Music for long term storage...

tinpanalley

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Jul 13, 2011
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Imagine money isn't an issue. Imagine obsolescence isn't an issue. Just for a moment...
Doesn't SSD stand a better chance of surviving longer than HDD if the drive will only be written to once and then accessed for copying music from or for ocassionally playing from? I go back to HDDs that have been shelved for years and they pretty much fail to play about 25% of the time. Wont SSDs run years from now with fewer chance of problems than HDD?

Again, please imagine money not being an issue. I don't need to hear about how pound for pound HDDs are more affordable.

Thanks!
 

Charlie98

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Nov 6, 2011
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Are you talking about the SSD remaining in the system (under power) for all those years?
 

Anteaus

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Oct 28, 2010
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No. SSD's are prone to data lose when powered down for long periods of time. Of course all SSDs are not all equal and I'm sure some models have higher retention than others, but in general if we are talking about offline storage, HDDs are vastly superior to SSD....at least based on current SSD technology. That may change in the future though.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ssds-lose-data-if-left-without-power-just-7-days-1500402

The irony of it all is that by many SSDs are considered more reliable than hard drives due to the lack of moving parts, but in my experience I have seen SSDs fail two to three times as often as hard drives, mostly due to firmware issues or other explainable reasons. I've never seen an SSD die from excessive writes, even though that is often trumpeted as the biggest weakness of SSDs.

SSDs are far more reliable today than they were just a couple of years ago, but I still wouldn't trust one as a dedicated storage device.
 

tinpanalley

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Jul 13, 2011
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Are you talking about the SSD remaining in the system (under power) for all those years?
in general if we are talking about offline storage, HDDs are vastly superior to SSD
I am talking about the fact that I've got close to 450GB (80% in FLAC, 20% in 320kbps MP3) that I don't want to lose. Right now and for severeal years they've lived in my desktop as my second hdd, media drive only. I want to store them for as long as possible. Whether that means I have to do something banal like run a virus check or benchmark test on them every six months to make sure they don't die, that's fine with me, I can do that. Right now I make solid backups that need to last on disc. I'm not going to explain why or which media I buy because then I find the thread tends to turn into advice about why disc media sucks or is cumbersome and blah blah blah. I just use discs. But the potential for SSD copying faster and storing in one small light place is fantastic. Hence, my question about SSD. My problem with HDD? That's in the next answer...

Was it 25% of number of harddisks failures or number of files which could not be read?
Exactly what I said, they fail to run (and they die) 25% of the time when they're older than, say, 3 years. 25% of HDDs I've purchased have at some point been plugged in and not been able to read due to hardware failure. I have ALWAYS bought the brand considered to be best functioning at any moment. Doesn't matter. They fail on me. Stored just as carefully (not 'in the same manner', I'm not nuts) as my CDs, records, and books. It doesn't matter whether I have bad luck or not asI see it because even disregarding luck, they fail at a significantly higher rate than any other media for me so I've grown reluctant about long term storage on HDD.

So, in the end, I like the tangible security of disks but I was attracted by the ability to have a non-spinning-disk large storage format. But clearly, what I'm seeing now is that SSDs today seem to not be anywhere near the level HDDs are for long term security. It seems they're not the incredible solution people describe them as. And certainly not for long-term storage for people like me who archive and catalogue music digitally. You have to understand, these aren't 128kbps MP3s. These are 78s, vinyl records, out of print CDs and other archived and hard to find music and films/tv programs that all need to be safe when I go load them up again whenever I go to them again. Am I right then? Skip the SSDs for the foreseeable future?

If there IS a HDD line, brand, model you can think of that would suit my needs well, please let me know. Thanks!
 
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BSim500

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Jun 5, 2013
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- Golden rule of backing up data : Don't make a backup, make 2 or 3
- HDD's are still better for years of unpowered data retention and 99.9% "downtime"
- Secondary storage music / video backups don't benefit as much from SSD speed or access times
- About the only SSD I'd use for long-term unpowered stuff are Samsung PRO's (40nm cells + MLC). TLC + sub-20nm cell sizes provide the exact opposite of what you're looking for

Again, please imagine money not being an issue. I don't need to hear about how pound for pound HDDs are more affordable.
I think you're looking it at from the wrong perspective. It makes no sense to compare 1x SSD vs 1x HDD purely for unpowered backups of data that's important / time consuming to replace, as you should have (or be planning) at least 2-3x backup copies anyway. For less than half the price of 1x 1TB Samsung 850 PRO SSD, you could buy 3-4x 1TB 2.5" HDD's. Even if "only" 25% of those fail after 5 years, you've still got WAY more redundancy in having 2-3x working data sets vs "putting all your eggs in one basket". The SSD / HDD controller, interface or power circuitry can fail too even if the disk surface / flash cells remain intact.

And you've also got to think about not just single drive reliability, but overall physical security (ie, keep at least one drive in a different location, maybe ask your brother / sister / parents / kids to look after one in their house, in case of unforeseen theft / fire, etc). 3x drives also allows you to use one to "refresh" another in cycles every couple of years, (eg, 2017 = A>B / 2019 = B>C / 2021 = C>A, etc) and still have a third drive offline at any one time in case anything happens (eg, power surge) to the two that are plugged in during the refresh. This is one of those situations where spending a ton on a super "lifelong" SSD gains you less vs spreading the risk over several ordinary cheap HDD's. You said yourself "25% failure" means with 3x backup drives of identical data, after 5 years you should still have on average 2 working copies. Keep everything on only one drive, plug it in and halfway through the recovery "pffftt", the controller randomly dies, and you've still lost everything even if the data itself survived 10, 20, 30 years.

PS: HGST (Hitachi) were generally the most reliable according to Backblaze tests:-
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-reliability-q3-2015/

Whether or not their server use translates to light unpowered backup use is an unknown, but I replaced 3x family member's laptops recently (one 9 years old), all Hitachi drives, zero problems.
 

tinpanalley

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Jul 13, 2011
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You said yourself "25% failure" means with 3x backup drives of identical data, after 5 years you should still have on average 2 working copies. Keep everything on only one drive, plug it in and halfway through the recovery "pffftt", the controller randomly dies, and you've still lost everything even if the data itself survived 10, 20, 30 years.
Probably the best single point I've heard. This is undeniably true, of course and impossible to argue. And of course, I was in fact asking, because I wanted to know whether this SSD potency talked about online was really at a point of being able to replace HDDs long term. Clearly it's all marketing talk and sales pitches that have no real data behind them. I wonder if even having a 250GB Samsung EVO as my C drive is reliable.
I know people who work in radio, music, etc and HDDs and BD is still the way they archive their important material. BD for in house access, and HDDs in off-site storage servers.
I will instead look at HDDs. In fact, I'll try to get two 2TB drives. That way, I have the one I use now in my system and two backups as well.
Two questions, if I'm constantly adding to the HDD...
1. So, I should cycle the content of the one currently in use every two years? So, A(in use) copy to B, B > C, C > A? Is that the idea?
2. I'm assuming anti-static sleeves in a dry place isn't enough. Are there recognised storage cases/boxes etc for hdds to really sit for long times well? At least as safely as possible?
3. If storage is the primary use of these drives, is cache important?

Thanks!
 

JimmiG

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Feb 24, 2005
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In my opinion, a safe method, which I use:

-One backup goes to an internal 3.5" HDD twice a week

-One backup goes to an external USB 3.5" HDD which is always plugged in (but usually not spinning due to power saving and the fact that it's only used for backups), also twice a week. I could unplug the drive between backups, but I found it's usually better to keep it plugged all the time than to keep forgetting to plug it in for the backup jobs.

-One backup goes to Crashplan online, continuous backup mode

I use EaseUS Todo Backup for the local backups in incremental mode. They are merged and verified every month to save disk space.

The idea is that even if my PSU decides to fry the entire PC, the USB drive should be relatively safe since it has its own power supply. Even if my house burns down, I've got the cloud backup which is safe as long as I keep paying the yearly fee.

IMO you can't just make one (or two) backups and put the drives in a drawer somewhere and then take them out 5 years later. You're safer if you actively verify the backups and make sure you have at least 2 working backup sets at any time. The drives themselves are expendable, it's the data on them that you want to keep safe.
 
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larryccf

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May 23, 2015
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fwiw, on the subject of unpowered SSD storage

i've been using one of these for a few years now, for that very purpose
one of the bays is powered + the data cable is connected, the other is only powered, with no data connection

I'll clone the OS drive, and then move the SSD to the bay w/o data connection. Meantime, i'll move the SSD that i cloned the previous week into the bay with both power & data connections, kind of leap frogging my backup clones. But the idea is the SSD stays powered, no matter which bay it's in. And in the event of a massive failure, ie data corrupted thru malware infection, or maybe a bad cloning, i've always got the 2nd SSD that might be 2 weeks old, still secure.

 

tinpanalley

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Jul 13, 2011
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I'll clone the OS drive, and then move the SSD to the bay w/o data connection. Meantime, i'll
I've gotta be honest, you completely lost me. I'm trying to apply your method to my media drive (not OS drive) to see if it works for me.
 
Feb 25, 2011
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Archival quality optical media used to be preferred for this sort of thing. Large amounts of data stored on hard drives are SSDs needs to be live and managed, due to device failures and other data retention issues.
 

tinpanalley

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Jul 13, 2011
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IMO you can't just make one (or two) backups and put the drives in a drawer somewhere and then take them out 5 years later. You're safer if you actively verify the backups and make sure you have at least 2 working backup sets at any time. The drives themselves are expendable, it's the data on them that you want to keep safe.
True.
Ok, so it sounds like you're also doing this for media like me, and not for the main C drive. I don't like cloud, I'll never use it. So, with that out of the way, does all this backing up locally take time? Does it slow down your computer? Does it interfere with other operations (virus scans, using software, etc...). I can't really have backups taking up RAM and processing power when I work on my computer.
 
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Charlie98

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Nov 6, 2011
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Archival quality optical media used to be preferred for this sort of thing. Large amounts of data stored on hard drives are SSDs needs to be live and managed, due to device failures and other data retention issues.

I agree. Filling up a HDD or SSD and pulling it out to set on a shelf is madness.

OP, 500GB of media is nothing (size-wise, not value) Buy yourself 3 portable HDDs and rotate them (2 on, 1 off) into your system, using them to back up your media files. Additionally I would add at least one internal HDD, preferably 2, to back up the same. I use the very same system to back up my proprietary business files every day. (No, seriously, I make a complete OS disk image every night across at least 4 drives. I use Acronis.) Yes, when my drives hit 20K hours, they get moved to less critical duty and a new drive takes it's place.

SSD's are not meant for general storage, the beauty of an SSD is speed... HDD's are still the best thing going for data storage, active or otherwise.
 

tinpanalley

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Jul 13, 2011
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Buy yourself 3 portable HDDs and rotate them (2 on, 1 off) into your system, using them to back up your media files. Additionally...

I'm sorry, I don't think I get your method. It's really not you, I'm just not getting it. How do you rotate an external drive INTO your system?
 

larryccf

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May 23, 2015
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I've gotta be honest, you completely lost me. I'm trying to apply your method to my media drive (not OS drive) to see if it works for me.

i was showing you how i keep my SSDs from loosing data over time due to lack of power, which SSDs will do
 

smitbret

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Jul 27, 2006
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Long term, I trust spinners as long as they are kept/stored away from temperature extremes, high humidity and impacts. Not only that, but I could get 2 or 3 HDD backups for the same price as 1 SSD. I use SSDs for OS and cache where they excel because of speed.

I keep my original files in a RAID 6.

Incremental Weekly Backups to an external HDD.

Cloud backup to SpiderOak which monitors the folders daily at 9AM.

If the RAID 6 goes down (highly unlikely), I still have local backup.

If the Local Backup is bad or I have a flood or fire, I still have offsite cloud.
 

tinpanalley

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Jul 13, 2011
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i was showing you how i keep my SSDs from loosing data over time due to lack of power, which SSDs will do


I understand what you were doing, I just don't understand the actual chain of backups you've created and how it works.

There's a HDD in my computer with content to backup, and I can buy two more hdds. What next?
 
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Charlie98

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Nov 6, 2011
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I'm sorry, I don't think I get your method. It's really not you, I'm just not getting it. How do you rotate an external drive INTO your system?

I use Seagate external, USB-powered portable drives. They simply plug into a USB port on your computer. They are, quite simply, laptop drives in an enclosure with a USB cable as the interface.

I have two plugged into my PC always, and rotate a third one in every 2 weeks or so, update it, and put it back into the safe.

I have approximately 300GB of music, video and photo that I have backed up in this manner. I have... accidentally... deleted my main photo file. After socking myself in the head for being so stupid, I just copy and pasted one of the other 5 copies of that file back on my desktop and was back in business. I have also had my main OS drive die on me... with the Acronis backup images I generate every night, it was a simple task to install a new SSD, boot into the Acronis CD, and mount the backup image... I was back in business in, quite literally, 20 minutes.
 
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tinpanalley

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Jul 13, 2011
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I use Seagate external, USB-powered portable drives. They simply plug into a USB port on your computer. They are, quite simply, laptop drives in an enclosure with a USB cable as the interface.
I have two plugged into my PC always, and rotate a third one in every 2 weeks or so, update it, and put it back into the safe.
Ok, so two external 2.5s are constantly connected and being powered. I'm not crazy about having to have them powered all the time. Even if I leave them connected all the time, do you have some kind of cloning software or something that mirrors everything you do in the main drive? How do you you update what is done to the main media drive?
I have also had my main OS drive die on me... with the Acronis backup images I generate every night, it was a simple task to install a new SSD, boot into the Acronis CD, and mount the backup image... I was back in business in, quite literally, 20 minutes.
I now have Acronis. So it doesn't get in your way while you're working having the system backup happening EVERY night?
 

BSim500

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Jun 5, 2013
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Probably the best single point I've heard. This is undeniably true, of course and impossible to argue. And of course, I was in fact asking, because I wanted to know whether this SSD potency talked about online was really at a point of being able to replace HDDs long term.

Yeah there's a lot of marketing talk. I don't think they're going to replace HDD's anytime soon for actual backup usage. SSD endurance tests have occurred, but almost no-one is doing "cold storage" data retention tests. As a "working" drive, SSD's are generally reliable because part of the background maintenance of an SSD will correct / rewrite any data which is getting hard to read. That's how the "fix" for the Samsung 840/EVO drives works. With MLC you've got 4x voltage states 0v, 33%, 66% and 100% of whatever voltage is used. With TLC, you've got 8 (0v, 14%, 29%, 44%, 58%, 72%, 86%, 100%). With the latter, the "gap" between each state is much less. The smaller the cells used (40nm, 25nm, 19nm, 16nm, etc), the fewer electrons hold that state, and the greater risk there is of one voltage "drifting" into another. This will be more likely to occur in an "offline" drive where no power = no checking & rewriting of "borderline" data. The only vague figures I've found was related to the Samsung 840 debacle. Basically, 40 weeks for 21nm TLC and as little as 8 weeks for 16nm TLC. MLC will last longer, as will larger cell sizes (eg, 40nm V-NAND), but again, no actual solid figures are available for MLC vs TLC drives in general or Samsung's new 40nm 3D process. Personally I don't like TLC drives at all. There are just too many unknowns.

1. So, I should cycle the content of the one currently in use every two years? So, A(in use) copy to B, B > C, C > A? Is that the idea?
The "rewrite every 2 years" was just a simple example of what you could do with multiple backup drives to make absolutely sure. If you've only got one backup drive, then there's a risk (if small) of losing everything every time you plug it in. I have hard disks with 5 year old data and a relative's laptop had 8 year old data with no readability problems. You don't need to rewrite data literally every 2 years, it's just that by cycling them, the content will never be older than 4 years on any drive (or 2 years if you did it annually) and you'll always have one drive that's totally unplugged when the other two are plugged in. Maybe that sounds paranoid, but I knew a guy who swore blind his 4x drive RAID1 NAS was super-safe (same data mirrored on 4 drives) - until an indirect lightning strike took it (and all 4 drives) out with a surge that blew straight through his surge protector... Since then I've always made sure at least one backup drive is totally offline whilst the others are connected. Aside from surge / electrical problems, it also safeguards against accidental deletions being "mirrored", viruses / "ransomware" / malware wiping stuff out, etc.

2. I'm assuming anti-static sleeves in a dry place isn't enough. Are there recognised storage cases/boxes etc for hdds to really sit for long times well? At least as safely as possible?
I haven't looked into this side of things, though I've had no problem keeping them in an anti-static bag inside a bubble wrap bag. As long as they're not subject to strong magnetic fields, vibration or temperature variations (don't keep them in an unheated garage/shed), there's little more you can do. From what I understand, modern "fluid bearing" HDD's don't tend to seize up unlike ye olde ball bearing spindle drives.

3. If storage is the primary use of these drives, is cache important?
You mean the cache on the HDD? For backup use, not really. You're essentially writing lots of different data once in a session, without re-reading anything.

I know people who work in radio, music, etc and HDDs and BD is still the way they archive their important material. BD for in house access, and HDDs in off-site storage servers.
I have additional BD-R backups for critical data. Yes, there are some junk media out there (especially "LTH" discs), and I've had "coasters" on all CD/DVD/BD optical types, but I also have +15 year old old CD-R & DVD-R's that are still readable today. If you're going that route : Buy a 25x spindle HTL premium brands BD-R (I use Panasonic), verify after burn, avoid dual-layer media, store in jewel cases or spindles (not paper sleeves or those "100+ CD wallets" that start to bend discs) then keep them in a dark place with little temperature variation (indoor cupboard, not an unheated garage), and they can last decades. Biggest frustration is burning a large media collection with them (500GB data = around 22x discs). OTOH, for unchanging data it only needs to be done once and the media is then separate from the reading drive.

Other advice: when backing up files, use some form of CRC compare utility to make sure it's been stored properly. I use Teracopy (free) and it's great. Does CRC check on source file whilst copying, then flushes cache / buffer, then reads back destination file and compares them. It can eliminate the possibility of "silent errors" (eg, faulty SATA / USB cables causing bit errors which don't always show up in Windows).
 

tinpanalley

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Jul 13, 2011
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That's how the "fix" for the Samsung 840/EVO drives works....The only vague figures I've found was related to the Samsung 840 debacle. Basically, 40 weeks for 21nm TLC and as little as 8 weeks for 16nm TLC.
Goodness...now I'm scared crapless. I run an 840 EVO 250GB as my C drive... How are people supposed to know these things? And I keep up with tech changes pretty well!

Since then I've always made sure at least one backup drive is totally offline whilst the others are connected. Aside from surge / electrical problems, it also safeguards against accidental deletions being "mirrored", viruses / "ransomware" / malware wiping stuff out, etc.
Ok, I definitely will be getting two HDDs. Maybe 1TB each. And I can tell you I have, more often than I care to admit, fallen victim to accidental deleting of content that was not only impossible to get but also had taken HOURS and HOURS to metatag. So, I don't like the idea of things being completely cloned in real time. Isn't there anything that I can do where I take drives A (main, work drive), B (also plugged in), C (sitting protected unplugged) and just force myself to be disciplined to run a monthly process of connecting the 'A' HDD and cloning it to the other two at that moment in time, and then cycling them to turn 'B' into the main drive, C becomes B, B becomes A? Something like that? Sorry, I've not done this before so I'm trying to invent something that considers what you guys have told me and falls within the realm of how I use my media.

If you're going that route : Buy a 25x spindle HTL premium brands BD-R (I use Panasonic)
I use Verbatim. But I'll admit I had started buying DL for the 50GB. I name them according to the video content they hold in a continuous numbered system. So "[GENRE]-001" and then I keep an excel worksheet of all of them to remember what's on them without loading and also to avoid having to write anything onto the discs themselves in impossibly small writing with who-knows-what effect of months old Sharpie on the physical disk.

Other advice: when backing up files, use some form of CRC compare utility to make sure it's been stored properly. I use Teracopy (free) and it's great
I also use Teracopy. Love it.
 

tinpanalley

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Jul 13, 2011
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PS: HGST (Hitachi) were generally the most reliable according to Backblaze tests:-
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-reliability-q3-2015/
Whether or not their server use translates to light unpowered backup use is an unknown, but I replaced 3x family member's laptops recently (one 9 years old), all Hitachi drives, zero problems.
I sincerely wish I could get a couple of Hitachis but it starts to get pricey for me. So, I guess by that chart, some WD Reds (2TB) or WD Green (1TB) would be the next best?
 

BSim500

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Jun 5, 2013
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Goodness...now I'm scared crapless. I run an 840 EVO 250GB as my C drive... How are people supposed to know these things? And I keep up with tech changes pretty well!
Well the firmware fixes it (more of a workaround), but does by constantly rewriting data reducing endurance.

Isn't there anything that I can do where I take drives A (main, work drive), B (also plugged in), C (sitting protected unplugged) and just force myself to be disciplined to run a monthly process of connecting the 'A' HDD and cloning it to the other two at that moment in time, and then cycling them to turn 'B' into the main drive, C becomes B, B becomes A? Something like that? Sorry, I've not done this before so I'm trying to invent something that considers what you guys have told me and falls within the realm of how I use my media.
Depends on the data. For music (which once properly tagged never really changes), I often just do it manually, ie, in Explorer if your music is all sub-directories in one neat "Music" folder, right click and sort by date, then just copy over the newest ones. Or you could do use proper backup software and do "Differential" / "Incremental" backups. It's easier to setup a job that automates it, but I prefer manual as not all backup software CRC checks every file like Teracopy does.

I use Verbatim. But I'll admit I had started buying DL for the 50GB.
I tried a couple of 50GB BD-RE DL once. When I tested them 6 months later, initially they appeared to be fine (doing a few random file comparison tests). But once I hit files stored on the 2nd layer, read speeds plummeted and a few threw up errors. In tools like Opti Drive Control, PIE's (Parity Inner Errors) plus focus / tracking, etc, statistics are much worse on the 2nd layer. Since then I've just stuck with single-layer discs. It means more discs burned, but with high density "Amaray" cases (4-6 discs in a regular DVD size case) or simply reusing 25-50x spindles when burning a large set, they don't take up that much room. If you've gotten dual-layer to work then great, but personally I won't use them for archival stuff.

I guess by that chart, some WD Reds (2TB) or WD Green (1TB) would be the next best?
Yeah they're not bad drives. Reds are generally better as they tend to come with less aggressive default head parking settings (which may increase drive life span for constantly plugged in drives), though there is a utility somewhere that can change it on both.
 

tinpanalley

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Jul 13, 2011
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I often just do it manually, ie, in Explorer if your music is all sub-directories in one neat "Music" folder, right click and sort by date, then just copy over the newest ones.
I am extraordinarily meticulous about how I organise my folders (which is one reason why I can't find a single media playing program that works with my nomenclature and folders, another topic for another day) The problem with that is I'll often have any number of folders being worked on so it's not as simple as using Explorer to see what the newer files are. Plus, I'd rather be able to let a program determine what's changed and update it. Just have to find one I can trust enough to know it won't skip any sub-sub-sub folders, I guess?
If you've gotten dual-layer to work then great, but personally I won't use them for archival stuff.
I'm learning a lot from you... I'll read more into this layers problem. Very interesting.
Reds are generally better...
I had heard reds were only for NAS and CCTV camera setups, and that greens were annoying because the whole "green" element was to conserve energy by stopping spinning but in this case, it's fine because they're only backup drives, right?
Reds are generally better
Any particular Toshiba? Any thoughts on the WD20EZRX WD Green Caviar? The thing is the 2TB of that is more affordable for me than the WD20EFRX WD Red I can also get here on Amazon.
 
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