My ~$2000 Build

[mnewsham]

Did you miss the part where he already has $200-250 speakers? You think a mechanical keyboard will increase his typing speed from 60 to 120 WPM?

I love how people with continue to claim they can't tell the difference between a $70 dedicated sound card and onboard sound. Cleaned the was in your ears lately?

So you are saying that me with my Headroom Ultra desktop AMP, Denon AH-D5000's and Grado GS1000i's have no idea about the quality of sound equipment? He spent 200-250 bucks on speakers yes, but qualitywise they arent worth that much (think 100 bucks maybe)

 

[mnewsham]

I also hate how you edit your post about 6 times and add stuff instead of posting another comment. (or finishing what you are typing and THEN posting it)

 

[RussianSensation]

So you are saying that me with my Headroom Ultra desktop AMP, Denon AH-D5000's and Grado GS1000i's have no idea about the quality of sound equipment? He spent 200-250 bucks on speakers yes, but qualitywise they arent worth that much (think 100 bucks maybe)

It amazes me more that you you have all this equipment and yet you claim there is hardly any difference between onboard sound and the Xonar.

I also hate how you edit your post about 6 times and add stuff instead of posting another comment. (or finishing what you are typing and THEN posting it)

I find it's more productive to keep the information in 1 post rather than have 5-6 posts crowding the forum. Also, english is not my first language. As such, it often makes it difficult for me to produce a coherent sentence without editing. Sorry.

 

[mnewsham]

It amazes me more that you you have all this equipment and yet you claim there is hardly any difference between onboard sound and the Xonar.

That's because with my equipment there is a difference but as I said his speakers honestly do not need it. And the Xonar is a pretty crappy AMP/DAC anyway.

I find it's more productive to keep the information in 1 post rather than have 5-6 posts crowding the forum. Also, english is not my first language. As such, it often makes it difficult for me to produce a coherent sentence without editing. Sorry.

No need to clutter the forum with 5-6 posts but proof reading and rewriting before clicking the submit reply button is useful and helps avoid confusion later.

 

[ieatdonuts]

Likewise I can say that 120 hz monitor is essential to a computer. But some people out there say they can't tell a difference. And if they can't, there's nothing I can do about that.

Let people do whatever they prefer

 

[RussianSensation]

That's because with my equipment there is a difference but as I said his speakers honestly do not need it. And the Xonar is a pretty crappy AMP/DAC anyway.

Sound Card

From TechReport's review:

"Despite these changes, the DX lives up to the performance standard set by its predecessor. The card's sound quality is nothing short of exceptional, and more impressively, it was indistinguishable from that of the Xonar D2X in both blind listening tests and in RightMark Audio Analyzer's objective measure of signal quality."

If you want TI Burr Brown DACs used on the Essence or say D2X, you'll need to shell out $200+. Obviously the DX isn't going to be exactly as good as the $200 Essence, but he isn't using headphones anyway. For $70, it's an amazing sound card and a huge step up from onboard sound.

Speakers

The satellites, which use ATX12V-style 4-pin connectors, are large and heavy, sporting separate tweeters and 3in mid-range drivers. One particularly interesting feature is that the satellites are bi-amplified, with each mid-range driver and tweeter having independent amplifiers. The SP2500 speakers are without doubt the best PC speakers we've heard. ~ BitTech

Even on my Logitech's the difference in sound between P55 onboard and a $50 X-Fi is huge; and that's even with 256-320 kbps MP3s. If I am listening to FLAC, then it's not even comparable.

Many audiophiles agree that it's in the first $200-500 that you get the largest difference in audio quality from stock offerings. I mean you realize your Denon's aren't 2x better than the AKG 702s and those cost half? It's interesting how you spent $500 on the amp and $500+ on the Denon 5000 but yet are discouraging him to spend $70 on an awesome sound card that he will use for 3-5 years. Sounds to me you don't think investing in audio equipment is worth it unless you go almost all and get nearly top-of-the line setup in the $1000 range?

Guess what, some $190 headphones are world's better for an iPod vs. stock headphones. Are those also not worth spending money on because they are not LCD-2s and don't come with a dedicated AMP?

 

[mfenn]

Look, I have always used onboard sound because I have continued to read on our boards that it's "just as good/good enough". People who appreciate good sound quality will need a dedicated sound card. When I got the X-Fi and I plugged it in (set the Crystalizer on) , I couldn't believe the difference. I even had my friends come over and toggled on-board sound vs. X-Fi and they all were extremely impressed.

So you've substituted placebo with placebo and groupthink. Do a proper double-blinded test and get back to me. I'm glad that you find the preset equalizer settings in the Xonar appealing. That doesn't mean that it is any better or more accurate than the onboard sound though.

$250 speakers systems have cheap speakers. If you have good speakers (i.e. the kind that are priced individually), you are shelling out enough cash to make the thought of sticking a subpar DAC/AMP combo in a noisy electrical environment laughable.

OP, I second the 6950 2GB recommendation for the GPU. :thumbsup:

 

[RussianSensation]

So you've substituted placebo with placebo and groupthink. Do a proper double-blinded test and get back to me. I'm glad that you find the preset equalizer settings in the Xonar appealing. That doesn't mean that it is any better or more accurate than the onboard sound though.

$250 speakers systems have cheap speakers.

Here we go - another audiophile who claims that having less than $1000 of audio equipment means a dedicated sound card will provide no discernable difference in audio quality. Let me guess you have a Wilson Audio setup in your living room, won't listen to anything less than Senns HD800 on your portable media player and you paid $6000 for the Bang & Olufsen Audi sound system upgrade?

I am using X-Fi, not Xonar. I invited my friends over and toggled between onboard sound and my dedicated sound card. They all couldn't believe how much better my X-Fi was once I enabled the Crystaliser and Surround Xpand mode. My computer speakers are nothing special and they sound a magnitude of times better with the X-Fi.

The Xonar allows you to tweak 27 EQ and Bass settings. The FlexBass feature allows for bass adjustments from 50HZ to 250HZ for those looking for more bass impact. You say this is useless?

You want scientific testing? Here you go:
http://hothardware.com/Reviews/ASUS-Xonar-DX-PCI-Express-71-Audio-Card/?page=4

"The goal with the ASUS Xonar DX is to offer better audio quality than common integrated audio and these metrics show that when it comes to overall quality, the Xonar DX is definitely a huge improvement." - HotHardware

The Xonar DX blows away onboard audio in every parameter.

Ok how about this, let the OP order the Xonar for $70. Let him test it back to back with onboard sound and tell us if he finds any sound differences in favour of the Xonar. If he doesn't find any of these:

1) Much improved bass response/quality of bass (i.e., vs. muddled bass on integrated);
2) Much improved clarity / additional detail of sound in sound tracks;
3) Much improved 'fullness' to the sound;
4) He'll be able to turn up the sound volume to much higher levels while still retaining clarity / maintaining lower distortion;
5) Much superior spatial orientation in games as well as with DVDs.

I'll send you $100. And if he does you'll send me $100.

I am willing to take this bet because I know that any decent dedicated sound card is far superior to onboard sound and the sound improvement will show even in a $150 set of speakers. Even objective testing with Rightmark Audio Analyzer 6.0.6 showed this.

There are plenty of people who report that a dedicated Xonar sound card makes a huge difference even on sub $250 speakers (which according to you is a 'laughable' set of speakers).

"The sound quality is incredible, when used with headphones costing upwards of $50 US you really notice the difference. It is indeed like magic never can I go back to onboard sound, the detail and bass you experience is phenomenal"

52% of Newegg reviewers gave it 5/5 stars. All 132 of these people are wrong?

Plug in a DVD movie or game which supports surround sound signals. Most current on-board audio cards are unable to generate 5.1 or 7.1 signals of their own from a stereo signal, unlike a comparable dedicated card.

 

[mnewsham]

Here we go - another audiophile who claims that having less than $1000 of audio equipment means a dedicated sound card will provide no discernable difference in audio quality. Let me guess you have a Wilson Audio setup in your living room, won't listen to anything less than Senns HD800 on your portable media player and you paid $6000 for the Bang & Olufsen Audi sound system upgrade?

I am using X-Fi, not Xonar. I invited my friends over and toggled between onboard sound and my dedicated sound card. They all couldn't believe how much better my X-Fi was once I enabled the Crystaliser and Surround Xpand mode. My computer speakers are nothing special and they sound a magnitude of times better with the X-Fi.

The Xonar allows you to tweak 27 EQ and Bass settings. The FlexBass feature allows for bass adjustments from 50HZ to 250HZ for those looking for more bass impact. You say this is useless?

You want scientific testing? Here you go:
http://hothardware.com/Reviews/ASUS-Xonar-DX-PCI-Express-71-Audio-Card/?page=4

"The goal with the ASUS Xonar DX is to offer better audio quality than common integrated audio and these metrics show that when it comes to overall quality, the Xonar DX is definitely a huge improvement." - HotHardware

The Xonar DX blows away onboard audio in every parameter.

Ok how about this, let the OP order the Xonar for $70. Let him test it back to back with onboard sound and tell us if he finds any sound differences in favour of the Xonar. If he doesn't find any of these:

1) Much improved bass response/quality of bass (i.e., vs. muddled bass on integrated);
2) Much improved clarity / additional detail of sound in sound tracks;
3) Much improved 'fullness' to the sound;
4) He'll be able to turn up the sound volume to much higher levels while still retaining clarity / maintaining lower distortion;
5) Much superior spatial orientation in games as well as with DVDs.

I'll send you $100. And if he does you'll send me $100.

I am willing to take this bet because I know that any decent dedicated sound card is far superior to onboard sound and the sound improvement will show even in a $150 set of speakers. Even objective testing with Rightmark Audio Analyzer 6.0.6 showed this.

There are plenty of people who report that a dedicated Xonar sound card makes a huge difference even on sub $250 speakers (which according to you is a 'laughable' set of speakers).

"The sound quality is incredible, when used with headphones costing upwards of $50 US you really notice the difference. It is indeed like magic never can I go back to onboard sound, the detail and bass you experience is phenomenal"

52% of Newegg reviewers gave it 5/5 stars. All 132 of these people are wrong?

Plug in a DVD movie or game which supports surround sound signals. Most current on-board audio cards are unable to generate 5.1 or 7.1 signals of their own from a stereo signal, unlike a comparable dedicated card.

Make it interesting do a double blind study properly and find significant differences and i will paypal you 500 bucks


Just to clear things up we are talking about analog inputs right? Not digital?

 

[Bustinthejus]

Alright so I've made a new build... I've opted to go for a sound card since for the most part people seem to hear an improvement in the sound, and to be honest on my onboard sound right now, music sounds a little muddy even though these speakers as supposed to be crispy clear.

Anyways, here's my new build:

Which puts me at $2312.65. If I can bump it down closer to $2200 that would be great, but if not, I could live with this. Mainly looking for best bang for my buck, so if there's any parts that are cheaper with minor performance loss, or any better parts for the same price, I'd love to hear them!

 

[mfenn]

I am using X-Fi, not Xonar. I invited my friends over and toggled between onboard sound and my dedicated sound card. They all couldn't believe how much better my X-Fi was once I enabled the Crystaliser and Surround Xpand mode. My computer speakers are nothing special and they sound a magnitude of times better with the X-Fi.

Please read my posts. I explicitly stated that I was happy that you found the preset equalizer settings pleasing. That does not mean that applying them makes your sound card superior. All it means is that they provide some software that amplifies some frequencies at the expense of others (i.e. an equalizer). You could do the same thing with any decent media player software.

It's the exact same concept as an oversaturated TV in a store drawing more attention. People are naturally attracted to loud and bright things. It is not better or more faithful to the original source.

Ok how about this, let the OP order the Xonar for $70. Let him test it back to back with onboard sound and tell us if he finds any sound differences in favour of the Xonar. If he doesn't find any of these:

1) Much improved bass response/quality of bass (i.e., vs. muddled bass on integrated);
2) Much improved clarity / additional detail of sound in sound tracks;
3) Much improved 'fullness' to the sound;
4) He'll be able to turn up the sound volume to much higher levels while still retaining clarity / maintaining lower distortion;
5) Much superior spatial orientation in games as well as with DVDs.

I'll send you $100. And if he does you'll send me $100.

LOL, no. I am not wasting $100 on a completely non-scientific test. I don't know how to even define "fullness", much less objectively measure it.

Please read my posts. My point never was that people don't think that their $70 made a difference. My point is that the difference is due to the placebo effect.

(which according to you is a 'laughable' set of speakers).

Seriously, you need to read my posts before coming up with this nonsense.

I never said $250 speakers are "laughable". I said they are cheap. There is nothing wrong with buying a $250 set of speakers if that's what you can afford/are willing to spend.

What I actually said was "...shelling out the cash to make the thought of sticking a subpar DAC/AMP combo in a noisy electrical environment laughable." Which it is.

 

[mfenn]

Just to clear things up we are talking about analog inputs right? Not digital?

That would be the only thing that could make this even more hilarious.

 

[mfenn]

Mainly looking for best bang for my buck, so if there's any parts that are cheaper with minor performance loss, or any better parts for the same price, I'd love to hear them!

There are a few places where you can save money in that list.

- RAM: Mushkin Silverline DDR3 1333 $43
- Sound card: You know the deal
- GPU: 6870 $150 AR
- Mobo: GA-Z68A-D3H $120

 

[Davidh373]

Ok Russian, you need to chill man.

There are a few places where you can save money in that list.

- RAM: Mushkin Silverline DDR3 1333 $43
- Sound card: You know the deal
- GPU: 6870 $150 AR
- Mobo: GA-Z68A-D3H $120

These are all good recommendations.

 

[RussianSensation]

Please read my posts. My point never was that people don't think that their $70 made a difference. My point is that the difference is due to the placebo effect.

What about scientific testing where the Xonar blew away the onboard sound in every parameter imaginable:
http://hothardware.com/Reviews/ASUS-Xonar-DX-PCI-Express-71-Audio-Card/?page=4

Ok Russian, you need to chill man.

I just think it's misleading to claim that onboard sound is just as good as a dedicated sound card. These claims were made 10 years ago, 5 years ago and continue to be made without any basis of truth. If there was no difference whatsoever, the entire dedicated sound card market would have completely disappeared, and yet here we are with Creative, M-Audio, HT | OMEGA and Asus sound cards. Are all the consumers buying these cards paying $70-200 because of "placebo" effect?

I am sure some people will claim that they can't tell the difference between 128 kbps MP3 and FLAC, console and PC graphics, normally aspirated and turbo-charged engine response, Hershey and Godiva chocolate, 480P and 1080P video feed, a snow and a summer tire - that doesn't mean those differences don't exist and that they can't be measured.

It's perfectly acceptable that some people just don't value good sound, so they have no interest in spending $70-200 for a dedicated sound card, especially when those funds can be allocated towards a faster CPU / GPU / SSD. Still, that doesn't make it a fact to claim that a dedicated sound card makes 0 difference.

Here is a nice review that goes over the features of the Xonar DX.

 

[skipsneeky2]

I can tell the difference between onboard and a quality chip.

Last 775 i had hosted a asus x48 rampage formula with the supreme xfi chip and that chip to me is worlds better then even this up to date realtek 2 years later.

Never spent over $30 on a pair of headphones and i could tell the difference so just imagine how much better the newer asus soundcards are and the soundblasters:thumbsup:

Heck im buying either the titanium or the hd myself for BF3 to compliment my z506 5.1 so Op i say go for the soundcard

 

[mfenn]

Russian, you seem to have a hard time following my argument. I'm going to attempt to make it as simple as possible for you:

(a) I've never claimed that there are no technical differences between discrete and onboard sound solutions. What I am claiming is that with a scientific double-blind test, with all variables controlled as much as possible, including equalizer settings, that a listener will not be able to reliably tell a difference on typical computer speakers

(b) If a person has a speaker setup that can bring out the flaws in onboard sound, then they would be better served by getting a proper DAC/amp combo with (a) better fidelity than a PC sound card, and (b) that's located in a place with less EMI than the inside of a computer case.