More Sex Is Safer Sex

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
An odd way to look at the spread of disease, I'm still trying to get my head around it myself. Thought you would find it interesting.

Cheers.

More Sex Is Safer SexThe economic case for promiscuity.
By Steven E. Landsburg
Posted Saturday, July 6, 1996, at 3:30 AM ET

It's true: AIDS is nature's awful retribution for our tolerance of immoderate and socially irresponsible sexual behavior. The epidemic is the price of our permissive attitudes toward monogamy, chastity, and other forms of sexual conservatism.

You've read elsewhere about the sin of promiscuity. Let me tell you about the sin of self-restraint.

Suppose you walk into a bar and find four potential sex partners. Two are highly promiscuous; the others venture out only once a year. The promiscuous ones are, of course, more likely to be HIV-positive. That gives you a 50-50 chance of finding a relatively safe match.

But suppose all once-a-year revelers could be transformed into twice-a-year revelers. Then, on any given night, you'd run into twice as many of them. Those two promiscuous bar patrons would be outnumbered by four of their more cautious rivals. Your odds of a relatively safe match just went up from 50-50 to four out of six.

That's why increased activity by sexual conservatives can slow down the rate of infection and reduce the prevalence of AIDS. In fact, according to Professor Michael Kremer of MIT's economics department, the spread of AIDS in England could plausibly be retarded if everyone with fewer than about 2.25 partners per year were to take additional partners more frequently. That covers three-quarters of British heterosexuals between the ages of 18 and 45. (Much of this column is inspired by Professor Kremer's research.

If multiple partnerships save lives, then monogamy can be deadly. Imagine a country where almost all women are monogamous, while all men demand two female partners per year. Under those conditions, a few prostitutes end up servicing all the men. Before long, the prostitutes are infected; they pass the disease to the men; and the men bring it home to their monogamous wives. But if each of those monogamous wives was willing to take on one extramarital partner, the market for prostitution would die out, and the virus, unable to spread fast enough to maintain itself, might die out along with it.

Or consider Joan, who attended a party where she ought to have met the charming and healthy Martin. Unfortunately Fate, through its agents at the Centers for Disease Control, intervened. The morning of the party, Martin ran across one of those CDC-sponsored subway ads touting the virtues of abstinence. Chastened, he decided to stay home. In Martin's absence, Joan hooked up with the equally charming but considerably less prudent Maxwell--and Joan got AIDS. Abstinence can be even deadlier than monogamy.

If those subway ads are more effective against the cautious Martins than against the reckless Maxwells, then they are a threat to the hapless Joans. This is especially so when they displace Calvin Klein ads, which might have put Martin in a more socially beneficent mood.

You might object that even if Martin had dallied with Joan, he would only have freed Maxwell to prey on another equally innocent victim. To this there are two replies. First, we don't know that Maxwell would have found another partner: Without Joan, he might have struck out that night. Second, reducing the rate of HIV transmission is in any event not the only social goal worth pursuing: If it were, we'd outlaw sex entirely. What we really want is to minimize the number of infections resulting from any given number of sexual encounters; the flip side of this observation is that it is desirable to maximize the number of (consensual) sexual encounters leading up to any given number of infections. Even if Martin had failed to deny Maxwell a conquest that evening, and thus failed to slow the epidemic, he could at least have made someone happy.

To an economist, it's clear why people with limited sexual pasts choose to supply too little sex in the present: Their services are underpriced. If sexual conservatives could effectively advertise their histories, HIV-conscious suitors would compete to lavish them with attention. But that doesn't happen, because such conservatives are hard to identify. Insufficiently rewarded for relaxing their standards, they relax their standards insufficiently.

So a socially valuable service is under-rewarded and therefore under-supplied. This is a problem we've experienced before. We face it whenever a producer fails to safeguard the environment.

Extrapolating from their usual response to environmental issues, I assume that liberals will want to attack the problem of excessive sexual restraint through coercive regulation. As a devotee of the price system, I'd prefer to encourage good behavior through an appropriate system of subsidies.

The question is: How do we subsidize Martin's sexual awakening without simultaneously subsidizing Maxwell's ongoing predations? Just paying people to have sex won't work--not with Maxwell around to reap the bulk of the rewards. The key is to subsidize something that is used in conjunction with sex and that Martin values more than Maxwell.

Quite plausibly, that something is condoms. Maxwell knows that he is more likely than Martin to be infected already, and hence probably values condoms less than Martin does. Subsidized condoms could be just the ticket for luring Martin out of his shell without stirring Maxwell to a new frenzy of activity.

As it happens, there is another reason to subsidize condoms: Condom use itself is under-rewarded. When you use one, you are protecting both yourself and your future partners, but you are rewarded (with a lower chance of infection) only for protecting yourself. Your future partners don't know about your past condom use and therefore can't reward it with extravagant courtship. That means you fail to capture the benefits you're conferring, and as a result, condoms are underused.

It is often argued that subsidized (or free) condoms have an upside and a downside: The upside is that they reduce the risk from a given encounter, and the downside is that they encourage more encounters. But it's plausible that in reality, that's not an upside and a downside--it's two upsides. Without the subsidies, people don't use enough condoms, and the sort of people who most value condoms don't have enough sex partners.

All these problems--along with the case for subsidies--would vanish if our sexual pasts could somehow be made visible, so that future partners could reward past prudence and thereby provide appropriate incentives. Perhaps technology can ultimately make that solution feasible. (I envision the pornography of the future: "Her skirt slid to the floor and his gaze came to rest on her thigh, where the imbedded monitor read, 'This site has been accessed 314 times.' ") But until then, the best we can do is to make condoms inexpensive--and get rid of those subway ads.
link
 

Rangoric

Senior member
Apr 5, 2006
530
0
71
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Wow. The assumptions made in the analysis are beyond laughable... Was it supposed to be a joke?

Actually, I find it interesting on a statistical level.

The assumptions I just gather are to be cute and show how the statistics play out.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
I'm still trying to get my head around it
:shocked:
For example,

You are diluting the aids rate assuming the number of sexual events is constant. ie. a person has sex with one of two people versus just one. But if you openly advocate promiscuity, the number of sexual acts will increase and the odds will change again.

While it does make sense some cultures that endorse out of marriage relationships, allowing women to do the same will lower disease rate but why should the guy be doing that to start with.

I have a tough time accepting this strategy in areas with high aids rates, i mean...that's just going to infect everyone. It was this mindset that killed so many people before; not recognizing the issue.

I do like the idea of cheap birth control though...this would do a lot of good in any society.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: nonameo
What we need is a drug to supress sexual appetite.
Sex is natural. Ever go to the zoo and see the monkies getting it on? Are they sinful and should it be stopped?
 

Screech

Golden Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,203
7
81
Ironically, in the long run, he is somewhat correct. IIRC, There are already a couple HIV-resistant populations in the world, and increased promiscuity would make these genes spread faster, while the "weaker" genes (ie, everyone else who is not resistant to HIV and gets it) would die out at a faster rate. Obviously, the cure to HIV isn't to simply fsck it out of the gene pool, but it is another interesting topic....
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: nonameo
What we need is a drug to supress sexual appetite.
Sex is natural. Ever go to the zoo and see the monkies getting it on? Are they sinful and should it be stopped?

Sex in and of itself is not sinful. However, deriving any form of pleasure from sex IS sinful, as sex should ONLY be used for procreation, and only then by married men and women who engage in the distasteful yet necessary activity while under the direct supervision and guidance of their priest. Confession, repentance, and prayer are mandatory steps in this process.
 

BigJelly

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2002
1,717
0
0
Instead of the uninfected having more sex...

How about the infected having less sex?
How about practicing safe sex?
How about giving this guy a darwin award , but seriously who's with me :evil:?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: nonameo
What we need is a drug to supress sexual appetite.
Sex is natural. Ever go to the zoo and see the monkies getting it on? Are they sinful and should it be stopped?

I've seen dogs eat their own feces.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
If multiple partnerships save lives, then monogamy can be deadly. Imagine a country where almost all women are monogamous, while all men demand two female partners per year. Under those conditions, a few prostitutes end up servicing all the men. Before long, the prostitutes are infected; they pass the disease to the men; and the men bring it home to their monogamous wives. But if each of those monogamous wives was willing to take on one extramarital partner, the market for prostitution would die out, and the virus, unable to spread fast enough to maintain itself, might die out along with it.
welcome to how aids spreads 101.
 

Trevelyan

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2000
4,077
0
71
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: nonameo
What we need is a drug to supress sexual appetite.
Sex is natural. Ever go to the zoo and see the monkies getting it on? Are they sinful and should it be stopped?

I think we should really not look to the animals for our moral guidance...
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: nonameo
What we need is a drug to supress sexual appetite.
Sex is natural. Ever go to the zoo and see the monkies getting it on? Are they sinful and should it be stopped?

I think we should really not look to the animals for our moral guidance...

Perhaps, although it's worth noting that among all living things on earth, only humans kill for fun or ideology. And I'd dispute that sex is a moral issue at all. It's a physical act that can be quite a bit of fun, like racquetball (and just like racquetball, try not to get hit in the eye). I think one of the silliest things about our culture has been the level of emotion and morality we've attached to something so fundamental to being human.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
I just feel like this guy fails at math. Ok, if all the prudes went out and started having more sex, the rate of HIV infection would indeed go down on a percentage basis relative to amount of coitus achieved. However, the absolute amount of hiv infection would go up. The rate went down because you're diluting the statistical significance of HIV infections with safer prude sex but the absolute amount of sex being had by both prudes and the promiscuous would go up. Hence, everyone being promiscuous would increase the aids rate. Plus, this guy assumes the number of "bad" promiscuous people is a constant but I bet in a promiscuous environment, more promiscous people would be created.
 

dannybin1742

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2002
2,335
0
0
you know, the spead of aids could be slowed if people would just practice safe sex

but hey thats just the obvious
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: nonameo
What we need is a drug to supress sexual appetite.
Sex is natural. Ever go to the zoo and see the monkies getting it on? Are they sinful and should it be stopped?

Sex in and of itself is not sinful. However, deriving any form of pleasure from sex IS sinful, as sex should ONLY be used for procreation, and only then by married men and women who engage in the distasteful yet necessary activity while under the direct supervision and guidance of their priest. Confession, repentance, and prayer are mandatory steps in this process.

Pleasure is an unescapable part of sex
 

nonameo

Diamond Member
Mar 13, 2006
5,902
2
76
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: nonameo
What we need is a drug to supress sexual appetite.
Sex is natural. Ever go to the zoo and see the monkies getting it on? Are they sinful and should it be stopped?

Sex in and of itself is not sinful. However, deriving any form of pleasure from sex IS sinful, as sex should ONLY be used for procreation, and only then by married men and women who engage in the distasteful yet necessary activity while under the direct supervision and guidance of their priest. Confession, repentance, and prayer are mandatory steps in this process.



For me, it has nothing to do with morals. I find sexual urges distracting and irritating. Masturbation is unfulfilling. I don't want to have sex, and I don't like feeling the urge to have sex.

I mean really, that's the nice thing about being human, right? We're smart enough to have the ability to do unnatural things.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: nonameo
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: nonameo
What we need is a drug to supress sexual appetite.
Sex is natural. Ever go to the zoo and see the monkies getting it on? Are they sinful and should it be stopped?

Sex in and of itself is not sinful. However, deriving any form of pleasure from sex IS sinful, as sex should ONLY be used for procreation, and only then by married men and women who engage in the distasteful yet necessary activity while under the direct supervision and guidance of their priest. Confession, repentance, and prayer are mandatory steps in this process.



For me, it has nothing to do with morals. I find sexual urges distracting and irritating. Masturbation is unfulfilling. I don't want to have sex, and I don't like feeling the urge to have sex.

I mean really, that's the nice thing about being human, right? We're smart enough to have the ability to do unnatural things.

please refrain from applying your abnormality to the general population. While your at it, you might want some counseling.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Statistically it makes sense. By diluting the pool of candidates with non-infected people you have a better chance of picking one of them. However, once this starts the number of infected people would rise and you would eventually end up in the same place you started.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: nonameo
What we need is a drug to supress sexual appetite.
Sex is natural. Ever go to the zoo and see the monkies getting it on? Are they sinful and should it be stopped?

I think we should really not look to the animals for our moral guidance...

Perhaps, although it's worth noting that among all living things on earth, only humans kill for fun or ideology.

And among all living things on earth, we are the only beings willing to risk our lives for others, even others we don't even know.

And I'd dispute that sex is a moral issue at all. It's a physical act that can be quite a bit of fun, like racquetball (and just like racquetball, try not to get hit in the eye). I think one of the silliest things about our culture has been the level of emotion and morality we've attached to something so fundamental to being human.

I hope you do know that sex is usually much better when it is filled with emotions and feelings.

But I do agree that our society has wrongful and incorrect notions of sex in regards to morality.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Rangoric
Actually, I find it interesting on a statistical level.

The assumptions I just gather are to be cute and show how the statistics play out.
I found it completely absurd on a statistical level, and I'm a huge dork, so I wrote a Monte Carlo simulation in MATLAB to test the theory. It took me like five minutes (like I said, I'm a huge dork) to write it and a little longer to test it. First, I need to define the terms of the simulation:
100,000 men - 0% initially infected
100,000 women - 50% initially infected
A man hooks up 0.5*NumWomen/NumMen (guy's more likely to hook up if the ratio is in his favor)
If the guy hooks up with an HIV+ woman, there is a 5% chance of him catching the disease (just made that up, don't know what it really is, but it also doesn't matter for qualitative purposes).
Continued the simulation for 50 nights (maybe 1 year, one night per weekend) at the bar with the same men and women in the mix each time, so after the first night, the HIV+ men pass to HIV- women 5% of the time when sexual contact is achieved.

Now that the messy bits are out of the way:
Infected men: 50,030
Infected women: 63,946

Keeping everything the same except the number of uninfected women (which was raised to 500,000, bringing the total number of women to 550,000) and repeating yields:
Infected men: 23,387
Infected women: 74,259

Now the interesting bit: what happens if we look at this over a longer period of time, say 500 cycles?

First case, where 50% of the women are initially infected:
Infected men: 99,998
Infected women: 100,000

Second case, where 500,000 uninfected women are thrown in initially with 50,000 infected:
Infected men: 100,000
Infected women: 536,947

So, what's the moral of the story? The guy is right if you're extremely myopic. Otherwise, you'd realize that lots and lots of people will lose in the long run if this approach were pursued. This doesn't even count the possibility of these women going home to their supposedly monogamous partners afterwards and giving them the HIV.

PS - PM me if you want to see the MATLAB code... It's a bit long to paste here.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Statistically it makes sense. By diluting the pool of candidates with non-infected people you have a better chance of picking one of them. However, once this starts the number of infected people would rise and you would eventually end up in the same place you started.

It's a bad argument, because it doesn't reduce the number of 'dangerous' encounters, regardless of the little 'maxwell might not get laid tonight' spin that was put on things.

More promiscuity means more infections, and more unwanted pregnancies. What actually helps is using 'safer sex' practices, regardless of the number of encounters.
 

SuperFungus

Member
Aug 23, 2006
141
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: nonameo
What we need is a drug to supress sexual appetite.
Sex is natural. Ever go to the zoo and see the monkies getting it on? Are they sinful and should it be stopped?

I think we should really not look to the animals for our moral guidance...

Perhaps, although it's worth noting that among all living things on earth, only humans kill for fun or ideology.

I'm pretty sure chimps kill/'murder' other chimps for no apparent reason. They don't eat the kill or anything. Maybe it was a different species of monkey altogether, i can't really remember.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
Originally posted by: SuperFungus
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Perhaps, although it's worth noting that among all living things on earth, only humans kill for fun or ideology.

I'm pretty sure chimps kill/'murder' other chimps for no apparent reason. They don't eat the kill or anything. Maybe it was a different species of monkey altogether, i can't really remember.
The idea that we're the only species that kills for fun is an old bromide. Ever see a cat with a mouse? 100% of cats like to play with their kills. Humans are much more humane in comparison. Also, monkeys will in fact kill each other to gain status in a tribe and will start wars with other tribes. As far as killing for ideology goes, we are the only animals to do that but that's just because we're the only animals smart enough to even hold ideologies.

 
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