high crime rates and huge social programs. For your claim to be true, you should see less crime in cities where they have massive social programs aimed at the poor.

While social safety nets certainly do help you still can't get past the huge profits to be made in the black market created by our relentless failed war on drugs. When there is that much money to be made people will try and get a piece of the pie. The bootleggers during prohibition were quite violent in protecting their profits as well. Do you hear of many people getting into shootouts while making a delivery to your local bar these days?

 

[realibrad]

63 LEOs killed with guns versus well over a 1,000 civilians were killed by LEOs with guns and I'd wager a months pay that far more than 63 of those deaths were of unarmed people. I've never actually made the argument that US LEO shouldn't have guns, I have made the argument that they use them way too often and way too quickly.

Maybe don't jump into a conversation without following what is being said.

Cr0nJ0b referenced Scotland where cops don't have guns.

I responded by saying that they have a different less violent culture and that cops their may not need guns, but we do because of the violence against our cops and how ours are even targeted unprovoked which is would be unheard of in many other cultures.

alien42 then responded by saying cop assassination is extremely rare and that I was spreading BS about other countries.

The reason I brought up cop assassination was to show how not having guns would be crazy as we have clear examples of violence unprovoked against cops. That is just crazy talk to think the US could do anything like Scotland as we have a society that not only fights cops, but attacks them unprovoked.

So I ask you, why do you think this would be about anything other than removing guns from cops? That was the whole point about what I was saying and why I brought up cop assassination. Still seems reasonable to me, but I cannot figure out what your point is.

A side note, I read through some of those deaths and while all sad, did you know that most departments don't count it as a "homicide by police" if the person makes it to a hospital and then dies? I've even read that some only count it if you are pronounced dead at the scene meaning if you make it into the ambulance still breathing it is not counted as a homicide by police. They just count those as shot by police whereas with LEO deaths they rightfully count those deaths that are the direct cause of line of duty work.

And if that is true, that is BS. It is a side not as it has nothing to do with my point about taking guns away from cops.

Finally, in your opinion what is the reason we are seeing this uptick in ambush style murder of LEOs?

People when given power tend to abuse it. The very foundation of the US was built around safeguards and accountability to try and prevent those abuses. Far too many cops power trip and abuse their power. This causes resentment from the public when they see unneeded force used against people. This resentment makes them scapegoats for other things that people do not like and that anger gets vented at cops.

There is also a building resentment against groups seen as being in-power.

 

[realibrad]

While social safety nets certainly do help you still can't get past the huge profits to be made in the black market created by our relentless failed war on drugs. When there is that much money to be made people will try and get a piece of the pie. The bootleggers during prohibition were quite violent in protecting their profits as well. Do you hear of many people getting into shootouts while making a delivery to your local bar these days?

Which is why I am for legalizing drugs and taking the money spent on the war and putting into rehab. Do what Portugal did. Milton Friedman put it best.

See, if you look at the drug war from a purely economic point of view, the role of the government is to protect the drug cartel. That’s literally true.

See, if you look at the drug war from a purely economic point of view, the role of the government is to protect the drug cartel. That’s literally true.

 

[Darwin333]

Which is why I am for legalizing drugs and taking the money spent on the war and putting into rehab. Do what Portugal did. Milton Friedman put it best.



See, if you look at the drug war from a purely economic point of view, the role of the government is to protect the drug cartel. That’s literally true.

Well we definitely agree on that point. If we did away with the drug war you would see the violence and homicide rate in our nation plummet overnight. Imho, let people do whatever the hell they want with their bodies. Setup stores where they can buy whatever drug they want and tax it like booze. It would be far safer for the users, especially for people like heroin users, as they would know for a fact what the purity was and wouldn't have to worry about it being cut with fentynal and you almost completely remove the profit from the street drug trade. Not to mention we wouldn't have seen the huge spike in heroin users over the last few years because people would still have had access to far safer pharmaceutical opioids that they were addicted to. The Feds won the war against oxycottin abuse but as a direct result heroin use has more than doubled and heroin ODs have increased by like 5 fold, not to mention that sick people now have a very hard time getting the meds they truly need so another great win in the war on drugs! All of the other crime associated with drug use such as burglary to fund their use we already have laws to handle and are already happening anyway.
BTW, I looked through the list of cops killed by gunfire and did you realize that 13 of those 63 were police dogs shot and killed with 3 of them being shot and killed by friendly fire. I couldn't even begin to imagine what the count of civilians killed by LEO would be if we included dogs in that number.

 

[realibrad]

Well we definitely agree on that point. If we did away with the drug war you would see the violence and homicide rate in our nation plummet overnight. Imho, let people do whatever the hell they want with their bodies. Setup stores where they can buy whatever drug they want and tax it like booze. It would be far safer for the users, especially for people like heroin users, as they would know for a fact what the purity was and wouldn't have to worry about it being cut with fentynal and you almost completely remove the profit from the street drug trade. Not to mention we wouldn't have seen the huge spike in heroin users over the last few years because people would still have had access to far safer pharmaceutical opioids that they were addicted to. The Feds won the war against oxycottin abuse but as a direct result heroin use has more than doubled and heroin ODs have increased by like 5 fold, not to mention that sick people now have a very hard time getting the meds they truly need so another great win in the war on drugs! All of the other crime associated with drug use such as burglary to fund their use we already have laws to handle and are already happening anyway.
BTW, I looked through the list of cops killed by gunfire and did you realize that 13 of those 63 were police dogs shot and killed with 3 of them being shot and killed by friendly fire. I couldn't even begin to imagine what the count of civilians killed by LEO would be if we included dogs in that number.

Okay, so it looks like you thought I was doing something other than defending cops being armed with guns in the US. Is that what happened?

Also, not only would it reduce death and crime in the US directly, but indirectly. Having tens of thousands people killed by cartels has a massive feedback loop on violence in Mexico. That spills over into the US as well. No doubt Mexico would be far better off economically if we ended our drug war and it would greatly improve multiple things.

Immigration.
Crime.
Increased Trade.
More Tacos.

The benefit would be huge.

 

[The Merg]

BTW, I looked through the list of cops killed by gunfire and did you realize that 13 of those 63 were police dogs shot and killed with 3 of them being shot and killed by friendly fire. I couldn't even begin to imagine what the count of civilians killed by LEO would be if we included dogs in that number.

I looked at what you were seeing. The site is deceptive in how it displays the individuals, but it is 63 officers. You can display with and without K9’s being listed and if you list without K9’s it shows 63.

And just as a general comment about the number of deaths by police each year... The last estimate of the number of contacts by police in the U.S. with citizens was 63,900,000, which was in 2014. I would assume it is higher now as it appears to increase every year. If we take a rough estimate of 1,100 as the number killed by police, the odds your contact with the police will end in your death mathematically is 0.0017%. That’s less than 2-thousandths of one percent.

-Merg

 

[JSt0rm]

I looked at what you were seeing. The site is deceptive in how it displays the individuals, but it is 63 officers. You can display with and without K9’s being listed and if you list without K9’s it shows 63.

And just as a general comment about the number of deaths by police each year... The last estimate of the number of contacts by police in the U.S. with citizens was 63,900,000, which was in 2014. I would assume it is higher now as it appears to increase every year. If we take a rough estimate of 1,100 as the number killed by police, the odds your contact with the police will end in your death mathematically is 0.0017%. That’s less than 2-thousandths of one percent.

-Merg

why do we have to estimate? Why are there no statistics?

 

[The Merg]

why do we have to estimate? Why are there no statistics?

I didn’t take the time to look up the numbers, but I know that it is around 1,100 or so.

- Merg

 

[JSt0rm]

I didn’t take the time to look up the numbers, but I know that it is around 1,100 or so.

- Merg

But police don't report thier kills to anyone. So it's really impossible to know the totals.

 

[The Merg]

But police don't report thier kills to anyone. So it's really impossible to know the totals.

Yes and no. Unfortunately, most departments don’t report it, but there is no mandate or requirement for them to do so. Considering how much departments keep track of use of force statistics nowadays, it wouldn’t be difficult if it was required to come up with those numbers. That being said, the Washington Post has what is considered to be a pretty accurate list.

- Merg

 

[alien42]

I looked at what you were seeing. The site is deceptive in how it displays the individuals, but it is 63 officers. You can display with and without K9’s being listed and if you list without K9’s it shows 63.

And just as a general comment about the number of deaths by police each year... The last estimate of the number of contacts by police in the U.S. with citizens was 63,900,000, which was in 2014. I would assume it is higher now as it appears to increase every year. If we take a rough estimate of 1,100 as the number killed by police, the odds your contact with the police will end in your death mathematically is 0.0017%. That’s less than 2-thousandths of one percent.

-Merg

one big problem with your calculation, not all Americans have equal contact with law enforcement. i, for example, rarely have contact with law enforcement, whereas Philando Castile was pulled over 49 times in 13 years. my odds of being shot by the police are far less than his were and no math will show all of the reasons behind that.