My brilliant(ly obvious) theory for why income inequality is utterly inevitable

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
I've been mulling over articles and statistics for a few months and have this half-assed theory on why greater income inequality is inevitable. Please comment and tell me how wrong I am.

As our economies employ more "knowledge workers" and less labour-intensive positions, intelligence becomes the limiting factor for whether a person lives paycheque-to-paycheque or comfortably above six figures. The above average in intelligence will see their particular talents rewarded handsomely the further the services/knowledge economy develops while the majority of the population sees their wages stagnate or, at best, stay level.

Here's the BLS's chart of private sector gross job gains and losses by industry, seasonally adjusted. Finance and IT have taken a large hit, but they're emerged relatively unscathed compared to construction, manufacturing and goods producers. That's whether you look at the raw numbers or as a percentage.

The second half of this lame theory comes from a maxim we all learned in childhood: When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Thus, companies are busily making use of the current state of the economy as a convenient reason to cut underperforming and easily made redundant staff. (The "excuse" of the poor economy is particularly useful in countries like Canada where terminating workers is not a straightforward process.) These companies are not turning around and hiring younger, smarter or faster workers to replace those on their way out - they're automating, pushing more work upon fewer people or simply doing without. Of course, this is their perogative: The corporation's goal is not to employ, but to reap profit.

The end result is an ever-shrinking pool of employed who stay that way by possessing skills and knowledge that is not easily automated or done without. Because of how small that pool of workers is, they will have the ability to command ever greater salaries. Everyone not in that esteemed labour pool stagnates.

Long term, I can only see this issue being solved in one of three ways.

Solution #1: Eugenics. Make the population smarter. (Which it is getting, despite what you'd think - but we may need to speed up the process.) Make most everyone a useful employee. Of course it takes more than sheer intelligence coded into your genes to be a productive member of society, but the lack of that intelligence is nearly a veto against a person.

Solution #2: Income redistribution on an unprecedented scale. The top 20% giving half of their annual salary via taxes to the bottom 80%.

Solution #3: Extreme interventionist and protectionist economic policies. This must be done as a coordinated global effort to work. Making it equally as expensive to automate or use foreign labour will give corporations an incentive to employ locals.

Note: Don't read too much into how anything above is phrased. I'm not advocating any of them - they all have massive downsides. I just don't see alternatives. But maybe I've got everything wrong to begin with.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Wealth disparity is as old as specialization and the concept of wealth. In fourteenth century Europe 20 percent of the population owned 80 percent of the wealth. Go back farther and you can find even higher levels of disparity; great societal disruptions tend to periodically level out wealth distribution, but the disparity always comes back because while people are born equal, they seldom stay that way.

Today we fight to level out this trend by indirect wealth redistribution, via such things as tax-funded education and minimum wage and anti-discrimination laws. I totally support these things because they give those disadvantaged by birth circumstances incentive and means to better themselves and therefore society. We are also increasingly getting into direct wealth redistribution, where government seizes some wealth and merely gives it to someone else. I am completely against that as it provides a disincentive for the recipient to better himself, therefore worsening and impoverishing society. If we are going to institutionalize theft (taxes) - and that's the only way to have a modern society - then let's restrict our methods to those that benefit society.

I'm for protectionist policies against foreign competition to a large degree, because without wealth-producing jobs such as manufacturing our society must inevitably bleed wealth. Either we recover our manufacturing, we learn to live without material goods, or we crash when everything we can sell off to foreigners has been sold and our credit cards are maxed out. It's a race to the bottom. I'm against protectionist policies against automation even though it has the same effect of increasing wealth disparity because it also increases total societal wealth.

And Eugenics scare me. I think it's far more likely that we would be managed for a lower intelligence and increased tractability. But even if we were managed for humanity's benefit, you can't be selectively bred or managed and retain freedom.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
There is a second feature to the income equality. The ability to distribute the product a person "generates." A musician makes a song, and it can be duplicated and sent to everyone in the world easily. Each person who buys the song pays $1 for this service, and the musician makes 20 Million. A teacher teaches students, each student pays on average $1,500 dollars for this service, and the teacher makes 60 thousand. If you think about how much athletes, actors, and musicians make, they are probably a good portion of the skewing of income equality towards the top 1%. CEO's and fund managers are the other part, but they get the same benefit of their work being "distributable," along with several other factors that are a lot less honest.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
If you want income equality lower the annual wages for the president and congress and all federal jobs.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
It isn't possible for everyone to have equal income, if it were you couldn't spend money. The act of giving money to someone creates an imbalance. The longer the process occurs the greater the imbalance will become. You can slow it down but never stop it.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,547
2,759
136
The income gap isn't about intelligence, at least not completely. There are lots of very smart people making next to nothing and lots of very dumb people pulling in tons of money. It's more about work ethic. The income disparity exists, and continues to grow, because Americans are lazy ass SOBs and just keep getting lazier.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
The income gap isn't about intelligence, at least not completely. There are lots of very smart people making next to nothing and lots of very dumb people pulling in tons of money. It's more about work ethic. The income disparity exists, and continues to grow, because Americans are lazy ass SOBs and just keep getting lazier.
Work ethic matters, but not as much as the ability to manipulate people.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,720
6,201
126
And Eugenics scare me. I think it's far more likely that we would be managed for a lower intelligence and increased tractability. But even if we were managed for humanity's benefit, you can't be selectively bred or managed and retain freedom.

So true. You evolved via natural selection and as a result you are stuck in this pathetic compromise that recapitulates phylogeny just to have a child.

It really sucks, and think of all the junk in your DNA.
 

TheDoc9

Senior member
May 26, 2006
264
0
0
There is a second feature to the income equality. The ability to distribute the product a person "generates." A musician makes a song, and it can be duplicated and sent to everyone in the world easily. Each person who buys the song pays $1 for this service, and the musician makes 20 Million. A teacher teaches students, each student pays on average $1,500 dollars for this service, and the teacher makes 60 thousand. If you think about how much athletes, actors, and musicians make, they are probably a good portion of the skewing of income equality towards the top 1%. CEO's and fund managers are the other part, but they get the same benefit of their work being "distributable," along with several other factors that are a lot less honest.


This, and I would add that the more 'honest' and certainly the harder you word - then the less likely you are to achieve material wealth. It's those that outsmart and take advantage of their peers that tend to reach the top financially.

Money is inherently evil and will draw to it those of the like.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
IMHO, the increase in income and wealth inequality is a result of the boom/bust cycle. The wealthy do very well during the booms, while the poor and middle class are getting back on their feet from the previous bust. Unemployment (and underemployment) during the bust is very painful for the lower and middle classes, and much less so for the wealthy. Don't believe me, go look at unemployment numbers by class.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
IMHO, the increase in income and wealth inequality is a result of the boom/bust cycle. The wealthy do very well during the booms, while the poor and middle class are getting back on their feet from the previous bust. Unemployment (and underemployment) during the bust is very painful for the lower and middle classes, and much less so for the wealthy. Don't believe me, go look at unemployment numbers by class.
I agree. We should ban fractional reserve banking as there was very limited inequalities of wealth from the time Jackson left office until Lincon came into office.

I also think laziness more than lack of intelligence causes income inequality. People need to find out what they're best at and make a living off of it.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
I'm gonna assume you're not silly enough to be suggesting there's people out there that believe in complete income equality (that is to say, a GINI coefficient of 0).

So what is it that you're actually arguing against? When is a country too equal? When is it too unequal? What should we strive towards? Sweden? Netherlands? US? South Africa?
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
If you want income equality lower the annual wages for the president and congress and all federal jobs.
I would love to see the FBI completely staffed by teenagers. :awe:


There's no way to stop income inequality. All one can do is use the government as a tool for preventing it from going too unequal. Example: USA does not have serfs. Serfs were the norm just a couple hundred years ago.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,547
2,759
136
I would love to see the FBI completely staffed by teenagers. :awe:

QFT. True income equality would not be an uplifting event for society, it would be a race to the bottom. Why strive for improvement if there is no gain?
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,653
10,517
136
If you want income equality lower the annual wages for the president and congress and all federal jobs.

Yea, that .0000000001 percent of the budget will fix everything. Couldn't possibly be the CEO's making 400 times the pay of the people who are making there profit for them being a major part of the problem.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
QFT. True income equality would not be an uplifting event for society, it would be a race to the bottom. Why strive for improvement if there is no gain?
The good part about income equality is that people will go to the jobs they are attracted to.
The bad part is that it would be impossible to get people to work at jobs they hate.

People hating their jobs is where a lot of the money is made. Guys working 12 hour days on the oil rigs around here earn more money than most professional engineers. It's the worst job ever, but it gets done because it pays so well.
 

Generator

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
793
0
0
This whole year has been one of collusion by big business. I agree that the economy is being used as a excuse to make cuts all the while record cash amounts are piling within companies. Its an arms race of cash that will have to explode when somebody flinches. The flinch could be greed, inventiveness, market share grab, and more. Its still capitalism folks, people are still trying to win out there. Its just been halftime.

Of course automation is a key to the job cuts but also people who have kept their jobs are working even harder. I suppose you could break someone, wear them out, and replace. But will your competitor do the same? Why not just hire someone to grab more market share? 2011 is going to be a great year. Companies will spend cash simply out of boredom. Billions in cash on the balance sheet is frivolous and wasteful. All this economy needs is certainty. Get these taxes figured out before the new year and just watch the fucking economy boom!
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
81
People hating their jobs is where a lot of the money is made. Guys working 12 hour days on the oil rigs around here earn more money than most professional engineers. It's the worst job ever, but it gets done because it pays so well.

Wait...you mean to say that basic supply and demand really does work in the labor market? HOLY SHIT STOP THE PRESSES!
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
The income gap isn't about intelligence, at least not completely. There are lots of very smart people making next to nothing and lots of very dumb people pulling in tons of money. It's more about work ethic. The income disparity exists, and continues to grow, because Americans are lazy ass SOBs and just keep getting lazier.

I'm talking about the rule, not the exception - especially going forward another twenty or forty years. The theory is that the more "knowledge based" our economy gets, the less the average person can contribute.

IMHO, the increase in income and wealth inequality is a result of the boom/bust cycle. The wealthy do very well during the booms, while the poor and middle class are getting back on their feet from the previous bust. Unemployment (and underemployment) during the bust is very painful for the lower and middle classes, and much less so for the wealthy. Don't believe me, go look at unemployment numbers by class.

This makes sense to me. I just wonder if there's also an overall trend at work as automation becomes more capable and less expensive.

I'm gonna assume you're not silly enough to be suggesting there's people out there that believe in complete income equality (that is to say, a GINI coefficient of 0).

So what is it that you're actually arguing against? When is a country too equal? When is it too unequal? What should we strive towards? Sweden? Netherlands? US? South Africa?

No argument is being made. I think we're seeing a level of general dissatisfaction in the populace that I've not seen before in my lifetime and I attribute much of that to the sentiment that some people are cashing in while others starve (posters to this thread have said almost exactly as much). Before I can think of solutions I have to decide on causes, and this was my first guess.

If pressed for a solution I'd say the ones with the fewest downsides are all based around improving education. Remove the fiscal barrier to entry to college (government subsidies). Remove the summer break and spread some of those days off throughout the year - better knowledge retention. Perhaps also job-sharing a la Germany and incentives for companies to provide useful internships.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
This makes sense to me. I just wonder if there's also an overall trend at work as automation becomes more capable and less expensive.

Theoretically speaking, this shouldn't make a difference in the long run. Automation makes products cheaper. So consumers can buy the same products and have money left over to buy other products that they otherwise would not have. So we would have less people employed making the first product because of the automation, but we would have more people employed elsewhere producing the other products people are now buying. Of course in the real world this isn't so simple, but in the long run, it shouldn't make a significant difference.

Actually, I can give you an example of how automation can increase employment. Way back in the day before computers were affordable, market research was done with pen and paper. Oh, and a telephone. However, since PC's became cheaper, we started using them and programming the surveys. The result was not less people employed as interviewers or even employed as staff. Because research was now cheaper to do, and more importantly, more complex and more efficient, because of the automation, demand for research has increased quite well. Same thing with the automobile. Automation made cars cheaper, so they were in higher demand, and more people were employed producing them.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
1,594
126
Your theory falls apart when you assume some correlation between intelligence and earning money. Anyone who works full time and is over thirty, knows this is patently false.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
lets experiment. Lets take all the money in the US. divide it equally. How many years will it be before we see massive "inequity"?

Anyone or any ideology that purports to work towards equal outcomes is doomed to failure.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
We are also increasingly getting into direct wealth redistribution, where government seizes some wealth and merely gives it to someone else. I am completely against that as it provides a disincentive for the recipient to better himself, therefore worsening and impoverishing society.

I take it you're referring to estate taxes. How is it a greater disincentive to the people the govt gives it to than to the designated heirs?

I'd suggest that the inheritance of vast wealth might be the greatest disincentive of all.

Having a small amount of wealth, enough to be a stakeholder in society, is probably a very large incentive, indeed.

And it really isn't that the govt gives away much money, it's that they simply charge some people more, because those people obviously get more out of society, and because allowing people at the lower end to have a stake incents them as nothing else possibly can.

Inequality is obviously part of the human condition, but it wreaks havoc with societies and economies when it becomes too great, as it did in 1929, and again today. Here's Robert Reich's take on it-

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=130189031
 
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