MS: Kinect no longer required

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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
The Xbox 360 was $500 at launch as well with only a 20GB HDD. So...I find this pricing pretty fair.

Sony likely switched their planned pricing anyway, it is no secret that they took direct jabs at MS during their E3 conference.

What the hell? No it wasn't. 360 launched with two SKUs :

'Core' for $299
'Premium w/HDD' for $399

Those prices stayed that way for a long time because Sony overpriced by a massive amount. The day the PS3 launched you could walk into a store and buy a 360 (no hard drive, but whatever), and take it home for literally half the price.

That doesn't take into account the fact that the economy is still in much much worse shape than it was in 2005-2006. The 'recovery' has really only helped the big banks, wall street types, and 1%'ers. Overall unemployment, underemployment, numbers of people on social assistance / food stamp programs are through the ROOF compared to 2005-2006. And we saw how the PS3 sold at $599.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
Really? Your post is incorrect and it makes your claims of owning a 360 suspect.

Besides which, are you making all of this noise over NETFLIX? Really? Who cares. I have 3 boxes and an Apple TV (AND tablets) that can all play netflix. I don't need a 360 or PS3 to use netflix. The prime consideration of subbing to PSN online and XBLG is precisely for multiplayer - XB1 has a lot of stuff that PS4 doesn't (NFL live, for example, among other things) While The PS4 has other perks. So what? Netflix is not the reason I buy consoles. I don't need a console for netflix.

Both systems require a paid sub for multiplayer and friends connectivity, and while there are differences in small perks and free apps the concept is the same for both systems. For the type of games I play, I don't mind the 4$ per month for XBLG. And I wouldn't mind it for PSN online, either, if I go the PS4 route.

Fine. I didn't own an original 20gb that RROD'd and I don't have a 360 slim sitting on my stack in the loft. Whatever.

Okay, you don't want to harp on Netflix. The point is Microsoft does. They might not want to harp on Netflix specifically, but they want THIS console to be a set top box from the get go. Hell, they wanted the 360 to be a set top box, but they designed the One to be a home media convergence device first and foremost, but they stick all of those functions (remember, I gave a short sample list, but there's actually about 30 or 40 home/media/internet convergence applications currently they're trying to pitch to you) behind a fucking paywall. Why?

Listen to nearly every pitch about the Xbox One (and the PS4 for that matter) for the last six months regarding its capabilities for this generation and tell me what is it that they're pushing the hardest? It sure as hell isn't the gaming.

"Netflix" might not be the reason you buy consoles, but it's a marketing point that Microsoft is pushing damn hard this time around so they can shift even more units in a demographic that doesn't generally buy consoles.
 

RedRooster

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
6,596
0
76
It's probably not $100+ worth to me, but I think the sensory stuff the Kinect can do might be handy for me. Quick profile changes based on your face, maybe generating some sort of better avatar/game content based on what you look like that day, fast card code scanning, etc.
I agree with the folks who think this HAS to be included with every console.
 
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Zodiark1593

Platinum Member
Oct 21, 2012
2,230
4
81
XBL isn't a paywall, really. There's not much difference between PSN online and XBLG - The PS4 requires the paid version of PSN Online+ for any type of multiplayer, just as the XB1 does. This is a confirmed change with the PS4, you must pay for multiplayer. So the difference is ....... practically nothing. Maybe you can play netflix on PS4, but you cannot do any type of multiplayer on the PS4 without the paid version of PSN Online. Furthermore, I find that XBLG is pretty superior to PSN Online in its current form; Sony has made quite a few strides in the past year but overall XBLG has been the better multiplayer experience by far.
Hmm, maybe I might have a valid reason to convert my friends to PC now. Never have done any multi-player gaming with friends as they're all on the PS3.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
What the hell? No it wasn't. 360 launched with two SKUs :

'Core' for $299
'Premium w/HDD' for $399

Those prices stayed that way for a long time because Sony overpriced by a massive amount. The day the PS3 launched you could walk into a store and buy a 360 (no hard drive, but whatever), and take it home for literally half the price.

That doesn't take into account the fact that the economy is still in much much worse shape than it was in 2005-2006. The 'recovery' has really only helped the big banks, wall street types, and 1%'ers. Overall unemployment, underemployment, numbers of people on social assistance / food stamp programs are through the ROOF compared to 2005-2006. And we saw how the PS3 sold at $599.
What are you talking about? The $599 PS3 sold extremely well. Estimates are in the first 2 months 1,000,000 units were shipped to both US and Japan. And you couldn't find them on shelves. The only thing that sold better was the Wii.

The economy might be down, but game sales are up. Nobody buying a console on release days cares if it is $400 or $500. If the PS4 was also $500, nobody would be crying it was too much.

BTW, the PS3 SOLD OUT of all the initial release consoles in the US in the first day it was available.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
The PS3 sold out initial shipments due to EXACTLY the kind of super fanboy hype that affects all companies. The thing is, that if you pay attention to the numbers, that kind of initial hype is VERY thin. I remember seeing PS3s sitting on store shelves immediately after the first holiday craze, and even then, not everyone was able to get their expected profit by flipping them (that's where a ton of them got sold, CL/Ebay were JAM PACKED with people trying to flip PS3s for profit).

After all, there were what, 40-50 million PS2s sold in the US? 1 million isn't jack squat. Nintendo has 1.2M WiiU's out there now, but that's pretty much meaningless.

The FACT is that if PS3 had launched for $399 instead of $599, or at least dropped the price to $399 shortly after launch, this gen would look quite a bit different in the US.

"Nobody buying a console on release days cares if it's $400 or $500"?!?

Not only is that statement wrong on its face, neither Microsoft nor Sony have much to worry about with release days. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELEASE DAYS. There are enough die-hard fanboys and such to make release day just fine.

WHAT MATTERS IS SELLING THE NEXT 10 MILLION, 20 MILLION, 30 MILLION consoles. And I can tell you right now, $500 and even $400 is not going to cut it. Not unless the economy suddenly rumbles to life.

http://www.zacks.com/stock/news/101793/massive-decline-in-may-video-game-sales
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
As a matter of fact, I can guarantee without ANY shadow of a doubt that we'll see new lower-priced SKUs before Xmas '14. 100% guarantee. Hell I'll put $500 on it. Not everybody has $ to burn, and once those boardrooms see their hardware sales lagging, they won't be able to escape the logic of lowering the price to get more people in the door. After all, the real money comes from attachment rates, software/peripheral/XBL/PSN+ sales.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
What the hell? No it wasn't. 360 launched with two SKUs :

'Core' for $299
'Premium w/HDD' for $399

Those prices stayed that way for a long time because Sony overpriced by a massive amount. The day the PS3 launched you could walk into a store and buy a 360 (no hard drive, but whatever), and take it home for literally half the price.

That doesn't take into account the fact that the economy is still in much much worse shape than it was in 2005-2006. The 'recovery' has really only helped the big banks, wall street types, and 1%'ers. Overall unemployment, underemployment, numbers of people on social assistance / food stamp programs are through the ROOF compared to 2005-2006. And we saw how the PS3 sold at $599.

I was looking at Canada price lol my bad. Still...it's fair. I expected the PS4 with no eye for $500.

Hmm, maybe I might have a valid reason to convert my friends to PC now. Never have done any multi-player gaming with friends as they're all on the PS3.

If the number of titles and players was more even...aside from Battlefield games I think consoles have more people.

The PS3 sold out initial shipments due to EXACTLY the kind of super fanboy hype that affects all companies. The thing is, that if you pay attention to the numbers, that kind of initial hype is VERY thin. I remember seeing PS3s sitting on store shelves immediately after the first holiday craze, and even then, not everyone was able to get their expected profit by flipping them (that's where a ton of them got sold, CL/Ebay were JAM PACKED with people trying to flip PS3s for profit).

After all, there were what, 40-50 million PS2s sold in the US? 1 million isn't jack squat. Nintendo has 1.2M WiiU's out there now, but that's pretty much meaningless.

The FACT is that if PS3 had launched for $399 instead of $599, or at least dropped the price to $399 shortly after launch, this gen would look quite a bit different in the US.


The PS3 continued to sell well in the early years due to it's quality Blu-Ray playback vs stand alone players. It was $400 cheaper than the cheapest gen1 stand alone from Panasonic. It also loaded faster, read every disk without issues and got the latest updates first.
 
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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
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You're not really understanding what I'm saying. Selling PS3 hardware at $599 and losing money for the first couple of years was not a great start for Sony. To boot, those that bought them simply as Bluray players didn't buy games/accessories, leading to even worse financials for Sony.

Suffice to say, Sony got it's butt handed to it by the 360 in the US market from 2006-2009, hands down.

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/PlayStation_3

Those are absolutely dismal numbers, even more so when you consider how many of those units simply played BD films without ever selling a single game. In the valuable US market, the long-running high price of the PS3 let Xbox 360 easily take and keep the lead :

http://www.vgchartz.com/analysis/platform_totals/

26 to 44 million. The only thing that kept the 360 from dominating other markets as well was the fact that the 360 library heavily favors the US market.

I'm not saying the PS3 wasn't a nice gaming system, but to deny that the high price severely hurt it in the US is a total head-in-sand attitude. If they launched at $399, and moved to $299 shortly afterwards (even sans Bluray), this gen would have probably been a toss-up in the US. And now we find ourselves post-economic collapse, with people still thinking that $499 is an okay price for a console. That will fly with the hyper fanboys and early adopters with money to burn, but it's not going to sell to the masses. Even $399 is a stretch.

If you look at YoY gaming sales, they're declining, both globally and in the US. With the market getting ready to split to PS3/360 and PS4/XB1, there will be fewer and fewer titles coming out for the old consoles, and not infinite people able to afford $399+ for a new console. Once the launch crowd gets theirs, the numbers will come crashing to the floor. Watch for Q1 '14 to be utterly dismal overall. With the actual hardware costs significantly lower by degree compared to PS3/360, the freedom to launch a lower-price SKU will be there. And with competition as fierce as it should be, the powers that be won't be able to resist. Attachment rate is king, that's where the $$ is. To get it, you need to get the things in peoples homes and muscle out the other guy.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
I'd like to agree with you, because it makes sense, except, the people of the US rarely make sense. They spend beyond their means and their children are spoiled and get what they want. They have the world at their fingertips yet can't be bothered to research beyond facebook and what their friends tell them. People will spend the money, because ultimately it's cheaper than going out into the real world and doing something. It's another babysitter so they don't have to pay attention to their children as well...then theirs just the plain thick headed people who will sell their souls just to get the next "so so" sequel to a game.

The economy has been in the dump for years and it didn't really stop sales. The only thing that will stop sales this go around are all those people who jumped on the hype bandwagon last generation that were not gamers to begin with. They have their phones and tablets. They already figured out those systems they bought just gathered dust. More than likely they won't be purchasing this generation.
 
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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
I'd like to agree with you, because it makes sense, except, the people of the US rarely make sense. They spend beyond their means and their children are spoiled and get what they want. They have the world at their fingertips yet can't be bothered to research beyond facebook and what their friends tell them. People will spend the money, because ultimately it's cheaper than going out into the real world and doing something.

We will have to wait and see.

Do go back and look at the PS3 and even 360 numbers.

The PS3 sold 6 million units in the US from 2006 though 1Q 2009. That's horrendous.

Even look at 360, by the same time had sold 12+ million. Better, but not completely wonderful. But still pretty good overall.

For both, Q1 sales were horrendous, with almost all sales happening in the holiday season.

Last time neither company had enough incentive to lower prices. From Sony's perspective, they were even losing money at $599 due to jam packing it with high-end hardware for the era. From Microsoft's perspective, they had some similar hardware costs (lesser, but still high end for the era), and zero competition at their price points, so no need to lower prices. They also had 2005 through PS3 launch literally all to themselves.

This time around, both are launching at relatively high price points for the average family, in a very competitive marketplace. Both companies know that attachment rate is king. Both companies have products this time that should be hugely less expensive to manufacture compared to last-gen launch systems. And both know the value of getting an early lead. After all, a system is more likely to sell to friends if it will match what their friends already have. It's going to be ultra competitive, and chopping prices will be on the radar very early.

I think it's somewhat inevitable that once the launch hysteria dies down, whomever is on the losing end of hardware sales going into Q1/Q2 will be the first to consider a new SKU. Their choices are :

(1) Do nothing and watch the competitor's lead grow.
(2) Drop the price and try to steal the thunder of the leader.

The only thing that will stave this off will be full sell-through of all units shipped. Once that steam runs out and they start piling up on shelves, you will see the above equation applied. It's simple cold hard economic reality, this isn't a generation like we've seen in a long time. Too hard to compare PS2 vs Xbox/Dreamcast because of the different-year launches. Too hard to compare PS3 vs 360 because of the different-year launches and vastly differing price points along with many PS3 sales simply being Bluray players.

This is a true head-to-head out of the gate.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
As a matter of fact, I can guarantee without ANY shadow of a doubt that we'll see new lower-priced SKUs before Xmas '14. 100% guarantee. Hell I'll put $500 on it. Not everybody has $ to burn, and once those boardrooms see their hardware sales lagging, they won't be able to escape the logic of lowering the price to get more people in the door. After all, the real money comes from attachment rates, software/peripheral/XBL/PSN+ sales.

Why use a new SKU when you can simply put it on sale for the holidays? People love sales.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Why use a new SKU when you can simply put it on sale for the holidays? People love sales.

True enough, though it seems that the console makers usually do new SKUs for new pricing. Sometimes a store will run a special, but more often than not, a new SKU comes out either with bundles, new specs, etc, at a new price point.

The Kinect-less Xbox One will probably come with a 250GB or 320GB hard drive. I would also think that we'll see a 1TB Xbox One 'Elite' or something of that nature down the line.
 

chalmers

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2008
2,565
0
76
I seriously love how this forum always keeps bitching about the same thing. This was a thread about the kinect no longer needing to be connected and now it's devolved into yet another thread about paying for Xbox Live. I swear I'll never understand why Live is such an issue, pay for it if you like it, don't if you don't want it.

SunnyD and Arakaahagianigang started that mess.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
SunnyD and Arakaahagianigang started that mess.

What? I didn't say a single bad thing about XBL. I do still think it's sort of dumb that they paywall Netflix, but I also don't think it truly matters at all.
 

chalmers

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2008
2,565
0
76
What? I didn't say a single bad thing about XBL. I do still think it's sort of dumb that they paywall Netflix, but I also don't think it truly matters at all.

Right, which this thread topic had nothing to do about, hence Mr. Skel's post.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
Once again us real gamers helped get the fanbois a better product. You're welcome. ( And you two know who you are.)
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,931
5,803
126
That's certainly obvious on these forums.

he mad cause he can't fathom that people love all consoles and games for all consoles.

anyone who didn't think that xbox1 was bad from the gate is deemed a fanboy on these forums. sad really.
 
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chalmers

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2008
2,565
0
76
he mad cause he can't fathom that people love all consoles and games for all consoles.

anyone who didn't think that xbox1 was bad from the gate is deemed a fanboy on these forums. sad really.

Yeah that's it. That's exactly what I meant.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
SunnyD and Arakaahagianigang started that mess.

To be fair, I'm not entirely certain why a Kinect is needed for a set top box either. Personally it's refreshing to see all the 180's Microsoft is doing, finally listening to consumers instead of shoving crap down their throats.
 

Pheran

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2001
5,849
48
91
To be fair, I'm not entirely certain why a Kinect is needed for a set top box either. Personally it's refreshing to see all the 180's Microsoft is doing, finally listening to consumers instead of shoving crap down their throats.

Too bad the Windows team hasn't followed suit.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
145
106
www.neftastic.com
Too bad the Windows team hasn't followed suit.

I'm going to preemptively apologize to the console zealots for this one reply, but... actually they have (started to at least). Win8.1 makes several "compromises" backing away from some of the crap that Win8 did. It's a start.

Between all that and all these XBox changes, you'd think there might be a new culture at Microsoft taking hold or something.

(Okay, I'm done on that topic)
 
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