Most affordable way to securely store 5+ TB?

[Computers_Plus]

I would not store my data on line even for free no how no way keep your backups local

 

[Computers_Plus]

You can add a 2Tb drive to the G5 but I think you may be better off turning one of the towers you have into backup/file server

 

[SickBeast]

OP if you can live with 4TB, then you could simply run 4x2TB drives in RAID-5.

Otherwise you could use 3TB drives but it would be much more costly.

You have a number of options in terms of how you want to set it up, including a NAS or an ESATA or USB3 enclosure of some kind.

 

[Computers_Plus]

Yep if you want to redo the G5 you could set it up with 2x 2TB

 

[RebateMonger]

I would not store my data on line even for free no how no way keep your backups local

Why not?

Automated online backups solve the problem of people not making backups when they should and also solve the problem of fire/theft/burglary. Of course, you have to trust the company you are sending the data to. And, like any backups, you need to periodically test them backups to ensure that you are backing up what you need to back up and that the backups are retreivable. But you need to do this with any backup system. Test it every month or two to be sure.

In this case, the data is not "valuable" to anybody but the owner. So online backups would be a "safe" solution.

EXCEPT that there's no way to upload 5 TB of data. And the "unlimited" services would probably not go along with it, anyway.

Since commerical online backups are out of the question, you still need a way to keep some offsite backups. You could do it by keeping backup disks at a neighbor's or safety deposit box and periodically updating them. Or you can set up a remote server that periodically synchronizes changed files over the Internet. You intially directly hook the server onto your local network and transfer the files. Then you'll only need to send CHANGES across the Internet. Much faster than trying to send 5 TB of data over the Internet.

 

[RebateMonger]

I'm rather concerned/ curious about what CurseTheSky said about 2 TB drives being more failure-prone. Anyone have numbers on this? % increase in fails, % difference in lifespan, etc.?

There aren't any good long-term numbers. Most of us who follow such things would agree that an early disk failure is probably more likely with 1.5 TB or 2 TB disks than with 1 TB disks. But it'll also depend on the brand and model of the disks.

As noted by others, ALL hard drives WILL fail at some point. Often without warning. That's why you keep backups and test those backups periodically.

 

[Computers_Plus]

to each his own but to me storing your data on line is foolish.

 

[taltamir]

Online storage is out of your price range anyways... 2500$/Month to store 5TB...

@Sickbeast: 4x2TB drives in RAID-5 = 6TB storage, not 4TB. two RAID1 arrays, or a RAID10 array would give you 4GB out of 4x2TB.

@OP: store backup's at a friend or family member's house. then in case of house fire / theft the friend has it.
With FIOS you can even do the backups via the internet. Without it you just have to lug one server over to do backups now and then.

Since the OP has two old towers that are perfect for the job, he just needs the drives.

 

[doodler85]

I'm going to have to check with my friend to see if he has the space to accommodate two towers... I could always use one tower hooked up to the network that does nightly backups to a smaller box like Computers_Plus mentioned long ago, right? See any major drawbacks with that idea? If there was some emergency he could always grab the small box and run out with it under his arm in a very dramatic fashion (which would probably work better than my 60 lb CoolerMaster case, I imagine).

I'm interested in the idea of converting my old tower into a server (FreeBSD with NFS? Is that the default filesystem?)... does anyone happen to have a guide for morons who have never done this before? Could you guys also point me to some literature (or simple advice) regarding security for a networked device containing everything like this?

Thanks again for all of the feedback, everyone! I never guessed how impressively large this conversation would become

 

[Computers_Plus]

doodler85 what you could do is use removable hard drive bays so the drives could be removed and stored in a firesafe easily I did that for a client recently worked out real nice.

 

[taltamir]

doodler85 what you could do is use removable hard drive bays so the drives could be removed and stored in a firesafe easily I did that for a client recently worked out real nice.

firesafes don't work for harddrives. They are meant to protect paper documents, which will not catch on fire if the safe heats up to 300 degrees internal temperature. Your data, on the other hand, will be ruined.

Also, where would he put those removable drive bays? its not going to fit in his laptop and I doubt the G5 will work for it.
Besides which, removable drive bays are very expensive, I know, I looked into them for my own backups. It will just cost more than using the existing towers + internal drives... it is an option if he doesn't mind the extra cost. Also costing more then internals (but not as much as removables) are external drives, again, its just a matter of costing more, requiring a big ugly USB splitter, and the dramatic reduction in lifespan on externals (from what I have observed... inadequate cooling, crappy PSU, and lots of vibrations add up badly). an external drive just costs about 20$ more per drive than an internal one. But all of them are doable if thats what he wants.

I'm going to have to check with my friend to see if he has the space to accommodate two towers... I could always use one tower hooked up to the network that does nightly backups to a smaller box like Computers_Plus mentioned long ago, right? See any major drawbacks with that idea? If there was some emergency he could always grab the small box and run out with it under his arm in a very dramatic fashion (which would probably work better than my 60 lb CoolerMaster case, I imagine).

Only issue with that box is that it costs more money then "an old computer i have lying around"... that and it cannot run its own OS so no ZFS, will have to use whatever OS his computer has, its just a box for drives, so he will be plugging this to his G5 and have the G5 format it and control it as if they are regular drives...
I see no problem with it, heck, you could forgo the server and just have 2 such boxes... one as main storage and one as backup. Both can be plugged into the G5.

You could even leave the backup one at a friend / family member and only update it monthly. That way in case of theft you don't lose it. (burglars will take any electronics)

This certainly saves you having to learn how to manage a FreeBSD or Solaris/Illumos server.
I don't know about sources for info about FreeBSD, but excellent solaris info can be found here:
http://www.genunix.org/
You would want CIFS sharing for windows... but he is using a mac so I don't remember what it is that he needs instead. I assume illumos is the same since its basically a different distro of osol.but I haven't gotten around to it, yet.
It does have a learning curve, so really, only bother with it if you want the benefits of ZFS and am willing to put the effort for them.
If not, either use said box, or for a server, use FreeNAS (which is REALLY simple to use and has its own documentation)

 

[Computers_Plus]

taltamir I have already agreed that him using one of the towers he has is his best bet he was kinda late in the thread with that info but I am just giving him options as for the firesafe they do make firesafes for hard drives plus the last removable bays I bought got a real good deal on at the egg for like $25 each so just chill.

 

[doodler85]

I see no problem with it, heck, you could forgo the server and just have 2 such boxes... one as main storage and one as backup. Both can be plugged into the G5.

So I really hate to be a pest but I still haven't got an answer to my ESATA size restrictions question so I have to ask it again Is there such thing as a size limit to ESATA enclosures, and does that limit have anything to do with the computer connected to it? That G5's an older box and it'll need an ESATA expansion card so I don't know much about how that changes capabilities in any way.

Building a server does sound like a fun project though... but you do make a point with the twin boxes atop his G5. I bet he'd be more keen on that idea if all the options were presented to him (and issues were not raised from my question above).

Oh, and my name's David. Being called doodler85 a half dozen times started to feel silly

 

[Computers_Plus]

it states about that case:

Motherboard's SATA port MUST support Port Multiplier in order for your computer to recognize multiple hard drive if the unit is connectd via eSATA.

I would not even mess around with that just use the USB connection

 

[CurseTheSky]

it states about that case:

Motherboard's SATA port MUST support Port Multiplier in order for your computer to recognize multiple hard drive if the unit is connectd via eSATA.

I would not even mess around with that just use the USB connection

A USB connection for multiple GB of data per session? Maybe if they want to transfer something over night, but DEFINITELY not for quick storage. You're looking at 25-40 MB/s tops. Why are we talking about USB anyway? External storage drives are a very poor solution for this guy's needs. They're prone to failure (trust me, one will get dropped or vibrate off a table eventually), can overheat, and often aren't fed clean power like an internal drive with a good PSU is.

One thing that I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned - how many storage ports do those two towers have? An Athlon 3000+ (939 or 754?) and Pentium 4 Northwood / Prescott system probably have primarily IDE slots with perhaps 2-4 SATA 150 ports. If either has PCI-Express slots, you can look into a SATA expansion card, but if you're limited to PCI (and AGP, which won't help here) slots only, you'll be hitting a HUGE bottleneck, much like USB.

How much cash does this guy have to throw at the storage problem? If we're talking $1000 or something, I'm sure we can cook up a good solution. If he can't afford to throw around more than $200-300, he's either going to have to sacrifice reliability (redundancy) or convenience.

 

[doodler85]

One thing that I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned - how many storage ports do those two towers have? An Athlon 3000+ (939 or 754?) and Pentium 4 Northwood / Prescott system probably have primarily IDE slots with perhaps 2-4 SATA 150 ports. If either has PCI-Express slots, you can look into a SATA expansion card, but if you're limited to PCI (and AGP, which won't help here) slots only, you'll be hitting a HUGE bottleneck, much like USB.

Oh man... good point. I just opened them up... and...

We have 1 primitive looking SATA 1 connector and another SATA 2 on the Athlon 3000+, and nothing on the P4. Unless it's hidden somewhere. So there goes that cost-saving strategy.

I'll ask about money tomorrow... I don't think he'll be able to quote too much. Did you look at that 4 slot solution? Same no-no to it?

 

[CurseTheSky]

I skimmed through most of the thread, but haven't had time to look into everything. I mainly want to correct some of the bad information that has been going around (like taltamir has been doing).

The moral of the story is, there's no good, CHEAP way to go about this. He's going to want primary storage and AT LEAST one backup. Try to get us as much information as you can, such as how much of the data is completely irreplaceable, and how much can be lived without. If he absolutely cannot lose a single photo of the 5 TB of data, it's going to be costly. If he needs to store 5 TB worth of photos, but his career wouldn't end if he lost 4 TB of it (only needs 1 TB for recent clients / portfolios, for example), it'll be much easier to come up with a relatively cheap solution.

For example, let's figure you can build the primary 5 TB storage (including a new processor, motherboard, memory, and power supply) for around $500-600, including some form of built-in redundancy. If he only needs about 1 TB of that 5 TB to save his career in the case of catastrophic failure (house catches fire, etc.), he can cheaply back it up to two separate 1 TB external / hot-swap drives, and store them elsewhere. That gives you a good primary storage mechanism, plus two backups in case of failure.

 

[doodler85]

Interesting idea with the partially redundant backup... he does have about 3 TB of external drives right now, perhaps the solution would be to have two 2 TB drives mirror each other and a third do nightly backups on the externals. Seems kinda ghetto but those externals do exist and it'd be like $150 in savings. More drives could be phased in as money recuperates, after all.

I'll bring all this stuff up with him tomorrow. I'm not sure what he envisioned his budget would be. My first reaction to his 5 TB request was the same as you guys'... I think he's being a pack rat, personally, but it's not my money

 

[taltamir]

So I really hate to be a pest but I still haven't got an answer to my ESATA size restrictions question so I have to ask it again Is there such thing as a size limit to ESATA enclosures, and does that limit have anything to do with the computer connected to it? That G5's an older box and it'll need an ESATA expansion card so I don't know much about how that changes capabilities in any way.

I missed that bit... basically, use USB... or buy an eSATA expansion card that specifically supports port multiplier.

I have a question. What does he currently use to store the 5TB? its not like the data will materialize in a day. If he INTENDS to create them over the next 2 years... well, he can start small and upgrade storage as needed.
If he already has it, well, he just needs a backup as he already owns the storage.

 

[Computers_Plus]

The whole point of this thread was to find a storage solution that was not a bank breaker yes there are much better faster ways to do this I think we all agree on that but 5TB of storage with backups does not come cheap so please keep that in mind at this point I think we have given many choices more info will be required to really go any further.

 

[tweakboy]

You have no back up still, if your HD fails,, those pics are history.

External drives you can turn off and put them in a safe for crying out loud. And I dont need to be quoted also.. thank you..gg and always gb

 

[taltamir]

You have no back up still, if your HD fails,, those pics are history.

huh? all of us suggested having a backup, aka, get 12TB worth of 2TB drives to store the 5TB he has twice.

External drives you can turn off and put them in a safe for crying out loud. And I dont need to be quoted also.. thank you..gg and always gb

what does it help if you put them in a safe? Also, you still need to backup those external drives

 

[doodler85]

I missed that bit... basically, use USB... or buy an eSATA expansion card that specifically supports port multiplier.

Have you used any of these (or heard anything about them)?
http://www.addonics.com/products/Controller_Desktop/

If not, any recommendations for an old G5?

I have a question. What does he currently use to store the 5TB? its not like the data will materialize in a day. If he INTENDS to create them over the next 2 years... well, he can start small and upgrade storage as needed. If he already has it, well, he just needs a backup as he already owns the storage.

I believe he has about 3 TB of data... so we could realistically start with two 2 TB drives. I'm talking to him right now and he doesn't have money to burn on a server quite yet... it seems to make sense to go for a simpler solution for the time being. i.e the box on top of his G5 with secondary back-ups on his current external drives.

I am really curious about building a home server though. Are there any good threads set up right now for the best price/value for home server hardware?

Thanks again everyone. Even if we don't get the fanciest, most ideal thing, it's been incredibly helpful.

 

[RebateMonger]

We have 1 primitive looking SATA 1 connector and another SATA 2 on the Athlon 3000+, and nothing on the P4. Unless it's hidden somewhere. So there goes that cost-saving strategy.

A $30 PCI SATA disk controller http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-020-_-Product should work fine to control four 2 TB SATA disks. I've turned a couple of P4 computers with only IDE ports into Windows Home Servers using 1 TB Hitachi SATA disks and PCI disk controllers.

 

[taltamir]

he has 3TB, but where? it has to reside on some storage media at the moment. If it is on harddrives on his current computers, well, that is fine. Just keep those and get a backup.
So, how many drives he currently has it on? what size are they?

It could very well be that his current storage is adequate and all he needs is a backup scheme to go along with it.
I wouldn't throw money away on more storage than he needs, as a rule it only gets cheaper and sizes get larger over time. the best way to go about it is to upgrade storage the day he actually runs out of space.
If he is running out right now, then switching to 2x2TB drives right now and selling his current storage on ebay (after a secure erase) will be just the ticket. Then he can always get more later.

As far as blowing money on a server, if you have an old system that you aren't using then a server is free. you just need to install a free and open source operating system on said old machine and viola, its a server. If you mean having a server with RAID1 and ZFS to protect against data corruption... well, thats gravy, but if money is tight you can just have it store regular non raided drives.
My own fileserver is just that, my old gaming PC turned into a fileserver, cost me nothing.

However, if you don't have an old PC lying around you can install a server OS on, and you are only planning on getting 2 drives then that special tower (plug via USB) or several external enclosures are the way to go.

Basically its based on price. the price is 100$ per 2TB drive, you need to determine how many of those you actually need. Then you need to somehow hook them up, your options for hookup are:
1. individual external enclosures: 15$ each. (and lots of cables), holds 1 drive each, must be plugged to his current computer (and if you want them all plugged, need a USB splitter)
2. that box that can hold 4 drives: 100$, much neater solution than 4 separate enclosures. must be plugged to his current computer
3. an old PC, install OS, share via network: Price varies from free to expensive depending on what you have and what you are trying to do with it. Doesn't need to be in the same room as his current computer (so it can be hidden in an out of the way place, just make sure its not too hot / and has ventilation).

Depending on how many drives he gets, and his aesthetic taste, choose one of the above.