Multiple fatalities in shooting at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church

[Fern]

According to CNN http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/us/charleston-church-shooting-main/index.html, he claimed that the reason was to start a race war.

"Dylann Roof admits he did it, two law enforcement officials said... But why? To start a race war, Roof told investigators, according to one of the officials."

Reminds me of Charles Manson. The murders were his attempt to start a race war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helter_Skelter_(Manson_scenario)

Fern

 

[irishScott]

Sorry, but that's not the answer. That's a "stick your head in the sand" cop out. If that's all your parents told you, they failed you miserably.

Let's apply your answer to other scenarios, so maybe even you can see its moral and intellectual poverty.

The answer is, "Some people are gun-grabbing morons and there's fuck-all us non-gun-grabbing-morons can do about it."

The answer is, "Some people are murderous,Western hating jihadists and there's nothing us non-Western hating, non-jihadists can do about it."

The answer is, "Some people are satanic pederasts and there's nothing us non-satanic, non-pederasts can do about it."

Some people present themselves as and believe themselves not to be racists, but shrug their shoulders on this one issue and pretend there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Why is that?

Actually there's a lot of truth in those things you just facetiously stated. Some people are gun-grabbers and there's nothing I can do to change their minds. Some people are murderous Islamic religious fanatics and there's nothing I can do to change their minds. Some people are satanic pederasts and there's nothing I can do to change their minds. That wall to the left of me is made of concrete and no amount of strength, ingenuity or angle of attack is going to allow me to run through it. Only time and a constant wearing down of the wall by whatever mild force I can bring to bear.

What, oh wise one, is your answer to racism? Pointing out a problem is easy. Criticizing those like myself who correctly say there is no readily available solution is easy, at least on philosophical grounds. Coming up with an effective solution to problems like these is insanely difficult, and might be impossible for one person or one group to achieve. History and present day is full of people who chastise other people for "sticking their heads in the sand", but when they get their way they cause more problems than they solve. In fact it's a common refrain among irrational radicals. Like pro-gunners who chastise the NRA for being "fair weather 2nd amendment supporters" and want to repeal the National Firearms Act (there are millions of these), or technologists who want to abolish software patents tomorrow without even acknowledging the potential economic implications.

Basically people like yourself who seem to prefer ignoring hard realities in favor of the bright, righteously fulfilling philosophy of the future! You serve your feelings more than you serve the issue you're trying to solve. You're the person who claims to be fascinated by spaceflight but refuses to sit through a physics or engineering lecture. You're the French Generals in WWI who believed the ill-defined "spirit of the attack" would win them the war early on.

I await your direct, bright, effective solutions. If you actually have one though, I suggest you get off this forum and go win yourself a Nobel peace prize. Hell if you can convince one poster on Stormfront that there isn't an incoming race war, I'll be impressed.

 

[DrDoug]

Actually there's a lot of truth in those things you just facetiously stated. Some people are gun-grabbers and there's nothing I can do to change their minds. Some people are murderous Islamic religious fanatics and there's nothing I can do to change their minds. Some people are satanic pederasts and there's nothing I can do to change their minds. That wall to the left of me is made of concrete and no amount of strength, ingenuity or angle of attack is going to allow me to run through it. Only time and a constant wearing down of the wall by whatever mild force I can bring to bear.

What, oh wise one, is your answer to racism? Pointing out a problem is easy. Criticizing those like myself who correctly say there is no readily available solution is easy, at least on philosophical grounds. Coming up with an effective solution to problems like these is insanely difficult, and might be impossible for one person or one group to achieve. History and present day is full of people who chastise other people for "sticking their heads in the sand", but when they get their way they cause more problems than they solve. In fact it's a common refrain among irrational radicals. Like pro-gunners who chastise the NRA for being "fair weather 2nd amendment supporters" and want to repeal the National Firearms Act (there are millions of these), or technologists who want to abolish software patents tomorrow without even acknowledging the potential economic implications.

Basically people like yourself who seem to prefer ignoring hard realities in favor of the bright, righteously fulfilling philosophy of the future! You serve your feelings more than you serve the issue you're trying to solve. You're the person who claims to be fascinated by spaceflight but refuses to sit through a physics or engineering lecture.

I await your direct, bright, effective solutions. If you actually have one though, I suggest you get off this forum and go win yourself a Nobel peace prize. Hell if you can convince one poster on Stormfront that there isn't an incoming race war, I'll be impressed.

I like how you changed his "do something about it" to "change their minds". You do know that something can be done without changing any minds, right?

I love how conservatives always have the answers when they see the 'enemy'. Deport the 'enemy', jail the 'enemy', kill the 'enemy', bomb the 'enemy' and so on. But on this issue, they say there's nothing we can do about it....lol! That's because refuse to see some of their fellow conservatives as what they really are...

the enemy.

 

[irishScott]

I like how you changed his "do something about it" to "change their minds". You do know that something can be done without changing any minds, right?

I love how conservatives always have the answers when they see the 'enemy'. Deport the 'enemy', jail the 'enemy', kill the 'enemy', bomb the 'enemy' and so on. But on this issue, they say there's nothing we can do about it....lol! That's because refuse to see some of their fellow conservatives as what they really are...

the enemy.

Alright, so if we're not going to change their minds, then what the hell are we going to do about racism? I'm hearing a lot of righteous bravado and zero concrete ideas.

Also, would it surprise you to know I voted for a Democrat senator last election?

 

[Blue_Max]

Bro, nobody knows who the perpetrator was right now. He could be a "right wing guns toting terrorist" or a white convert Islam Daeshlover or something else. Just chill out and wait for more details.

QFT. Looking forward to knowing those details. Could be anything...

"Xenu told me to." :whiste:

 

[fskimospy]

QFT. Looking forward to knowing those details. Could be anything...

"Xenu told me to." :whiste:

Lolwut.

 

[Fern]

I'm just noticing that all the people who never miss their chance to label black people behaving badly as savages/thugs and then when called out on that pattern claim they will label any race guilty of the same behavior as savages/thugs don't seem to be jumping at their chance here, now do they?

"Savage" doesn't strike me as an appropriate term in this case. I would say that if the races were reversed too.

This shooting seems very very cold blooded, emotionless, dispassionate.

"Savage" behavior OTOH seems to me that which is very passionate, highly agitated emotionally, manic in its violence, groups curb stomping people, kicking them in the head etc. Think Rodney King riots etc.

I recall the Beltway Snipers; two black guys using the trunk of their car to sniper/shoot/murder people. That was also very cold blooded and I don't recall the terms "savage" or "thugs" to have been applied to them. (I wouldn't, it was cold blooded murder for financial gain IIRC.)

Otherwise, people need to chill until this is investigated and we have confirmed facts.

--------------------

I'm puzzled by some news reports I've seen:

- Killer did not live in Charleston, not near it. Charleston is on the coast, this guy supposedly in the middle of the state.

- This guy seemed to have targeted the pastor/state legislator. How did he even become of the pastor/legislators existence?

Most people don't know who there US politicians are, much less a lowly state level politician from another part of their state. Most people don't who the pastors are in local churches. No one knows the pastors of churches from other parts of their state.

How in the h3ll did this kid come to fixate on this pastor/politician?

- I heard when the kid went into the church he asked some members which guy was the pastor/politician. Now you travel halfway across a state to assassinate a specific person and you don't bother to find out what they look like? You have the presence of mind to find out your victim's schedule so you'll know when and where he will be but you don't use google/Facebook etc to find their picture?

Seems weird to me. There may be more to this story.

Fern

 

[DrDoug]

Alright, so if we're not going to change their minds, then what the hell are we going to do about racism? I'm hearing a lot of righteous bravado and zero concrete ideas.

Also, would it surprise you to know I voted for a Democrat senator last election?

Here's a good place to start. When we can make being a member of this type of hate organization unacceptable then we have made a little progress against racism.

Regarding your having voted for a Democratic senator, good for you. But instead of throwing your hands up in the air regarding this or even challenging others to solve the problem for you just for you to shoot down their arguments to prove that doing anything is futile, at least try to come up with something that can help.

Just quit giving up without even trying.

 

[Fern]

I like how you changed his "do something about it" to "change their minds". You do know that something can be done without changing any minds, right?

I love how conservatives always have the answers when they see the 'enemy'. Deport the 'enemy', jail the 'enemy', kill the 'enemy', bomb the 'enemy' and so on. But on this issue, they say there's nothing we can do about it....lol! That's because refuse to see some of their fellow conservatives as what they really are...

the enemy.

You post scary stuff.

People in this country have the right to free speech. It's protected, particularly speech many find repugnant. That included racists speech.

People also have a right to have an opinion, even if you disagree with it.

You seem to be advocating the most extreme form of 'thought policing' I can imagine (e.g., kill them, bomb them, jail them) for those whom you disagree with.

We can't, and shouldn't, go around killing or jailing people because we suspect (or even know) that they harbor racists thoughts.

Given the present facts I see nothing that could have been done legally to stop this guy before he committed those murders. There's no evidence of any conspiracy that could have been uncovered etc. No illegal weapons purchase. No communication with domestic terrorist/white supremacy groups to uncover his plans. No reports from psychologists the police could have acted on.

Fern

 

[OCNewbie]

Given the present facts I see nothing that could have been done legally to stop this guy before he committed those murders.

Supposedly the killer, Dyllan Roof, had been pretty vocal about his intentions, if not with exact specificity, with a good friend of his. This would be omitted from the list of "present facts", but it may turn out to be something.

 

[Blanky]

One of those steps has to be White Americans having an honest conversation about White culture. Yes, White culture.

If that sounds shocking, think about this: how many times have we explicitly asked Black folks to address the ‘problems’ of Black culture, from fatherlessness to violent music to shootings in Chicago? African Americans engage in these conversations regularly. Now it’s time for my White brothers and sisters lead their own conversations as well.

The odds of whites having an honest conversation about their own culture's problems are about the same as blacks having one about theirs. And I expect given the resistance of blacks to be challenged on that by whites that they'll encounter the same resistance if they challenge whites.

 

[DrDoug]

You post scary stuff.

People in this country have the right to free speech. It's protected, particularly speech many find repugnant. That included racists speech.

People also have a right to have an opinion, even if you disagree with it.

You seem to be advocating the most extreme form of 'thought policing' I can imagine (e.g., kill them, bomb them, jail them) for those whom you disagree with.

We can't, and shouldn't, go around killing or jailing people because we suspect (or even know) that they harbor racists thoughts.

Given the present facts I see nothing that could have been done legally to stop this guy before he committed those murders. There's no evidence of any conspiracy that could have been uncovered etc. No illegal weapons purchase. No communication with domestic terrorist/white supremacy groups to uncover his plans. No reports from psychologists the police could have acted on.

Fern

Where the hell do you get that I'm for "killing or jailing people because we suspect (or even know) that they harbor racists thoughts"? I have said nothing of the sort and if you think I have, please quote it. The cop in the link gets to stay a member of the hate group, he just lost his job that the public paid him for.

He has his freedom to remain a hate group member so I see no problem with his being fired.

No, nothing legally could have been done to stop this domestic terrorist from doing what he did once he decided to do it. You are right about that, but we could have done something about it a long time ago in really addressing racism and doing something about it. Instead, this guy was evidently so steeped in racism that he felt our country was in danger of being taken over by black people and he felt he had to do something about it now. He was egged into doing what he did and our 'culture', where he grew up and became the monster he is, egged him on. Our culture makes these monsters and we will keep creating these monsters as long as we refuse to do anything about racism.

One good thing would be to remove all of the "heritage" from the south. Most of this cropped back up in the 40's and 50's in response to black people fighting for equality and it has nothing to do with "heritage".

This cop getting fired was a good start.

 

[Jhhnn]

it wasn't an attack on black people...it was at attack on Christianity, right?

That's the Fox News spin. Rick Perry's spin isn't any better. It's utterly shameful.

Much of White America simply refuses to look into their own hearts to see the ugliness there. Fox spin encourages them to keep right on doing just that & to accept racism as not-racism.

There's a lot of that, and there's a lot of virulent racism perpetrated at the family level & at the level of the cultural milieu in various parts of the country. What kind of attitudes & beliefs about race did this young man get from his father, his grandfathers & the society in which they live? Is racism condemned in the strongest terms?

In Charleston? Get Real. He's received racist messaging on multiple levels ever since he was a toddler. It happens in many nuanced ways- tone of voice, body english & the very separateness of the races in their environment. The other side of it, the condemnation of racism? Well, uhh, err, it was really an attack on faith. It was the drugs. It was mental illness. Yeh, that's it! Any of those! Why, race wasn't really that big a factor, was it? It's not that bad. Can we move on now?

We'd like to forget that racism expresses itself in all sorts of ways. What happens when kids taught the same things grow up to be cops, judges & HR staff in charge of hiring? Will they magically treat black people the same as white if they never look into their own hearts?

 

[Fern]

Where the hell do you get that I'm for "killing or jailing people because we suspect (or even know) that they harbor racists thoughts"?
-snip-

Going by your own words:

Originally Posted by DrDoug
-snip-
I love how conservatives always have the answers when they see the 'enemy'. Deport the 'enemy', jail the 'enemy', kill the 'enemy', bomb the 'enemy' and so on. But on this issue, they say there's nothing we can do about it....lol! That's because refuse to see some of their fellow conservatives as what they really are...

the enemy.

Note particularly the last portion.

And here you post an example of someone losing their job for their views and suggest we do that (as a "start").

Here's a good place to start. When we can make being a member of this type of hate organization unacceptable then we have made a little progress against racism.
-snip-

Fern

 

[DrDoug]

Going by your own words:



Note particularly the last portion.

Fern

If you notice, I put 'enemy' in air quotes to denote something that just might not be an enemy...lol! As an aside, I didn't know that every time you have an enemy you must kill or jail them. What a simple world you must live in.

You would think that someone would be intelligent enough to read the first part of what you quoted and gather that I'm against those things

 

[Indus]

You know what? I think everyone should see this video, and yes I posted it before, but I do think Jon Stewart put into words what very few others could.

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/kb2h42/charleston-church-shooting

He gets it!

 

[DrDoug]

Obama on the confederate flag flown at the state capital in SC...

That's gonna piss some confederates off but at least he says that it belongs in a museum! :biggrin:

 

[echo4747]

Been watching various family members of the victims speak on TV. These are people of truly amazing faith. I am astonished that many have already have the ability forgive the shooter during such a time of immense personal grief.
If I was in their situation, I don't know if I could do the same. I'd like to think I could but I doubt it.

 

[brianmanahan]

That's gonna p*** some confederates off but at least he says that it belongs in a museum! :biggrin:

 

[waggy]

Been watching various family members of the victims speak on TV. These are people of truly amazing faith. I am astonished that many have already have the ability forgive the shooter during such a time of immense personal grief.
If I was in their situation, I don't know if I could do the same. I'd like to think I could but I doubt it.

Yea i am amazed at it. truly those that live Gods word.

 

[Indus]

Obama on the confederate flag flown at the state capital in SC...

That's gonna piss some confederates off but at least he says that it belongs in a museum! :biggrin:

It does belong in a museum.

 

[feralkid]

Also, would it surprise you to know I voted for a Democrat senator last election?

"Some of my best friends are Black Democrats".

 

[echo4747]

It does belong in a museum.

The stars and stripes also flew over a land that allowed and endorsed slavery. Is that next?

 

[echo4747]

Yea i am amazed at it. truly those that live Gods word.

yep... these folks walk the walk not talk the talk

 

[Indus]

The stars and stripes also flew over a land that allowed and endorsed slavery. Is that next?

Next? You are misinformed.. all of the older flags from 13 stars to 49 are in historical museums already..