Moto X (Is Out) [8.01.2013]

[destrekor]

I really don't think that there would be much more effort needed to support a phone with just a larger screen, bigger storage and a few other tweaks. And it's just not quite there for me yet to call it premium.

You don't consider the Moto X to be a premium phone?

You haven't used it then, have you? I haven't heard anyone who has used it, recently, thinking it's anything other than a premium phone (on the same level as the best phones from each manufacturer).

Aside from personal preferences (screen size, resolution, etc), of which I would personally prefer a higher-resolution screen (same size), I'm absolutely happy to use this phone.
I'm still running on stock, albeit with XposedFramework and BusyBox helping to get most of the tweaks I normally would find in CyanogenMod (at least the ones I wanted most). This is the first time ever that I've accepted a stock ROM from the manufacturer/carrier, so that alone also speaks volumes to the quality of the device experience.


Simply making a larger version of it isn't much likely. It would probably have a different GPU at the least.
Which introduces a problem you aren't thinking of: different software and drivers to support the different hardware, and these changes are supporting globally-available devices, which means a lot of regions to support with language as well as custom hardware designs like different radio package configurations. They aren't shipping each phone with every radio package already in it, it's configured by region and/or carrier(s) to support as many as reasonably possible.

Which complicates software development, and most importantly, updates/patches.
So far, the Moto X has gotten major updates first among all other non-Nexus devices. That's not due to Motorola getting access to code before anyone else, which they don't; that's Motorola rapidly turning around code from pre-release to stable for their devices, AND getting it out there in time for the carrier to review (if it has to, like on Verizon).
The Verizon Moto X patch come out super fast. And I like that - if I'm sticking to stock, I want rapid patching.


The short point: I sincerely hope that, if Motorola makes a larger phone, it's as close as possible to being the same phone as the Moto X, but enlarged.

 

[WelshBloke]

You don't consider the Moto X to be a premium phone?

Ignoring the software side (which could be easily implemented on the phone which I expressed a preference for earlier) why would I "upgrade" to a phone that has the same screen, less storage and a smaller battery than the oldish one I have now?

You haven't used it then, have you? I haven't heard anyone who has used it, recently, thinking it's anything other than a premium phone (on the same level as the best phones from each manufacturer).

No I haven't (mainly because it's only just been announced for release over here. And I'm not going to go out of my way to find one as I don't find the phone particularly compelling.
On an objective level it isn't on the same level as the top phones from other manufacturers, certainly not for my needs anyway.

Aside from personal preferences (screen size, resolution, etc), of which I would personally prefer a higher-resolution screen (same size), I'm absolutely happy to use this phone.

The screen is the bit I look at the most, I'm not going to compromise on it. If a different device offers a better one I'm not going to buy the inferior one.

I'm still running on stock, albeit with XposedFramework and BusyBox helping to get most of the tweaks I normally would find in CyanogenMod (at least the ones I wanted most). This is the first time ever that I've accepted a stock ROM from the manufacturer/carrier, so that alone also speaks volumes to the quality of the device experience.

I'm happy running an S3 on a stock ROM without Xposed or root and I'm happy. Not sure what either your or my statements prove there.

Simply making a larger version of it isn't much likely. It would probably have a different GPU at the least.
Which introduces a problem you aren't thinking of: different software and drivers to support the different hardware, and these changes are supporting globally-available devices, which means a lot of regions to support with language as well as custom hardware designs like different radio package configurations. They aren't shipping each phone with every radio package already in it, it's configured by region and/or carrier(s) to support as many as reasonably possible.

Which complicates software development, and most importantly, updates/patches.
So far, the Moto X has gotten major updates first among all other non-Nexus devices. That's not due to Motorola getting access to code before anyone else, which they don't; that's Motorola rapidly turning around code from pre-release to stable for their devices, AND getting it out there in time for the carrier to review (if it has to, like on Verizon).
The Verizon Moto X patch come out super fast. And I like that - if I'm sticking to stock, I want rapid patching.


The short point: I sincerely hope that, if Motorola makes a larger phone, it's as close as possible to being the same phone as the Moto X, but enlarged.

I don't particularly care what SOC they put in the bigger version I just want more screen, more storage and more battery. None of which involve much work to implement on the software side. Even bumping up the GPU wouldn't be any work really, it's not like Moto are actually writing the drivers for it, they are just adding the appropriate one to their ROM.

 

[thedosbox]

The short point: I sincerely hope that, if Motorola makes a larger phone, it's as close as possible to being the same phone as the Moto X, but enlarged.

I'm kind of surprised they didn't just release the Droid Maxx in a Moto-style chassis. I wouldn't have bought one, but there are plenty of people for whom a larger battery would be preferable.

 

[Joe1987]

You don't consider the Moto X to be a premium phone?

You haven't used it then, have you? I haven't heard anyone who has used it, recently, thinking it's anything other than a premium phone (on the same level as the best phones from each manufacturer).

I've been using one for a week now, it's a mid tier phone, I consider a "premium" phone to be a flagship device, most reviewers have called it a mid tier phone as well.

 

[destrekor]

Ignoring the software side (which could be easily implemented on the phone which I expressed a preference for earlier) why would I "upgrade" to a phone that has the same screen, less storage and a smaller battery than the oldish one I have now?

see below

No I haven't (mainly because it's only just been announced for release over here. And I'm not going to go out of my way to find one as I don't find the phone particularly compelling.
On an objective level it isn't on the same level as the top phones from other manufacturers, certainly not for my needs anyway.

Trust me when I say, if you are considering an upgrade for reasons being you are dissatisfied with your current phone, you NEED to get hands on with a Moto X. Trust me when I say comparing specs is a lie on this phone. Everything comes together in a way the specs alone do not suggest.

The screen is the bit I look at the most, I'm not going to compromise on it. If a different device offers a better one I'm not going to buy the inferior one.

Screen is a personal preference. It was a slight compromise for me, because I've sort of gotten used to the typical oversaturated look on the phone, because I've also become enamored with the seemingly infinite black level. I love a black screen just bleeding off the edge of the phone.

However, I do thoroughly appreciate an *accurate* LG IPS in a phone (most of the mobile IPS displays in use are sourced from LG), and can respect someone who would prefer that. I want that accurate display for my desktop, I just don't demand the same level on my phone.

If OLED is fine, then I must say, this phone will be fine. It's enough PPI to satisfy the eye, and the overall quality of the display (quite mild over-saturation, otherwise pretty good calibration readings in general iirc) and structure of the OLED matrix (a HUGE win for these displays, not having a pentile matrix). In general, the screen is uniform and great. I can't imagine needing 1080p when using this phone, not on this screen size at least. If it was stretched to 5.5", oh yes it better be 1080p.

I'm happy running an S3 on a stock ROM without Xposed or root and I'm happy. Not sure what either your or my statements prove there.

I was trying [and apparently failing] to demonstrate the quality of the overall experience, which is what one should be after. On all my previous smartphones, including a Windows Mobile 6.5 phone (Omnia), I've always installed custom ROMs in order to make a better experience. As in, I've never ran stock for that long. This phone, to me, has a stock experience, and it's perfect. Moto added a few applications. The rest of the features rely on that software interacting with the low-power cores, which truly do help round out the phone to be something phenomenal.

I've used them all and found everything quite handy. I love being able to ask for something from my phone while it's in my pocket, without ever touching it. And that the battery life, for all intents and purposes, is effectively unaffected by this. It's a 2200mAh battery that truly gives you a full day of thorough usage.

I don't particularly care what SOC they put in the bigger version I just want more screen, more storage and more battery. None of which involve much work to implement on the software side. Even bumping up the GPU wouldn't be any work really, it's not like Moto are actually writing the drivers for it, they are just adding the appropriate one to their ROM.

It does suck that the European version doesn't appear to have a 32gb option. I agree with your pain there, and that would be a huge condition I don't think I could accept. Hopefully they release one later. They probably don't feel prepared for the Moto Maker demand and want to release the lesser one first to at least get something out there.

Moto does have work involved with the hardware.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2422513,00.asp

In the end, no, it's not an incredible level of work that they can't adjust for, such as hiring more employees. They can scale. And that's what they'll do, and are doing. Give it time. In five years, they'll probably have a mobile device portfolio the size of Samsung (at least, I'm rooting for this, as a strong Motorola is good for everyone). But with the Moto Maker system, and trying to keep a wealth of licensed accessories, they're scaling slowly.

 

[WelshBloke]

Trust me when I say, if you are considering an upgrade for reasons being you are dissatisfied with your current phone, you NEED to get hands on with a Moto X. Trust me when I say comparing specs is a lie on this phone. Everything comes together in a way the specs alone do not suggest.

I'm not sure how any OS tweaks or stock apps is going to make up for a lack of storage, a smaller screen and no IRblaster (I really want an IRblaster :$ ). Honestly this phone isn't for me.
You can say that spec dont matter and to a certain extent thats true if youre talking about SOCs and the like, but stuff that directly impacts on your usage and is user facing does matter. I may not know or care what CPU is in my phone but I care if I run out storage or I dont like the screen.

Screen is a personal preference. It was a slight compromise for me, because I've sort of gotten used to the typical oversaturated look on the phone, because I've also become enamored with the seemingly infinite black level. I love a black screen just bleeding off the edge of the phone.

However, I do thoroughly appreciate an *accurate* LG IPS in a phone (most of the mobile IPS displays in use are sourced from LG), and can respect someone who would prefer that. I want that accurate display for my desktop, I just don't demand the same level on my phone.

If OLED is fine, then I must say, this phone will be fine. It's enough PPI to satisfy the eye, and the overall quality of the display (quite mild over-saturation, otherwise pretty good calibration readings in general iirc) and structure of the OLED matrix (a HUGE win for these displays, not having a pentile matrix). In general, the screen is uniform and great. I can't imagine needing 1080p when using this phone, not on this screen size at least. If it was stretched to 5.5", oh yes it better be 1080p.

I agree about OLED screens and like the same thins you do about them. I just want a bigger and more hires one than the X has if I'm going to buy a new phone.

I was trying [and apparently failing] to demonstrate the quality of the overall experience, which is what one should be after. On all my previous smartphones, including a Windows Mobile 6.5 phone (Omnia), I've always installed custom ROMs in order to make a better experience. As in, I've never ran stock for that long. This phone, to me, has a stock experience, and it's perfect. Moto added a few applications. The rest of the features rely on that software interacting with the low-power cores, which truly do help round out the phone to be something phenomenal.

I've used them all and found everything quite handy. I love being able to ask for something from my phone while it's in my pocket, without ever touching it. And that the battery life, for all intents and purposes, is effectively unaffected by this. It's a 2200mAh battery that truly gives you a full day of thorough usage.

I've been flashing ROMs on phones since I got an SPV500 back in 2005, I stopped pretty much with Android 4.1.x. I think its more about Android becoming a mature platform and Google delinking most apps from the OS than it is to do with Moto.

I dont want any info from messages displayed on my lockscreen apart from maybe an icon telling me I have an email/text/missed call/etc. I dont want a picture of the person and I certainly dont want any of the message displayed.
I also dont like voice recognition, its still way too flaky and makes too many mistakes. Also I just dont like talking to inanimate objects.

It does suck that the European version doesn't appear to have a 32gb option. I agree with your pain there, and that would be a huge condition I don't think I could accept. Hopefully they release one later. They probably don't feel prepared for the Moto Maker demand and want to release the lesser one first to at least get something out there.

Yeah the 16gb thing makes it a total no go for me but to be honest just having 32gb would put me off. Everything else about the phone would have to be perfect for me to go with that.
Its not the demand for MotoMaker as they arent doing that over here either (not that thats a problem, I'd just get a black one if I was getting one anyway).

Moto does have work involved with the hardware.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2422513,00.asp

In the end, no, it's not an incredible level of work that they can't adjust for, such as hiring more employees. They can scale. And that's what they'll do, and are doing. Give it time. In five years, they'll probably have a mobile device portfolio the size of Samsung (at least, I'm rooting for this, as a strong Motorola is good for everyone). But with the Moto Maker system, and trying to keep a wealth of licensed accessories, they're scaling slowly.

Most of that work is transferable across Moto devices using the same technology and shouldnt be impacted by any of the things I was asking for.

They dont need to (and shouldnt try for) a hardware portfolio the size of Samsungs (Samsung has way too many phones out there but as they make most of the stuff in them its probably not as much of a problem for them) but not having a high end phone thats on a par with their competitors is just daft. Thats the first device they should have released.


In short the things that elevate this phone for you aren't a draw for me, I want things that this phone cant give me and I don't buy phones from anyone if the device doesnt fit my needs.

 

[sweenish]

I've been using one for a week now, it's a mid tier phone, I consider a "premium" phone to be a flagship device, most reviewers have called it a mid tier phone as well.

The X is Moto's flagship. So by your definition, the X is premium.

You guys should stop arguing with subjective terms. Premium especially. Also, the X user experience kicks spec dick measurement out the door. It's simply not a salient point.

Using the phone is smooth (smoother than Touchwiz or any other "skin", I hear), it gets updates very quickly, is basically stock, and the additions to stock are very useful and can be updated independent of the ROM from the Play Store. If you're getting hung up on the specs purely because specs, you're doing it very wrong.

I think Android handsets as a whole have largely moved past specs as a measure of quality. All the specs in the world don't make the Galaxy S4 not stutter, and those specs don't make LG's "skin" any less hideous. Once you get past a minimum set of spec-beef which the X does pass, it doesn't matter. What starts to matter is the software. An area where the X does shine.

Maybe you prefer a larger device? Nothing wrong with that, just move along. It doesn't make the X a lesser or not "premium" phone, it simply makes it not your phone.

It's honestly disheartening that this can't be realized, especially on AT.

 

[s44]

Honestly, these "it's really premium" posts by X boosters make Moto seem like a cult.

It didn't sell at 600+ dollars/Euros/whatever. It's not premium. End.

 

[WelshBloke]

Also, the X user experience kicks spec dick measurement out the door. It's simply not a salient point...

... If you're getting hung up on the specs purely because specs, you're doing it very wrong...

... Once you get past a minimum set of spec-beef which the X does pass, it doesn't matter...

You're just looking at specs as which SOC and how much RAM and the like though. How much storage, screen size/res, camera quality, IRblaster, etc those all do matter to end users.

Maybe you prefer a larger device? Nothing wrong with that, just move along. It doesn't make the X a lesser or not "premium" phone, it simply makes it not your phone.

It's not just the size, it's those other little bits as well.
My point is that if Moto brought out that high end phone maybe a lot of other people also wouldn't have to "just move along" and Moto would pick up a bunch of sales.

This just started because I expressed a desire for Moto to fill in that gap at its high end and give me something compelling to purchase but apparently that's either too much work for Moto or it makes people uncomfortable who have bought an X that that would not be the top Moto phone anymore.

 

[foghorn67]

Honestly, these "it's really premium" posts by X boosters make Moto seem like a cult.

It didn't sell at 600+ dollars/Euros/whatever. It's not premium. End.

Coming from an S4, HTC One...it's premium to me. But what do I know, I just don't need a huge phone.

It's weird how the "it's not premium" crowd sounds the most heated about it. I guess the owners are just happy to own one.

 

[foghorn67]

This just started because I expressed a desire for Moto to fill in that gap at its high end and give me something compelling to purchase but apparently that's either too much work for Moto or it makes people uncomfortable who have bought an X that that would not be the top Moto phone anymore.

No. They are placing an importance on everyday usability. You really should watch some Dennis Woodside interviews.

Here's an honest question? What flagship excels without manufacturer ugliness?

HTC One - Least ugly out of all the skins. But it's still Sense, and it's just weird to use sometimes. I don't want two calendars, two note taking apps, two contact apps, etc.
Samsung - It's just weird, and all their hyped features are next to useless.
Touchwiz looks like it came from the Froyo days.
LG - Same thing. Really? Buttons on the back? It's pretty much a S4 clone, except those special buttons. Oh, their skin blows too.

Sony Experia XYZ- Finally looking compelling, but their American presence and marketing makes you think they don't exist here.

Google Nexus - As cool as they are, they were never meant for consumption.

GPE phones - I suppose this is where the answer is, but they are oddly limiting. No AWS for TMOUS on certain phones, and SD card support was pretty flaky on the S4. Also not a big game player. I suppose a non-geek consumer, but a Play Store regular would notice it on the front page once in a while.

 

[WelshBloke]

It's weird how the "it's not premium" crowd sounds the most heated about it. I guess the owners are just happy to own one.

That's probably because the conversation is going
person A - "it's not for me, I need it to do X, W, and Z"
person B- "but it's got A, B, and C you should buy it"
A - "No, I really want X, W and Z. I'm not that bothered about A, B or C"
B - "X, Y and Z suck, you don't need them"
A - "WTF?"

No. They are placing an importance on everyday usability. You really should watch some Dennis Woodside interviews.

That's nice for them. What if my "everyday usability" involves something different to them?

Here's an honest question? What flagship excels without manufacturer ugliness?

As I'd not be using the stock launcher on any phone IDGAS what it looks like stock.

It is funny that you think "bloat" on one phone is great but on another it's useless though.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Honestly, these "it's really premium" posts by X boosters make Moto seem like a cult.

It didn't sell at 600+ dollars/Euros/whatever. It's not premium. End.

I'm probably the biggest Motorola hater out there, but TBH it's a decent phone. It's not premium because it's not high priced, but it's a flagship and it does fine holding its own against other flagships. That's what matters in the end.

 

[foghorn67]

It is funny that you think "bloat" on one phone is great but on another it's useless though.

What bloat do I like again, please remind me?

 

[WelshBloke]

What bloat do I like again, please remind me?

Does it come with software that I'm not going to use and cant uninstall?

That seems to be the common useage of bloat on this forum.

 

[foghorn67]

Does it come with software that I'm not going to use and cant uninstall?

That seems to be the common useage of bloat on this forum.

It has Migrate and Assist. Two things. Try again.
And they update through the Play Store, along with the Camera app.
It doesn't have an ugly dialer, when the stock one is perfectly acceptable, it doesn't have an ugly redundant calendar, it doesn't have toggle settings that take half of your pull down notification screen. It doesn't have 7-15 Samsung Apps (Or LG)...etc.
Most of these non-removable apps are copies of what Google Offers. No, I don't want a Samsung store. How is that useful?
It's common in reviews for these some of these quad core fist pumping phones to chug. I think the X does not have a bloatware thing going, no review I have read says or remotely hints at calling it bloatware. Because the apps are minimal, non intrusive and aren't resource intensive.

At this point, I think you are doing weird things to rationalize what you have right now.

 

[WelshBloke]

It has Migrate and Assist. Two things. Try again.

What about the lockscreen notifications and always on listening stuff?

I dont have a problem with manufacturers adding in extra stuff, it just seems weird when someone criticises one phone for having stuff built in that they dont use but thinks a different phone is fantastic when its got built in stuff that I dont use.

There was a post the other day in these forums about adding usability to Android. When I read the OP I realised that nearly everything he wanted was built into my phones stock ROM but that he probably would criticise that ROM because the icons were the wrong colour in the settings menu.

As long as I'm able to disable stuff in the app manager I'm OK with stuff in there, I realise that its not possible to do this for everything though.

At this point, I think you are doing weird things to rationalize what you have right now.

Given that I haven't decided what I want to get next I haven't got anything to rationalise yet. You?

 

[destrekor]

Does it come with software that I'm not going to use and cant uninstall?

That seems to be the common useage of bloat on this forum.

Bloat is generally accepted to be two things: apps that cannot be removed, and ones that also contribute to performance loss. Most bloat does, because of badly optimized third-party skins (what the launcher looks like/which one you use matters not, unless you are highly customizing and removing code or flashing new ROMs, all the third-party skin resources are likely pulled up all the time).

Moto's apps can be uninstalled. You can also search the market and should be able to install them on your phone right now.
The biggest feature isn't that they are exclusive to the Moto devices, which they aren't, it's that the OS on their devices is essentially coded to give those apps hypervisor-level access to the underlying hardware, especially their custom DSPs (which one is essentially the low-power CPU, off of the SoC iirc).

You can get Moto's apps to work on other phones just fine, but they won't be nearly as useful, like when the screen is off. If that can be coded in, it'll likely have a hit on battery life.

The only bloat will come from the carrier. Verizon has some things baked in, but not really much. NFL Mobile and Backup Assistant are the only default Verizon apps on there, iirc. One of these days, I'll get around to digging through the system and getting rid of those.
I am familiar with most carriers in the world being much more awesome than Verizon, and wouldn't expect many to put software on the phone or introduce other restrictions. Some carriers don't require a locked bootloader, as in, they and Motorola will let the user unlock the bootloader. Verizon won't let you unlock the bootloader on the normal version, but it will let you on the Developer Edition. That version can't be bought on contract, can't be customized, but thankfully, even unlocked it is still covered under warranty. The normal version that can be unlocked, like on T-Mobile iirc, forces you to void the warranty (you agree to a document online about this) if you proceed to unlock the bootloader.
Every carrier is different. Verizon just has enough of a good network around my parts (and everywhere I go) to justify putting up with their crap.

 

[foghorn67]

What about the lockscreen notifications and always on listening stuff?

I dont have a problem with manufacturers adding in extra stuff, it just seems weird when someone criticises one phone for having stuff built in that they dont use but thinks a different phone is fantastic when its got built in stuff that I dont use.

There was a post the other day in these forums about adding usability to Android. When I read the OP I realised that nearly everything he wanted was built into my phones stock ROM but that he probably would criticise that ROM because the icons were the wrong colour in the settings menu.

As long as I'm able to disable stuff in the app manager I'm OK with stuff in there, I realise that its not possible to do this for everything though.




Given that I haven't decided what I want to get next I haven't got anything to rationalise yet. You?

You can pretty much disable everything on the X. Active Display, Assist, pretty much everything. It looks 99% stock save for a 2 or 3 icons in the app drawer that say Moto something

 

[WelshBloke]

You can pretty much disable everything on the X. Active Display, Assist, pretty much everything. It looks 99% stock save for a 2 or 3 icons in the app drawer that say Moto something

You can do that on most phones.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

You can do that on most phones.

You can run a new launcher, disable a bunch of Samsung features, but your phone is still loaded with TouchWiz. It's embedded in the framework.

If you want to go with a strict definition of bloat being anything you can't uninstall, one could proclaim Google+ is bloat that comes with the Nexus 5. Hell the only non bloat is technically AOSP based ROMs that have the Gapps package separate.

The issue with Samsung isn't just the skin, it's the fact that the skin is so embedded in the OS with a bunch of apps that go too far. They're not all well polished, and a lot of them are better served with Google Apps. That''s what bloat is. It's fine to add bells and whistles, but when you're going all out in adding features just for the sake of features? Too much.

You and I might not like Moto's extra features in the Moto X, but it's not going too far a la Samsung. They're adding miniscule changes here and there.

Furthermore, bloat causes slowdowns. The fact that the GS4 and its amazing hardware slows down due to TouchWiz is alarming. THAT is bloat you don't deal with on a Moto X. Even other skins that are more intrusive like the Sense skin is less bloated.

 

[WelshBloke]

Bloat is generally accepted to be two things: apps that cannot be removed, and ones that also contribute to performance loss. Most bloat does, because of badly optimized third-party skins (what the launcher looks like/which one you use matters not, unless you are highly customizing and removing code or flashing new ROMs, all the third-party skin resources are likely pulled up all the time).

As long as an app can be disabled its not going to be using any resources apart from a tiny bit of storage in the system partition. I'll agree that stuff running all the time in the background that cant be disabled and that affects performance is bad.
Skin resources are not pulled up if they arent being used. Most stock skins run horribly to start because they come with a bazzilion ropy widgets all active on the home screen and set to poll data and refresh all the time.

Moto's apps can be uninstalled. You can also search the market and should be able to install them on your phone right now.
The biggest feature isn't that they are exclusive to the Moto devices, which they aren't, it's that the OS on their devices is essentially coded to give those apps hypervisor-level access to the underlying hardware, especially their custom DSPs (which one is essentially the low-power CPU, off of the SoC iirc).

You can get Moto's apps to work on other phones just fine, but they won't be nearly as useful, like when the screen is off. If that can be coded in, it'll likely have a hit on battery life.

Most of them said that my phone wasnt supported, although I think some of that is Moto having horrible support outside of the US, I'm assuming that that will be getting better with their global release.

Anyway thats beside the point. I dont have a problem with apps preinstalled on my phone and I absolutely understand why some need to be deeply integrated into the ROM. What I dont get is the way some people set themselves up to arbitrate what is useful and acceptable to have installed for everyone else.

The only bloat will come from the carrier. Verizon has some things baked in, but not really much. NFL Mobile and Backup Assistant are the only default Verizon apps on there, iirc. One of these days, I'll get around to digging through the system and getting rid of those.
I am familiar with most carriers in the world being much more awesome than Verizon, and wouldn't expect many to put software on the phone or introduce other restrictions. Some carriers don't require a locked bootloader, as in, they and Motorola will let the user unlock the bootloader. Verizon won't let you unlock the bootloader on the normal version, but it will let you on the Developer Edition. That version can't be bought on contract, can't be customized, but thankfully, even unlocked it is still covered under warranty. The normal version that can be unlocked, like on T-Mobile iirc, forces you to void the warranty (you agree to a document online about this) if you proceed to unlock the bootloader.
Every carrier is different. Verizon just has enough of a good network around my parts (and everywhere I go) to justify putting up with their crap.

Yeah we pretty much have no carrier bloat on phones over here. I've mistakenly flashed a carrier branded ROM before and not noticed for a while. :$

That said I usually by stuff from the manufacturer rather than my carrier anyway.

 

[WelshBloke]

You can run a new launcher, disable a bunch of Samsung features, but your phone is still loaded with TouchWiz. It's embedded in the framework.

At this point its probably going to be better not to just use the term Touchwiz.
The launcher, framework and apps/hubs are all different things.

Of course you cant disable the framework, your phone wouldnt be very happy if you did.

This is also something that would be better in a different thread.

If you want to go with a strict definition of bloat being anything you can't uninstall, one could proclaim Google+ is bloat that comes with the Nexus 5. Hell the only non bloat is technically AOSP based ROMs that have the Gapps package separate.

Indeed thats why I dont particularly like the term bloat, its fairly meaningless.

The issue with Samsung isn't just the skin, it's the fact that the skin is so embedded in the OS with a bunch of apps that go too far. They're not all well polished, and a lot of them are better served with Google Apps. That''s what bloat is. It's fine to add bells and whistles, but when you're going all out in adding features just for the sake of features? Too much.

So dont use those apps and disable them then.

This is also something that would be better in a different thread.

You and I might not like Moto's extra features in the Moto X, but it's not going too far a la Samsung. They're adding miniscule changes here and there.

One mans too far is another mans not far enough.

Furthermore, bloat causes slowdowns. The fact that the GS4 and its amazing hardware slows down due to TouchWiz is alarming. THAT is bloat you don't deal with on a Moto X. Even other skins that are more intrusive like the Sense skin is less bloated.

Touchwiz skin, touchwiz launcher, touchwiz framework or bazzilions of touchwiz widgets open on the home screen?

Wasnt the problem with the S4 a botched ROM anyway? Most people now dont seem to suffer from lag.

I thought that we'd already agreed that bloat was a meaningless term?

but, This is also something that would be better in a different thread.

 

[destrekor]

As long as an app can be disabled its not going to be using any resources apart from a tiny bit of storage in the system partition. I'll agree that stuff running all the time in the background that cant be disabled and that affects performance is bad.
Skin resources are not pulled up if they arent being used. Most stock skins run horribly to start because they come with a bazzilion ropy widgets all active on the home screen and set to poll data and refresh all the time.



Most of them said that my phone wasnt supported, although I think some of that is Moto having horrible support outside of the US, I'm assuming that that will be getting better with their global release.

Anyway thats beside the point. I dont have a problem with apps preinstalled on my phone and I absolutely understand why some need to be deeply integrated into the ROM. What I dont get is the way some people set themselves up to arbitrate what is useful and acceptable to have installed for everyone else.



Yeah we pretty much have no carrier bloat on phones over here. I've mistakenly flashed a carrier branded ROM before and not noticed for a while. :$

That said I usually by stuff from the manufacturer rather than my carrier anyway.

First, what is embedded in the framework definitely impacts performance, even if you don't think you are loading it up by using third-party software that replaces the manufacturer skins.

Second, we aren't arbitrating what is useful and not - we are defining, objectively, why measuring specs is pointless. It's what hurt Moto X sales at the flagship phone price level, so they've been dropping it. Hopefully next time Motorola releases a phone with a more "flagship-worthy SoC", simply so that there aren't negative connotations. What is there does the phone justice, perfectly well.
What we've done is demonstrate that the phone and features, as is, generally allows the phone to punch above its weight-class and compete with the other flagships, even when it's supposedly got a handicap.

Now, you've stated you want features like more storage, a better camera (this could be defined, but it doesn't really matter), and an IR Blaster. I'm not going to say you do or don't need those features - and I can't see anywhere where anyone said that.
What we've said is more along the line of the above - this phone deserves attention if you can live with what features it does and doesn't have, because this phone will surprise the heck out of you if you've only been looking at specs. It's a flagship, one that feels like such.

 

[WelshBloke]

First, what is embedded in the framework definitely impacts performance, even if you don't think you are loading it up by using third-party software that replaces the manufacturer skins.

Yes but most lag is not caused by the framework its by too much stuff active at the same time.
I think we both have slightly different ideas about what constitutes a skin however.

Second, we aren't arbitrating what is useful and not - we are defining, objectively, why measuring specs is pointless. It's what hurt Moto X sales at the flagship phone price level, so they've been dropping it. Hopefully next time Motorola releases a phone with a more "flagship-worthy SoC", simply so that there aren't negative connotations. What is there does the phone justice, perfectly well.
What we've done is demonstrate that the phone and features, as is, generally allows the phone to punch above its weight-class and compete with the other flagships, even when it's supposedly got a handicap.

Now, you've stated you want features like more storage, a better camera (this could be defined, but it doesn't really matter), and an IR Blaster. I'm not going to say you do or don't need those features - and I can't see anywhere where anyone said that.

Those hardware feature to me are specs, I dont just consider spec just the SOC. I totally agree as long as the device can drive what you want it to do (not just the stock apps and launcher) then the CPU/GPU doesnt matter.

What we've said is more along the line of the above - this phone deserves attention if you can live with what features it does and doesn't have, because this phone will surprise the heck out of you if you've only been looking at specs. It's a flagship, one that feels like such.

But you seem to be ignoring the reasons I'm giving where it falls down on the features that I want.

Which is why I wanted Moto to release a phone with those features as well, but apparently thats not acceptable to a lot of you for some reason.