Moving from PA to WI - need input on buying a car

[Jawadali]

Update 6/30/11: I decided to go with the 1997 Toyota Camry LE (4 cyl., 71k miles). Thanks to everyone who provided their input!

I have now posted some general maintenance/winterization questions. Please see post #31 for details.


Old info below:

Hi Guys,

I will be moving from eastern PA to Madison, WI towards the end of July (as that is where I found a job). Therefore, I am looking to get a car in the next couple weeks.

I have heard that the winters in Wisconsin are quite harsh, so a few friends have recommended going with an All-Wheel-Drive vehicle.

• Our budget is around $4000 to $8000, although this can be increased somewhat. We plan to pay cash in full.
• From what I have heard and read, I've been inclined towards a Subaru, or something like a RAV4 or CR-V
• My priorities are reliability and low cost-of-ownership, rather than "creature comfort" features or performance.
• It doesn't have to be AWD, but that it was I focused my search on.
• I'd prefer a smaller sedan or hatchback, but wouldn't be opposed to a wagon or small SUV. I will be living by myself, with my folks or relatives visiting once every few months.
• I also need an automatic transmission.
• Most of my trips will be short. However, I will probably drive to Milwaukee (~170 miles RT) or Chicago (~300 miles RT) a couple of times a month.
• I also have to consider insurance. Once again, it may be worth it to pay a bit more upfront if it will save a significant amount of money in the long run.

I am hoping for $8000 "out the door", but can stretch this somewhat if the added cost is a good value. However, if I find something closer towards the middle of this range, I can set aside the extra money for a set of winter wheels/tires as well as for any immediate maintenance or touch-up issues.

Would you put a higher importance on mileage or age?


I was hoping I could get an early 2000's vehicle with around 60k miles (and hopefully under ~90k miles) in this price range, but I've read that it may be worth considering a newer generation vehicle with higher mileage.


Finally, here are examples some cars I have seen online. I will get in touch with the sellers in the next few days (to check availability, and to negotiate price).

Smaller dealers/repair shops (via Cars.com/AutoTrader.com):

-1999 Subaru Impreza Outback Sport (2.2L) - 55k miles - $6000
-2002 Subaru Legacy L Wagon, 60k miles - $8000
-2004 Subaru Forester - 139k miles - $6900
-2005 Subaru Outback - 148k miles - $8500
-2004 Toyota RAV4 AWD - 75k miles - $9500
-2003 Pontiac Vibe AWD - 77k miles - $8700

Individual sellers:

-2003 Subaru Legacy L Sedan - 75k miles - $7,200
-2007 Suzuki SX4 - 34k miles - $9,975
-2005 Ford Focus ZX4 SE - 67k miles - $5,500 (FWD, but seemed like a good deal).

Some of these are more than what I'm willing to spend, but if spending an extra ~$1k is the difference between a very dependable vehicle and a "mostly" dependable one, it may be worth it in the long run.


Thanks for taking the time to read this. Any input is appreciated, whether it be regarding specific vehicles or general things to look out for.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

Basically I'm doing the same thing (SoCal moving to Chicago). My friends in the upper midwest say FWD with snow tires >>> AWD with all seasons. Although none of my friends in Minneapolis have snow tires, they just get a good set of all seasons and call it a day.

I'm going the FWD route as I don't want a subaru/SUV. I'm simply getting a set of blizzaks and a set of wheels.

 

[Jawadali]

Thanks for the input. That is what some folks have been suggesting to me as well. I have been thinking to get a set of snow tires + wheels regardless of whether I end up getting an AWD car or not.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

Thanks for the input. That is what some folks have been suggesting to me as well. I have been thinking to get a set of snow tires + wheels regardless of whether I end up getting an AWD car or not.

Probably smart, I will be doing the same because I've never driven in snow in a daily basis before. If you are living in an area thats well plowed though I dont think AWD is much help. I may be talking about of my ass though, I really have no clue.

 

[getbush]

Get a fwd and a set of blizzaks, or firestone winterforces on the cheap. Ford focus or fusion, chevy impala, malibu, or cobalt. Pontiac vibe fwd.

If you're going with steelies get a smaller diameter and higher profile tire with a slightly thinner section width to maximize traction.

 

[exar333]

If you dont want to get snow tires, do your research on the 'all season' tires you do purchase. Some are very good in snow, some are horrible, and anyhere in-between.

That said, I HIGHLY recommend a pair of snow tires. $500 on snow tires easily covers just one accident deductible from a snow-related incident. The peace of mind with good snow tires up here in the north is priceless, and being confident and safe on the road is really important.

In my fiance's Jetta (with snow tires) I do better in the snow than most SUVs that have all-seasons. It's pretty amazing, actually.

 

[thedarkwolf]

What is wrong with the car you have now?

 

[IcePickFreak]

I agree with the snow tire comment. I'm in Milwaukee and finally went to a set of dedicated snow tires (Blizzak LM25s) for the winter and wouldn't go without them now until I get to a warmer climate.

FWIW this is on a 400hp RWD and it will run circles around any fwd w/all-seasons I've ever had in the snow. Not saying to buy a rwd, just saying snow tires make a night and day difference. Since you're willing to spend a little up-front for snow tires, if you find a good deal on a fwd I say go for it.

 

[Zargon]

If you dont want to get snow tires, do your research on the 'all season' tires you do purchase. Some are very good in snow, some are horrible, and anyhere in-between.

That said, I HIGHLY recommend a pair of snow tires. $500 on snow tires easily covers just one accident deductible from a snow-related incident. The piece of mind with good snow tires up here in the north is priceless, and being confident and safe on the road is really important.

In my fiance's Jetta (with snow tires) I do better in the snow than most SUVs that have all-seasons. It's pretty amazing, actually.

I put snows in my wifes car this year, she LOVES it. she works at a rural school so plowing is sketchky at best.

I work in town but our side street is never plowed before I have to be at work, but i put on/off road tires on my 4x4 jeep and it pwns now. even better than the wifes car, atleast at going. stopping/turning is fine in both

 

[BurnItDwn]

Any car with Good Snow tires will work fine in the Madison area.

If you plan on driving all around the state on rural back roads, or if you plan on towing a trailer a lot in the winter, AWD might be beneficial, but, Snow tires are really gonna be more important than AWD for winter.

I have a Forester, and it handles snow very very easily, it's got semi decent ground clearance (around 9 inches), and I have no problems driving through 12 to 16 inches of unplowwed snow (slowly). When we had a blizzard and there was 25 inches of fresh snow, it was very slow going, but I could plow right through it

As an added benefit, I get about 25MPG mixed and I have a decent sized cargo area and have no problems towing 2000 pounds.

 

[Jawadali]

Thanks for the input, guys.

I will most likely purchase snow tires in a couple of months, after I get settled. I am thinking its easiest to get new wheels to go with them, so that I can install & remove them as-needed.

I went to see the Focus, and although it seems mechanically sound, it was in worse condition than I expected for its age (interior was really worn, and it looks like it got into a small fender bender that was self-repaired).

If the seller calls me back accepting my offer, I will take it. In the mean time, I will be taking a look at some of the other options, even though they are a bit more.

What is wrong with the car you have now?

I need my own car, as my parents would each like to keep their cars (2002 Sienna and 2000 Echo).

In the worst case scenario (i.e. if I don't buy anything), I will take the Sienna, and they will use one car for a while till my dad can get something else.

 

[GregGreen]

I would recommend something FWD over AWD. That said, snow tires (or all weathers that are really good in the snow) are recommended. Sorry, can't recommend any cars -- not really sure what to recommend in that price range. I would say something domestic might be recommended because parts are going to be cheaper and a car of that era is going to need repairs (especially when you think about salt damage on the undercarriage).

I've long had a theory that those assholes driving fast in their SUVs and Subarus never seem to get: It's not the starting in slick weather that's the issue. It's the stopping.

I'm originally from Western NY and we always got a fair amount of snow. Looking on Wikipedia, it looks like Madison gets a lot less snow (about half of Buffalo but twice as much as Philly), so maybe just good all weathers would get you by.

 

[Jawadali]

I would recommend something FWD over AWD. That said, snow tires (or all weathers that are really good in the snow) are recommended. Sorry, can't recommend any cars -- not really sure what to recommend in that price range. I would say something domestic might be recommended because parts are going to be cheaper and a car of that era is going to need repairs (especially when you think about salt damage on the undercarriage).

I've long had a theory that those assholes driving fast in their SUVs and Subarus never seem to get: It's not the starting in slick weather that's the issue. It's the stopping.

I'm originally from Western NY and we always got a fair amount of snow. Looking on Wikipedia, it looks like Madison gets a lot less snow (about half of Buffalo but twice as much as Philly), so maybe just good all weathers would get you by.

Thanks for the feedback. I went to school in Philly, so that is a good benchmark.

I brought this up when I spoke to the relocation coordinator at HR today. She grew up in the area, and she said that aside from a couple really bad snow days, driving isn't too much of a problem.

If I happen to find a good deal on an AWD car, I may take it, but if not, I will stick to FWD (and probably eventually still get a set of snow tires just for the peace of mind).

Although my folks are fans of Toyota/Honda, I agree on the domestics (particulatly Ford) for the same reasons you stated, and they are slowly coming around.

 

[desy]

The Focus in your price range would be a good bet 2005 and newer as the bugs were pretty much worked out by then. An Elantra could also fit the bill same ball park years

I always buy studded snow tires on a second set of rims
General Altimax are excellent when studded and cheaper than X-ice and others, however studded increases road noise and would be the only real downside if your state allows them

 

[exar333]

I would recommend something FWD over AWD. That said, snow tires (or all weathers that are really good in the snow) are recommended. Sorry, can't recommend any cars -- not really sure what to recommend in that price range. I would say something domestic might be recommended because parts are going to be cheaper and a car of that era is going to need repairs (especially when you think about salt damage on the undercarriage).

I've long had a theory that those assholes driving fast in their SUVs and Subarus never seem to get: It's not the starting in slick weather that's the issue. It's the stopping.
I'm originally from Western NY and we always got a fair amount of snow. Looking on Wikipedia, it looks like Madison gets a lot less snow (about half of Buffalo but twice as much as Philly), so maybe just good all weathers would get you by.

You have not driven in much snow then. I completely agree that stopping is the most important aspect in winter, but when you need to churn through accumulated or plowed snow, there is no substitute for more tires turning.

This is how it goes from best to worst:

AWD/4WD w/ snow tires
FWD w/ snow tires
RWD w/ snow tires
AWD all-seasons
FWD all-seasons
RWD all-seasons

 

[Jawadali]

Update: I saw a listing for a 1997 Camry LE (4 cyl.) with 71k miles, with an asking price significantly lower than the Focus I was looking at. From the listing and the phone call, it sounds like it was treated very well (the seller's father, the original owner, passed away). I hope to go see it in the next few days, unless he decides to sell to someone living closer to him.


Any major issues/things to know about this generation of Camry?

I figure if it can get me through a few years (i.e to ~100k miles), I'll be happy.

Thanks!

 

[jlee]

I believe the '97 Camry has the 5S-FE motor which is about as bulletproof as they come. As long as you don't run it out of oil it'll go for ages.

 

[Jawadali]

Thanks jlee, that's reassuring (and hence one reason I am giving it consideration despite its age). I forgot to mention that the asking price is $4200 for it.



The other option I just found was a 2002 Saturn L200 (with 75k miles and the 2.2L I4) listed for $2800.

However, it seems that the pre-2003 L200's had an issue with a failing timing chain/tensioner/oiler (there was a recall for the 2001 models, but not the 2000 or 2002 models). It seems the timing chain assembly was revised for post-2003 models, and that kits can be purchased to install this new assembly into the older vehicles. The ad states that a new timing "belt" was installed put in, so it may already have the revised version. I will probably get in touch with the seller in the daytime.


The advantage of the L200 (aside from the price) would be potentially less body wear and rust, since it's 5 years newer. Also, it seems that traction control was standard on the 2002 L200's. However, the timing chain issue concerns me.

 

[BurnItDwn]

It's not the starting in slick weather that's the issue. It's the stopping.

Ehh, stopping is of course an issue, but, starting is just as important, since if your stuck, you don't get to your destination.
I'd also say that steering is another VERY important issue.

 

[JCH13]

+1 to the '97 Camry and FWD w/ dedicated snows. That'll hit all of your priorities on the nose. Pull the trigger.

 

[exar333]

I believe the '97 Camry has the 5S-FE motor which is about as bulletproof as they come. As long as you don't run it out of oil it'll go for ages.

This. A good friend of mine got a 99 Camry new, and it still runs like new today at about 140k. Those 90's Toyotas were amazingly built to last.

 

[Zap]

My friends in the upper midwest say FWD with snow tires >>> AWD with all seasons.

This.

The proper tires are more important than which wheels are being driven. Get some snow tires on steelies. Added bonus is that when you are on snow tires, your regular tires aren't being worn, so really the only added cost in the long run are the steelies.

With that being said, we (wife and I) love our AWD cars with snow tires in the Winter. Yes, we live in Wisconsin.

 

[Jawadali]

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't stopped perusing AWD deals either, but nothing's on the radar yet.

I plan to go see the Camry tomorrow or Sunday, depending on the seller's schedule (he's about a little over an hour away from me, and asked me to call him early on Friday if he doesn't get in touch today). Searching online, the book value has a wide range ($2900 - $4900 for a private party trade in Good condition, depending on if you go with KBB or Edmunds). I have to think of a good final offer which doesn't sound insultingly low. His asking price is $4200.

I haven't gotten more details on the L200, aside from a "will call you" text. This car is in North Philly (1.25 hours away).


A general question on a side note: how difficult, in regards to calibration/etc., is it to replace the stock wheel size with something slightly larger?

It seems that most of the closeout "rims" at tire rack are 16"-17", whereas most of the cars I am looking at have 14-15" rims.

Moving to a more common tire/wheel size may make purchasing an entire set of snow wheels cheaper than the OEM size, and in some cases, may be necessary.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't stopped perusing AWD deals either, but nothing's on the radar yet.

I plan to go see the Camry tomorrow or Sunday, depending on the seller's schedule (he's about a little over an hour away from me, and asked me to call him early on Friday if he doesn't get in touch today). Searching online, the book value has a wide range ($2900 - $4900 for a private party trade in Good condition, depending on if you go with KBB or Edmunds). I have to think of a good final offer which doesn't sound insultingly low. His asking price is $4200.

I haven't gotten more details on the L200, aside from a "will call you" text. This car is in North Philly (1.25 hours away).


A general question on a side note: how difficult, in regards to calibration/etc., is it to replace the stock wheel size with something slightly larger?

It seems that most of the closeout "rims" at tire rack are 16"-17", whereas most of the cars I am looking at have 14-15" rims.

Moving to a more common tire/wheel size may make purchasing an entire set of snow wheels cheaper than the OEM size, and in some cases, may be necessary.

For snow wheels I wouldn't worry about trying to get new ones.
Go for a junkyard set of wheels. They should be fairly easy to find, especially if you go for something older and popular like the Camry you were looking at.

 

[JCH13]

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't stopped perusing AWD deals either, but nothing's on the radar yet.

I plan to go see the Camry tomorrow or Sunday, depending on the seller's schedule (he's about a little over an hour away from me, and asked me to call him early on Friday if he doesn't get in touch today). Searching online, the book value has a wide range ($2900 - $4900 for a private party trade in Good condition, depending on if you go with KBB or Edmunds). I have to think of a good final offer which doesn't sound insultingly low. His asking price is $4200.

I haven't gotten more details on the L200, aside from a "will call you" text. This car is in North Philly (1.25 hours away).


A general question on a side note: how difficult, in regards to calibration/etc., is it to replace the stock wheel size with something slightly larger?

It seems that most of the closeout "rims" at tire rack are 16"-17", whereas most of the cars I am looking at have 14-15" rims.

Moving to a more common tire/wheel size may make purchasing an entire set of snow wheels cheaper than the OEM size, and in some cases, may be necessary.

You shouldn't need to recal your speedo for different wheel sizes, there will be a tire size that gives you the same overall diameter.

I'd go used alloys for winter. New ones might be pricey, but with free mounting and balancing from tire rack it isn't too bad. I can appreciate the crappy steel wheel argument, but the potential risk of the bead rusting up and getting stuck changing to a spare when it's -20 and pitch black isn't worth the little $$ to me. FWIW I got some alloy wheels, used, for $100.