Somebody posted a few websites that track MMO numbers.
Anybody remember?
Looks to be pretty outdated but these were popular for a while:
http://mmodata.blogspot.com/
I went back to the MMO that I quit playing the fastest since it's free now (TERA) and I ended up playing 1 day before I quit again. It's not a bad game now that it's free but it's just too grindy, the community still sucks (daily arguments about pedos), and it's more of the same.
Suppose I can get back into GW2 but I actually miss "the trinity".
I disagree with most of what you have said.
1. The instance grinding is not the challenge anyone that I know of is looking for. Instances with low group size limits and lockouts inhibit fostering guilds and long-term stability.
2. Seamless worlds where just venturing out is dangerous is the challenge that many seem to be looking for. Fighting over an open world dungeon or loot spot is engaging.
3. I do not know of anyone who enjoyed the old school MMOs who consider any of these ultra themepark MMOs as advanced, seems more like a bad evolution from the roots of a MMO into a series of portals that take you to the dungeon or pvp zone(s).
I do believe that the new-nis of those old school MMOs was a part of the thrill and nostalgia, but I believe the bigger portion of us old-timers is the virtual world with real challenge via risk Vs reward. There is no risk in any of these themepark games. No persistent housing or other valuable objects that can be destroyed, no real death penalty to speak of, no risk for anything. Leveling up takes a matter of a couple weeks and embarrassingly poor crafting systems that are next to worthless.
There is room for older style MMOs. A MMO doesn't need to have a million+ players as long as it's profitable and the developer/publisher are satisfied. I believe sandbox games hold much higher player retention than themeparks. WoW is an anomoly and it wasn't always so easy, when it's population exploded it was rather a difficult game. I don't think we'll see a proper game that brings back that nostalgia unless it's an Indie developer or SOE throwing up a miracle with EQ Next.
I think the point is a lot of people want a new version of the old MMO's, i mean you like games right, pong is still there.
Just saying.
A lot can mean different things. Back when EQ came out it had "a lot" of subscribers 100k, then it hit 200k that was huge for the time.
A lot does not have to mean 13 million people, but people do wish for the yester years. Most know it will never happen, its not cost effective to produce something to what is now a niche crowd.
I don't have the time to play a true EQ like MMO like i did when i was younger, days of camping stuff for over 2 RL days, being the first 50 on my server, and being in the top raid guild on the server for the first 3 years. Was a great feeling at the time, getting the first Cloak of Flames drop, strangely is a event that i will remember for a long time no matter how much "sucess" i have in real life. The amount of work, and teamwork it took to be sucessful and in the top tier was pretty crazy back then, i still have friends from back then i still talk to a lot now.
Incorrect on the guild and long term stability. What other real challenge is there then? It is a MMO (see the first M) in which challenges will require at least multiple people. If fighting over an open world is engaging that many are looking for, then why do those games seem to do poorly now? Also exploring is not "a challenge", it is just a "movement grind" because you will be gated based on the difficulty of the monsters until you level up to be able to go to that area without being killed so easily. So all you did was take a nopen world, and gated it via difficult monsters instead of instances. Same 'problem' different way it was created.
I enjoyed the old school MMOs and I would call these advanced... so would anyone unbiased about when judging an MMO. Look at all the additions that have been added. These additions mean if new MMOs don't add something similar they will fall behind (because it is what the player base wants). Rift was hurting badly until they added a looking for dungeon option. Once something is very liked and successful, it becomes the "norm" in game genres. And that means all these changes to the genre, that have been well likd means the game is more advanced, as in many more changes from the previous MMO that were good.
There is risk vs reward. We all risk the most expensive thing in our lives playing the challenges. That is time. The time we play, playing the game. Can we get accomplished what we want in time? or will we spend too much time? Also, risk - reward, isn't very useful in MMOs anymore where losing something because of reason X, that took months to get, would mean an instant quit from that person. This is the new generation of MMOs. THis is how the businesses see the most success, and how the majority of players like it. This is the direction it is going. You do not have to like it, but it is what it is.
I cannot comment on how successful sandbox vs theme park MMOs are, but I have only played 1 ever MMO that was actually sandbox like. (GW2) Every other MMO I have played was gated. Either monsters were too high level for me to do anything about going that way, instances were too high level req, or I was not in a large enough group to do said issue. (MMOs I have played - EQ, EQ2, WoW, AC, AC2, Rift, Swtor, GW, GW2, One of those super hero ones.) EQ isn't sandbox. AC isn't sandbox. You were limited in movement by monster levels. Unlike a real sandbox like Elder scrolls, in which wherever you go, monsters and the environment more or less scale with your level. And thus you can go anywhere you want, and have a similar challenge, and not limited to going somewhere because of level. (However, in an MMO setting, this removes the feeling psycologically people enjoy when getting stronger, if the fights just stay challenging)
Also, how much it costs to make and run an MMO today, you better hope they can get almost at least 1 million subs, so they don't lose money on these investments. And to be fair your old MMOs are still there. They are what you want right? EQ and AC are still active. Go play them. Its not like they have gone deactivated.
DDO- good with a steady group
We are different kinds of players. Your definitions are a little off though. GW2 is definitely not a sandbox or even close. Our definitions on many things and opinions on design are different.
Couple things I would say though:
1. It's not fair to say an old school sandboxy games aren't made because they are unsuccessful. There hasn't been one made since 2004 that isn't full loot pvp. They haven't been made because all AAA studios are looking to steal a portion of the WoW playerbase, and they believe that emulating that game in a different setting will work.
2. Can't go back and play those old MMOs, it's just not the same now. Those players are mostly max level so leveling up would be a solo affair, and even at max levels it would be hard to find a guild/group.
3. It's going to take SOE taking a chance to make an older style MMO (which they're hinting at) or an Indie studio to make one. It doesn't have to take many millions of dollars to make a MMO. It has taken 100+ million to make a MMO recently, but it's just unnecessary. For a sanboxy MMO there doesn't need to be voice acting, doesn't need to have graphics better than anything out there, doesn't need a tv marketing blitz, doesn't need a lot of things that these themepark MMOs do.
Bottom line, I just want a game made for gamers like me. We're out here waiting and waiting.
#1) I never said they were not successful, I am saying it is like wanting to use an abacus, because you felt like that was the better way to go, instead of a small calculator. They were fun and great when they were the only choices, but once more choices that were more appealing to the masses showed up, they started using that. That then becomes the genre norm, and going backward 9 times outta 10 is a dumb business decision.
#2) Sure you could, but its not what you want. You want a game like that which is popualr enough for you to enjoy it. Which is what I am saying probably will not happen, because that is not the popular way of playing MMOs anymore.
Yes and I want a game made for gamers like me too. However a game that would totally lose me, wouldn't be highly popular. Thus I have to comprimise and enjoy games that are close to it.
I am willing to bet, even if SoE was to attempt an older style MMO, they will still have some of the newer tools involved. And it takes a lot of computation power to do a sandbox non instanced world for mutliple people to play on effectively. So it doesn't need voice acting and such to be expensive.
Which brings me to your #3 which I do not think you understand. My argument is never that it wouldnt be cool for every choice of MMO be made for every gamer to find their favorite, like older MMOs remade. However it has been shown statistically that the WoW/Rift/(recently) GW2 style is the popular and smart decision style to go with, because if the older MMOs were the more popular choices to go, they would still have plenty more subs/players than they do now. And businesses need to target the largest audience available, or the top people of the corporate will say no thank you. (and indie developers normally do not have the funds and process/running power for a MMO size of a game)
There is no processor computation issue with a sandbox MMO or an Indie developer. They use less textures and the Hero Engine is a cheap license. Cost does not need to be many millions of dollars. Non instanced worlds are still separate zones, just no loading screens once you get towards the borders of those stitched together areas.
I don't get what your hangup with the realization that people who want old school types of MMOs aren't going to play something 10 years old with a player base that is all max leveled and extremely dated optimized engine and outdated graphics. Those games not having huge populations prove nothing regarding the demand for that type of game.
The percentage of people having broadband internet prior to WoW was about 1/4th of what it is now, and the media blitz and minstreaming MMOs that started with WoW has also brought many people to play these games that either couldn't, or didn't know about them before.
There are definitely more than a few hundred thousand MMO players who want an old style MMO. That's all it takes to be successful as long as a company doesn't go all hollywood and spend as much as SWToR did. Look at that game, over 150 mil spent and has ~500k players now a year after launch.
WoW/GW2/etc are a smart business decisions for a company, but that doesn't give gamers a great game, just a good enough game. In my mind, I think of it like McDonalds doesn't have the best burgers just because they sell the most. Ultra high popularity doesn't mean a better burger, just means it's more convenient and accessible.
Anyway, the only thing so far that "annoys" me just a bit (but I live with it, after a while it's ok) is the complete lack of lateral/diagonal animations. I mean it's not like it's "bad", there's just none at all. I forgot about that part when I started this F2P version, because that trial a year ago gave me the impression that their animations were simply either not completed or not "finished" by the time that their trial was out (which could have been possible back then). I mean... well I thought that they would have found the time and would have had the money and animators alike to work on that after a year? No? You know, just adding some animations here and there? I guess it wasn't a priority for them or their animators cost them too much. But yeah anyway it's "ok".
You are going to hate me, but I am having a hard time picturing this. Anyway to explain it better? Because this sounds interesting to just watch happen/not happen.
I am in the same boat, i have tried most just can't find anything i really want to get into.
Wish i could find something that gives me that EQ feeling of playing the first time and just wanting to explore.