News Mosque shooting in Christchurch, New Zealand - At least 49 dead

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AlanWade

Member
Mar 4, 2019
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"A man who claimed responsibility for the shootings published a 74-page anti-immigrant manifesto in which he explained who he was and his reasoning for his actions. " How about a 1-page manifesto that says Thou Shall Not Kill........................................................
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
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Why? As I said, all the bad things that Trump has done were around before him. That is true in the US as well as around the world. So why would it be incorrect to say that Trump is a symptom far more than the cause of the problem?

Leadership matters. What the deplorables lacked was someone to believe in. And now they have it in Trump. He gives them strength.
 
Jan 25, 2011
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Did Justice Democrats approve that or is she off script again?
Tell me where she is wrong here.

“At 1st I thought of saying, 'Imagine being told your house of faith isn’t safe anymore.' But I couldn’t say ‘imagine,’” the lawmaker wrote, citing the deadly shootings at a Charleston, S.C., church, a Pittsburgh synagogue and a Sutherland Springs, Texas, church.

“What good are your thoughts & prayers when they don’t even keep the pews safe?” She added.

Ocasio-Cortez noted that “thoughts and prayers” is a reference to the NRA phrase she says is “used to deflect conversation away from policy change during tragedies.”

The progressive congresswoman called on communities to “come together, fight for each other & stand up for neighbors.”

“Isolation, dehumanizing stereotypes, hysterical conspiracy theories & hatred ultimately lead to the anarchy of violence,” she wrote on Twitter. “We cannot stand for it.”
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
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Leadership matters. What the deplorables lacked was someone to believe in. And now they have it in Trump. He gives them strength.

Then why were the deplorables around and active pre Trump around the world Jhhnn?

He gives them strength, but, he is not the sole influence. Nor is he the majority.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,283
8,201
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Then why were the deplorables around and active pre Trump around the world Jhhnn?

He gives them strength, but, he is not the sole influence. Nor is he the majority.

He's a bloody _huge_ influence however. He's the current most-visible face of the trend, and the one in charge of a super-power.
 
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Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
"The meek will never inherit the earth, as long as it is inhabited by wolves.." – Mack Bolan

That's why I said "stand against evil," which we must do when innocents are being slaughtered. I applaud those who tried to fight back. I am reminded of the old story of sheep, wolves and sheepdogs. Glad you agree.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,283
8,201
136
Its not a leap of faith as we have seen it work. There are far more examples of catastrophic results from people not talking and trying to work things out.

Not really, no. The greatest catastrophe would be the rise of the Nazis and the Holocaust. Maybe Stalin and Mao as well. In the former, talking didn't work, only violence worked in the end. In the case of Stalin - look what happened to the Mensheviks.

I'm really not arguing for violence _now_, or saying it is always the best answer, merely expressing skepticism about a general principle of non-violence. It had _some_ success against the British in India, for example (but even there there was a great deal of violent resistance that has been underplayed), but I don't believe it would have worked even to that degree had the colonisers been the Nazis. Likewise it only worked so far with MLK and civil rights.

I just don't think one can make grand statements about the issue that are valid in all situations.

And seeking 'an end to all violence' seems a bit over-ambtious. I'm just talking about avoiding fascism or war and mass deaths.
 
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Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,195
3,699
136
No, is not. It is a complete conspiracy. White people are not being demonized. All that is happening is that the shitty things they do are being pointed out. They are actually doing the shitty things.

There's a special. Buy one, get one free.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
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Again, people elected Obama and then sat back. If people focus too much on the symbol they miss the wider issue. So, if people focus on Trump and then he goes, I believe they will do the same and think they have struck a major blow. Removing Trump is a first step, but, the way people talk is as if its the biggest step and its clearly not.

So, that is why I don't tell people to not work on removing Trump. What I do is to make sure that people realize that the issue is bigger than Trump so that when he is gone people don't stop working.

Yet you have no solutions of your own. Which is why I asked. Getting rid of Trump is something we can actually do.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
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He's a bloody _huge_ influence however. He's the current most-visible face of the trend, and the one in charge of a super-power.

He is big for sure. But again, he is not the majority, nor is he the cause of things that people often like to attribute to him.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
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The video is disgusting BTW. Please take no part in sharing it via torrent or otherwise. Social media platforms were slow to react to this. It shouldn't even be out there.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
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Then why were the deplorables around and active pre Trump around the world Jhhnn?

He gives them strength, but, he is not the sole influence. Nor is he the majority.

This is true. Islamophobia has been a cornerstone of American politics and especially foreign policy since the end of the cold war. Muslims and migrants were very deliberately vilified to replace the Soviets as our "antagonists".

Trump is much better understood as a symptom of these attitudes rather than the cause.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Not really, no. The greatest catastrophe would be the rise of the Nazis and the Holocaust. Maybe Stalin and Mao as well. In the former, talking didn't work, only violence worked in the end. In the case of Stalin - look what happened to the Mensheviks.

I'm really not arguing for violence _now_, or saying it is always the best answer, merely expressing skepticism about a general principle of non-violence. It had _some_ success against the British in India, for example (but even there there was a great deal of violent resistance that has been underplayed), but I don't believe it would have worked even to that degree had the colonisers been the Nazis. Likewise it only worked so far with MLK and civil rights.

I just don't think one can make grand statements about the issue that are valid in all situations.

And seeking 'an end to all violence' seems a bit over-ambtious. I'm just talking about avoiding fascism or war and mass deaths.

All of your examples requited massive violence to destabilize their situations. Nazi Germany would likely not have happened if WWI did not happen. Same with China and Russia.

I'm also not saying violence is never the answer. Clearly violence was needed to stop the Nazis once they started.

But, one tool gives you the ability to avoid violence, while the other almost always leads to it.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
This is true. Islamophobia has been a cornerstone of American politics and especially foreign policy since the end of the cold war. Muslims and migrants were very deliberately vilified to replace the Soviets as our "antagonists".

Trump is much better understood as a symptom of these attitudes rather than the cause.

I disagree. I'm not saying that Islamophobia is not part of US politics. I think that other groups came before Muslims after the cold war.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
I understand suicide very well. It's a supreme act of self-control. I can relate to people who want to give God, or fate, or whatever, the middle-finger.

I can't relate at all to people who put such emphasis on such trivial things as race.
Dude, you need to go fishing and relax.
 
Nov 29, 2006
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Because I asked, and you provided none. So far all you've said is that Trump is not the problem. That isn't a solution.

Trump seems like a good first solution to me. Keep taking out the figure heads/spoke person/president until there are none, or they crawl back in their holes and stay there where they belong. One should never tolerate intolerance. Sometimes you have to take the gloves off and get dirty.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,572
7,823
136
It seems that Lauren Southern deleted her "The Great Replacement" video (Muslims are replacing Whites in the west, White-genocide, etc.) as the murderer's alleged manifesto used the theory as its title...
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Like I said, it's a bad thing for white supremacists or other racist trash, whose entire identity is built based upon demonizing people based on skin color. They feel horribly persecuted because they can't speak "The Truth" about the "inferiority" of other races. Which is why they claim to be victims of racism even when it's other whites condemning their racism.


Not every white person is a white supremacist. It has become culturally acceptable to demonize people based on skin color, you can’t twist it to say oh we just meant white supremacists. It has become culturally acceptable
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Because I asked, and you provided none. So far all you've said is that Trump is not the problem. That isn't a solution.

Because it seemed like you thought my solution was to only point out that Trump is not the only problem. Thus the solutions I gave were in that context.

Here are some.

Challenge people to be more civil.
Devalue emotions vs data and objective reality in conversations.
Promote people engaging bad ideas rather than trying to hide them.
Listen and challenge ideas rather than the character of the person.
Promote people talking face to face rather than through virtual channels.

Those are some things for discussions.

Better/more accessible healthcare.
Gun regulation.
School to provide skills rather than be a channel for getting people to college.

Those are some things that would help beyond discussions.
 
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