Mp3 Frequencies....

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Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
Did you make any of them? I stopped P2P music not because of the RIAA, but because people don't know what they are doing, and it takes too much time and effort to get a decent rip and encoding of a song--I may as well take the chance and buy the CD for the hours it takes. I'd be suprised if you could ABX a decent rip (EAC secure mode) and LAME encode (3.90.3 or 3.96, --alt-preset standard).
Same here - I usually would use P2P just for songs that I wanted to sample, or else for things that were just borderline as to me liking them or not. But so often the files would have squeaks, skips, or they'd warble. I'm a fan of LAME too, but there were a few bad versions out there, and people (including me) used them a lot. However, when a new version finally came out that fixed the quality issues (3.96.1 seems pretty good), I re-rip my CD's, even if I can't hear any artifacts right away. I just like knowing that my own files are going to be nearly perfect. That, and I won't know of any real glitches until my car's CD/MP3 player has a look at the files. It finds every single error and plays it as a loud squeltching pop, like what I'd expect a dolphin's hiccup to sound like.


All this talk of the cutoff range of human hearing being around 20KHz, and the limits of CD's as being 44.1KHz - I once saw the word mentioned: "Harmonics." The really high-pitched sounds influence the lower pitched sounds in subtle ways that we are used to hearing. It's like seeing a well-done computer rendered image - you know it's CG, but you can't quite pick out what it is that gave it away. Similar case with the sound - without those higher frequencies interfering like you're used to, it might not sound quite right. It'll be really close, but just not quite.
 

GoSharks

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 1999
3,053
0
76
Originally posted by: Jeff7
All this talk of the cutoff range of human hearing being around 20KHz, and the limits of CD's as being 44.1KHz

um cds being 44.1khz refers to the sampling rate, not the actual sound frequency.
 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
21,995
855
126
Get a pair of Bose triports, they go perfect for the ipod. Even tho the ipod buds sound pretty darn good for what they are.
 

LASTGUY2GETPS2

Platinum Member
Mar 22, 2004
2,274
0
76
Originally posted by: Oyeve
Get a pair of Bose triports, they go perfect for the ipod. Even tho the ipod buds sound pretty darn good for what they are.

Uch, I've used them and I find them god awful...
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: LASTGUY2GETPS2
Originally posted by: Oyeve
Get a pair of Bose triports, they go perfect for the ipod. Even tho the ipod buds sound pretty darn good for what they are.
Uch, I've used them and I find them god awful...
Bose. Need there be more said?
 

LASTGUY2GETPS2

Platinum Member
Mar 22, 2004
2,274
0
76
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: LASTGUY2GETPS2
Originally posted by: Oyeve
Get a pair of Bose triports, they go perfect for the ipod. Even tho the ipod buds sound pretty darn good for what they are.
Uch, I've used them and I find them god awful...
Bose. Need there be more said?

The only reason why the Bose quietcomfort are so expensive (and overpriced) is because of the active noise canceling.
 

newParadigm

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2003
3,667
1
0
BOSE is too expensive, i wanted to get the the BOSE SoundDock for iPod, but when i saw the $300 pricetage i went with the AltecLansing inMotion Speakers.

What does this have to do with headphones?

This:

Get a decent pair of HeadPhones (something liek the Sennheiser PMX-60's, i have em, i love em)

And rip at 192k, and you'll be fine, if you have an iPod even better, beacuse the MPEG 4 Nature of AAC encodings makes them sound even better at a given BitRate than an MP3.

 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
21,995
855
126
Originally posted by: LASTGUY2GETPS2
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: LASTGUY2GETPS2
Originally posted by: Oyeve
Get a pair of Bose triports, they go perfect for the ipod. Even tho the ipod buds sound pretty darn good for what they are.
Uch, I've used them and I find them god awful...
Bose. Need there be more said?

The only reason why the Bose quietcomfort are so expensive (and overpriced) is because of the active noise canceling.

The triports are different from the quiet comfort (although they contain the same technology). I don't know why people hate the triports. While i hate bose i do like the triports. I set the MP3s on my ipod about 20% louder and they sound pretty decent to me. Very comfortable and light.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: newParadime
BOSE is too expensive, i wanted to get the the BOSE SoundDock for iPod, but when i saw the $300 pricetage i went with the AltecLansing inMotion Speakers.

What does this have to do with headphones?

This:

Get a decent pair of HeadPhones (something liek the Sennheiser PMX-60's, i have em, i love em)

And rip at 192k, and you'll be fine, if you have an iPod even better, beacuse the MPEG 4 Nature of AAC encodings makes them sound even better at a given BitRate than an MP3.
AAC has less support, for one thing (Ipod only). For another, while I can't find 192k listening tests, LAME and AAC are even at 128k--at high bitrates, there's no good way to compare (LAME -alt-preset standard, Vorbis -q 1, etc., are pretty much transparent).
 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,407
39
91
Originally posted by: zephyrprime
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: zephyrprime
At 128kbps, all frequencies above 10K are cut off in an MP3.
Cite?
IIRC, LAME cuts it to just under 16kHz for 128kbps.

Text The confusion is due to whether or not VBR or CBR is used apparently.
:disgust:
Are you blind, deaf. stupid, or all three?
If you look at the charts, you can clearly see that the sounds above 10K are audible. If all the sounds above 10K were cut off, you'd see all the lines dropping down at the 10k line.
If you compare the 128kbps and 256kbps charts, the frequencies drop at the same place.
It has an effect on the flatness of the overall spectrum.



 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: Oyeve
Originally posted by: LASTGUY2GETPS2
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: LASTGUY2GETPS2
Originally posted by: Oyeve
Get a pair of Bose triports, they go perfect for the ipod. Even tho the ipod buds sound pretty darn good for what they are.
Uch, I've used them and I find them god awful...
Bose. Need there be more said?

The only reason why the Bose quietcomfort are so expensive (and overpriced) is because of the active noise canceling.

The triports are different from the quiet comfort (although they contain the same technology). I don't know why people hate the triports. While i hate bose i do like the triports. I set the MP3s on my ipod about 20% louder and they sound pretty decent to me. Very comfortable and light.

Yes, they are extremely comfortable, and the sound quality is pretty stunning. They are flimsy though, and definately not worth the price. Mine have broken twice under warranty, and every time I get them fixed it takes at least a month.

I'm starting to wish I had bought some E3C's.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,554
10,171
126
Originally posted by: Cerb
Did you make any of them? I stopped P2P music not because of the RIAA, but because people don't know what they are doing, and it takes too much time and effort to get a decent rip and encoding of a song--I may as well take the chance and buy the CD for the hours it takes. I'd be suprised if you could ABX a decent rip (EAC secure mode) and LAME encode (3.90.3 or 3.96, --alt-preset standard).

Some of them. Even at high bit-rates, using multiple compressors.. I can still tell the difference. MP3 just isn't for me. (I do have perhaps above-average hearing sensitivity, I am bothered by the "noise" from various electronic devices and power-supplies too.)

A lot of musical passages may not be easily differentiable, but the music that I tend to listen to, seems to be very "challenging" for MP3 to sucessfully encode, without munging or losing bits and pieces. After having listened to the CD version so many times, my brain definately notices when something is amiss. I admit, I might not notice those changes if they aren't egregious, on material that I've never listened to before, but for well-listened tracks it's pretty obvious at least to me.

The majority of 128/192kbit/s-encoded tracks floating around out there though, those are pretty bad.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,554
10,171
126
Originally posted by: Jeff7
All this talk of the cutoff range of human hearing being around 20KHz, and the limits of CD's as being 44.1KHz - I once saw the word mentioned: "Harmonics." The really high-pitched sounds influence the lower pitched sounds in subtle ways that we are used to hearing. It's like seeing a well-done computer rendered image - you know it's CG, but you can't quite pick out what it is that gave it away. Similar case with the sound - without those higher frequencies interfering like you're used to, it might not sound quite right. It'll be really close, but just not quite.

That is probably why "high defination" DVD-audio is using 96KHz and 24-bit. I've also read some talk about how the high-frequency components that are themselves sub-audible, can, I think, create various perceptible interactions with the audible frequency range, and that by using a sampling rate of 44.1KHz for CDs, those higher-freq components are cut completely off, instead of what I've heard referred to as a "gentle roll-off".
I'm not sure how much of the description that I read was the product of "audiophile" BS, but the phenomenon seems real enough in my experience, and the math behind the sampling freq. is accurate.
 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,407
39
91
Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
Originally posted by: Cerb
Did you make any of them? I stopped P2P music not because of the RIAA, but because people don't know what they are doing, and it takes too much time and effort to get a decent rip and encoding of a song--I may as well take the chance and buy the CD for the hours it takes. I'd be suprised if you could ABX a decent rip (EAC secure mode) and LAME encode (3.90.3 or 3.96, --alt-preset standard).

Some of them. Even at high bit-rates, using multiple compressors.. I can still tell the difference. MP3 just isn't for me. (I do have perhaps above-average hearing sensitivity, I am bothered by the "noise" from various electronic devices and power-supplies too.)

A lot of musical passages may not be easily differentiable, but the music that I tend to listen to, seems to be very "challenging" for MP3 to sucessfully encode, without munging or losing bits and pieces. After having listened to the CD version so many times, my brain definately notices when something is amiss. I admit, I might not notice those changes if they aren't egregious, on material that I've never listened to before, but for well-listened tracks it's pretty obvious at least to me.

The majority of 128/192kbit/s-encoded tracks floating around out there though, those are pretty bad.

Have you ever done blind tests? A good blind test is foobar's ABX comparison.
 

TLScrappy

Member
Aug 9, 2001
164
0
0
Nope, never tried the good old blind test. I have tried a song to song comparision and hear subtle differrences.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: LASTGUY2GETPS2
Any know I'm going to be sorry for asking this but what are some of your thoughts on Apples Lossless?

I've used it and it works well. LAME alt-preset-standard MP3 sounds just as good to my ears though, plus it's compatible with just about everything.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: LASTGUY2GETPS2
Any know I'm going to be sorry for asking this but what are some of your thoughts on Apples Lossless?
That FLAC and Monkey offer good lossless performance and no corporate ties or DRM.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: Mainlander
Nope, never tried the good old blind test. I have tried a song to song comparision and hear subtle differrences.
Select the two rips in Foobar2000 (same CD, ripped in the same program, etc., only encoding differences), rightclick and do per-track replaygain. The right-click and ABX them.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
Originally posted by: GOSHARKS
Originally posted by: Jeff7
All this talk of the cutoff range of human hearing being around 20KHz, and the limits of CD's as being 44.1KHz

um cds being 44.1khz refers to the sampling rate, not the actual sound frequency.

I guess I need some schooling on what the "sampling rate" actually refers to. I thought that 44.1KHz referred to the highest frequency allowed. I assume though, and this is kind of a guess, that the 44.1KHz means that the "status" of the audio signal is recorded to the computer 44,100 times per second. If so, how many bits or bytes does each sample take up?
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: GOSHARKS
Originally posted by: Jeff7
All this talk of the cutoff range of human hearing being around 20KHz, and the limits of CD's as being 44.1KHz
um cds being 44.1khz refers to the sampling rate, not the actual sound frequency.
I guess I need some schooling on what the "sampling rate" actually refers to. I thought that 44.1KHz referred to the highest frequency allowed. I assume though, and this is kind of a guess, that the 44.1KHz means that the "status" of the audio signal is recorded to the computer 44,100 times per second. If so, how many bits or bytes does each sample take up?
It means the sampling rate. There is an audio sample, in dB, at each 1/44,1000th of a second. Nyquiest(sp)'s theorem on A/D conversion was that to mainatin an analog sound's equivalent sound, you needed double the digital sample rate. So for 22.05kHz, you need 44.1kHz. The toruble with this is that the theorem refers to solid tons, not anything like music. It works well, but there are certain issues. Higher sampling rates are a good way to get it fixed. Technically, you could have up to 44.1kHz, but the quality would seriously suffer. Also, I believe (not 100% sure) that the Red Book called for a ~22kHz cut-off.
 

RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
8,968
16
81
OK, let me just jump in to correct some misconceptions since I'm an EE student so I do have some knowledge of the subject.
A) 44.1 KHz is a sampling rate, and by he Nyquist sampling theorem, means that you can reproduce sounds up to 22.05 KHz. Without going into great detail, basically when you want to record you filter any higher frequencies than Fsampling/2 before you do the sampling or you will get aliasing artifacts.

B) I'm sure there are sounds that have harmonics at higher frequencies than 22 KHz, but its debatable as to whether anyone can perceive them, regardless of duration. Cymbal crashes and other abrupt sounds contain a lot of high frequency components, again whether you can perceive anything above 22 KHz is very debatable.

C)Any digital storage of analog signals is susceptible to quantization error. I'm not sure how the specific CD-Audio spec goes about quantization, but I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the scheme allowed for more error at high frequencies since the difference is less perceptible to humans. (google "quantization error" if you want a definition of that).

D)D/A conversion is usually far from perfect. Depending on the quality of the DAC in your system you will get varying quality from an identical digital source. Obviously, most consumer-level stuff uses schemes that are inexpensive and sacrifice some level of quality.

E)earphone specs above 20 KHz are pretty inconsequential, you may as well ignore them. At 20 Hz, you can't really hear sound as much as you feel it, as the saying goes "there's no replacement for displacement". Even the best headphones cannot rival the "feel" of listening to a track on speakers with a subwoofer that pumps accurate, gut-wrenching low frequencies. With that said, look for headphones that retain a flat response across as much of the audible spectrum. With that said, it could very well be that the Sennheisers are better cans than the stock Apple ones.

F) Don't bother with manufacturer THD specs unless you can get the level at which these measurements are taken. These numbers usually can't be compared across brands most of the time because nobody publishes the level at which the measurements are taken.

G) AAC is technically superior to MP3. Period. AAC at 128 kbps sounds better than even LAME-encoded MP3; you can definitely hear a difference at 128 kbps with decent speakers or cans. At 192kbps or above, things become murkier, and in general it becomes difficult to tell codecs apart at that bitrate and above. Unless you're listening to the tracks in a very quiet room on high quality speakers most codecs are essentially transparent above 200 kbps or above on most pieces. Some people claim they can hear imperfections in encoded audio on certain pieces even at 320 kbps; to be perfectly honest, pretty much everything is transparent for me above 192 kbps with my setup.

H) Remember that there are diminishing returns in performance/cost as you get to more expensive equipment. See if you can try out headphones before you to see if they really make a worthwhile difference to you.
 
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