MTF Reserved Area Location - NTFS

[corkyg]

Is there any way to move the location of the NTFS MTF Reserved Area on a hard drive? I would like to get it moved away from the data files more than it is. It causes constant fragmentation by imposing itself in the uppermiddle of the drive and it is a LARGE reserved area that sucks up lots of HDD space with nothing on it.

 

[NogginBoink]

No.

 

[corkyg]

Thanks, NogginBoink. I figured that was the case after reading everything M$ had in its KB on the subject. It's too bad that it doesn't go to one end of the drive or the other - but in effect, it gut shoots the drive and forces everything to go above and below - that that causes undue fragging of files - even System files.

I can now see an advantage to FAT 32 for an external data drive. I may convert back.

 

[Nothinman]

I can now see an advantage to FAT 32 for an external data drive. I may convert back.

The only advantage FAT32 has is that Linux can write to it, otherwise it's a POS that needs to die.

 

[Derango]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

I can now see an advantage to FAT 32 for an external data drive. I may convert back.

The only advantage FAT32 has is that Linux can write to it, otherwise it's a POS that needs to die.

Its POS that should have died before they released fat32. Same thing with windows 9x/ME...that should have died earlier as well

 

[c0rv1d43]

I thought that the MFT was placed where it was because, since the OS has to almost constantly access it, it needs to be "right in the middle of things" where the heads don't have to seek very far when going between the MFT and other parts of the files system. I don't believe that there actually is an advantage to placing it at either extreme on the drive. Not only is it the "master file table", but it actually contains the smaller (< 1,024 bytes?) files on the drive. I also don't believe that fragmentation causes as much of an issue with system performance on NTFS partitions as it does on FAT/FAT32 partitions. And I also know that, if fragmentation is performed daily (even on a really BIG drive) that each defrag run takes only a few seconds. (I'm using Exec Software's Diskeeper, not the somewhat crippled built-in defragger written by the same people.) At least that's my experience on our systems.

- Collin

 

[NogginBoink]

What you *can* do, is change the size of the MFT reserved space, then format a new drive. It will reserve a larger space for the MFT.

Unfortunately, you can't do this for the OS drive because it's a chicken and the egg problem.

Q174619 has the gritty details.

 

[ProviaFan]

Originally posted by: c0rv1d43
I thought that the MFT was placed where it was because, since the OS has to almost constantly access it, it needs to be "right in the middle of things" where the heads don't have to seek very far when going between the MFT and other parts of the files system. I don't believe that there actually is an advantage to placing it at either extreme on the drive. Not only is it the "master file table", but it actually contains the smaller (< 1,024 bytes?) files on the drive. I also don't believe that fragmentation causes as much of an issue with system performance on NTFS partitions as it does on FAT/FAT32 partitions. And I also know that, if fragmentation is performed daily (even on a really BIG drive) that each defrag run takes only a few seconds. (I'm using Exec Software's Diskeeper, not the somewhat crippled built-in defragger written by the same people.) At least that's my experience on our systems.

- Collin

I was under the impression that Diskeeper could defragment the MFT if you set it to run during the boot process. Maybe my memory is just failing me at the moment, though; it's been a while since I've run that software.

 

[c0rv1d43]

I was under the impression that Diskeeper could defragment the MFT if you set it to run during the boot process. Maybe my memory is just failing me at the moment, though; it's been a while since I've run that software.

Yup, it can. And it can consolidate directory structures, and it can defrag "unmoveable" files and the pagefile, too. I wasn't referring to MFT fragmentation, just its position on the hard drive. I really don't think there's a need to be moving it to one end of the drive or another, even though its normal position may contribute to fragmentation of other files as they are written to disk. I think it's supposed to be somewhere around the middle of the occupied part of the hard drive.

- Collin

 

[corkyg]

Originally posted by: NogginBoink
What you *can* do, is change the size of the MFT reserved space, then format a new drive. It will reserve a larger space for the MFT. Unfortunately, you can't do this for the OS drive because it's a chicken and the egg problem. Q174619 has the gritty details.

I read that before asking the question - and the procedure did not work for changing the sise of the "reserved area." The drive in question is NOT the OS drive, but an external Firewire drive used only for downloads, data files, and digital imagery. The size and location of the MFT seem unreasonable - and it even gives DK 7.0 fits.

 

[c0rv1d43]

Now that is very interesting. I don't have any firewire drives, though I have both IDEs and SCSIs that are used in much the same way as you describe for your use pattern on that drive. All I know about firewire drives is how they're connected and what little I've read about them. You're saying that Diskeeper 7 has trouble defragging the file system in general, or is it having trouble defragging the MFT? I can see how boot time defragging with the drive would be a problem if the drive weren't available to the system when the defragger runs. (Would the drivers for it be loaded at that point?) Do firewire drives use different algorithms than more "standard" drive types for determining writing patterns? Is the file allocation unit size on this drive unusual? I have seen NTFS partitions with 512 byte cluster sizes cause serious ongoing file system and MFT (internal) fragmentation issues since the minimum record length in the MFT is twice that length. Moving lots of files onto and off of a drive is certainly one way to cause lots of fragmentation, but I haven't seen Diskeeper have any trouble with any of my drives. But I am careful never to use more than about 70% of a drive. Just a little thing I have about full drives.

- Collin

 

[corkyg]

DiskKeeper and PerfectDisk both do an excellent job of defragging off-line - the system files. But, they do not change the placement of the MFT area. Anyway - here is a postscript - and the problem is resolved.

What I did was use PartitionMagic 8 (does external 1394 HDDs) and convert the drive back to FAT32. Then I rebooted and played with that, and optimized that Firewire drive completely so that all the files were nicely arranged by use and together.

Then I used P/M 8 and converted to NTFS. This time, the conversion was cognizant of the file area and it gave me some freeboard by placing the MFT area farther down on the drive. That solved the problem - at least until the drive starts getting full. In other words, a fresh start on the old drive allowed XP to solve the problem itself.

P/M 8 also now handles 160 GB partitions. It is a good upgrade from 7. 7 would not do Firewire.

 

[c0rv1d43]

Ingenuity strikes again!



I'm glad you resolved it. Being the non-adventurous kind I've never cared much for PM. Seems like the only dealings I ever have with it is trying to get back data for people who aren't careful enough with the utility, particularly with its special features. But this sounds like a pretty good application for that product.

- Collin

 

[RalfHutter]

Originally posted by: corky-g
What I did was use PartitionMagic 8 and convert the drive back to FAT32.............................blah, blah,blah........................................ Then I used P/M 8 and converted to NTFS.

Man, you got some huevos dude! Or you got a good backup of your drive....

I've never had it bite me (yet, knock wood) but I use PM only as a last option. Lots of horror stories about PM (the guys at HDD companies call it "Partition Tragic") just creating/moving partitions, but changing the file system back and forth....damn!


BTW - I just used PerfectDisk for the first time on a fresh XP Pro sp1 install a few weeks ago. I did the boot-time defrag of the MFT and Pagefile and noticed afterwards that it had actually moved the MFT and Pagefile away from the outside of the drive, in towards the middle. This was on a brand-new fresh install with hardly anything added to the drive. I've been using Diskeeper Full for the last 1 1/2 years and it does not move the MFT/Pagefile under the same circumstances. FWIW.