My brother sold a car

[Mark R]

My brother had an oldish hyundai. While he had it the cast iron exhaust manifold cracked (a common problem with these cars), and the price of an OEM part was astronomical. As a result he found someone to make a custom stainless steel header and downpipe set, which was much cheaper. Unfortunately, due to the design, it was not possible to replace the cat, so it was removed and replaced with a pipe.

Over the next 2 years, the car passes its next 2 inspections, including emissions. At which point he sells it, advertising it as 'non-standard exhaust manifold'.

2 months later, the new buyer takes it for inspection and it fails marginally on emissions. He subsequently takes it to be investigated and repaired. The repair involves completely replacing the exhaust system with new OEM parts - a catalyst cannot be fitted to the headers, so a new manifold and downpipe had to be sourced, and the custom pipe had been welded to the rear section - so that also had to be replaced.

The new buyer, having been left with a bill for around $2500 then writes to my brother. He explains why the repair was so expensive, and that this was by far the cheapest quote he could find, and that he has sought legal advice, and that as the car was significantly different to advertised (i.e. no cat), asks very politely that my brother should make a contribution to the repair cost (suggesting that the rear exhaust was slightly damaged, and a repair would have been imminenet) but nevertheless the suggestion is that my brother should cough up about $2k.

I'm not really sure what to think. My brother thinks the buyer is just trying it on, and he hasn't got a hope of a case. I'm less sure.

However, I'm wondering what others views are.


(Not sure whether this should have gone in the garage forum - but the question is not particularly technical, so I thought here might be better).

 

[Shadowknight]

Generally if one's buying a car from an individual, they should get it checked out by a mechanic first. If the buyer didn't do this, it's on his head. If he did and the mechanic didn't notice an odd modification like this, then it's on the mechanic's head.

 

[Zolty]

Was the car sold with a bill of sale signed by both buyers? Did that bill of sale contain the sold as-is clause?

if yes, then your brother is fine.

 

[edmicman]

Didn't the buyer check his carfax report?

 

[KLin]

I wonder if your brother could get in trouble for having the cat removed in the first place. It's illegal in some states in the USA to remove the cat from a car that had one factory installed.

 

[bonkers325]

before he bought the car, he should have gotten it inspected to see if it is up to code. but your brother may also be at fault, because he did not explicitly say that there catalytic converter was removed.

get a lawyer

 

[amdskip]

What did the bill of sale state? If it said as is I'm pretty sure your brother has nothing to worry about.

 

[slimrhcp]

One can get aftermarket catalytic converters at pretty reasonable prices.

 

[Yreka]

In California, the seller is required to get a smog check (our states inspection requirement) before transferring the title. Ultimately, the seller is responsible for making sure the car is sound, emissions wise anyway.

I have no idea how things work over there, but my feeling is your brother is partially responsible. He advertised as a "non-standard" exhaust manifold, but it was missing a CAT completely. Not something one would easily notice, and should have at least been disclosed..

All IMO of course, I have no idea what would happen in court.

edit spelling

 

[MrWizzard]

There are a lot of things, it seems, that could have been done by your brother and the buyer to avoid this. That being said I don't think the buyer really has a case we would need more details to say better.

EDIT: The fact that you live in the UK makes it hard because each country and state has it's own rules about these things.

 

[Idontcare]

First question to ask yourself - does the current owner of the car have any PROOF that the car was modified specifically as they claim PRIOR to their purchasing the vehicle?

If there is no proof then the burdern to PROVE that the car was modified by the seller (and not by the buyer, afterwhich the buyer got screwed by emissions checkout and subsequently cooked up the theory that your brother modified the car in the first place) and NOT modified by the buyer BEFORE the emissions test was done and failed?

The current buyer would have to prove that he did not modify the car himself before the emissions test. This will be hard for the buyer to prove...unless your brother does something stupid and admits in writing the specific modifications he performed.

 

[dullard]

I believe in many places it is illegal to remove the cat, and illegal to sell a car intended for street use without the cat. If you are in one of those locations, your brother doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. Especially, since he didn't fully specify the modifications to the buyer.

How much is the vehicle worth? If it is old, is it worth spending $2500 on?

How much is legal hassle worth? Even if your brother successfully won in court, will it cost him double that in attorney fees?

He might just be best off buying the car back and selling it legally and fully disclosed.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: KLin
I wonder if your brother could get in trouble for having the cat removed in the first place. It's illegal in some states in the USA to remove the cat from a car that had one factory installed.

It's against federal law to remove the catalytic converter. While your brother stated that the manifold wasn't standard, he said nothing about the catalytic converter. Your brother's lucky it wasn't picked up on a visual inspection.

I'd believe that the buyer could win in small claims court, regardless of whether it said "as is" or not, simply based on the. I'm not sure though. Here's a similar question - anyone know the answer to this one? Suppose you buy a car "as is" and it's later determined by the police that your engine was stolen from another car - yours is impounded or whatever and the engine is returned to the original owner (or whatever they'd do.) While you wouldn't be held responsible for possession of stolen property, and in addition to any legal charges that may be filed against the people who put the stolen engine in there, would you have any financial recourse against them?

IANAL, but I'd think that even if it's sold "as is", it's a reasonable expectation that the seller hasn't intentionally violated any federal laws in the modifications of the vehicle.

Otherwise, here's a cheap way for companies to get rid of toxic waste: put it in the trunks of cars and sell the cars "as is."


oh, btw, I'm moving this thread to the garage.

 

[akshatp]

I was going to ask the same thing Dullard asked. How much could an "oldish Hyundai" really be worth? How much did he sell the car for?

And your brother could possibly get into trouble in some states for removing the cat in the first place. But the buyer would have to prove that it was removed before he purchased it.

 

[fbrdphreak]

++ on the bill of sale with "as-is" clause and the stupidity of your brother for not putting a cat in. You can get cheap universal cats and just have them welded fairly close to the manifold/header - voila, you're not a polluting scumbag

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Otherwise, here's a cheap way for companies to get rid of toxic waste: put it in the trunks of cars and sell the cars "as is."

That has been tried before. Ok, toxic is a bit of a stretch, but same idea.

 

[ViviTheMage]

its up to the buyer... IMO.

your brother doesn't need to pay a dime.

 

[Yreka]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: KLin
I wonder if your brother could get in trouble for having the cat removed in the first place. It's illegal in some states in the USA to remove the cat from a car that had one factory installed.

It's against federal law to remove the catalytic converter. While your brother stated that the manifold wasn't standard, he said nothing about the catalytic converter. Your brother's lucky it wasn't picked up on a visual inspection.

IANAL, but I'd think that even if it's sold "as is", it's a reasonable expectation that the seller hasn't intentionally violated any federal laws in the modifications of the vehicle.

Otherwise, here's a cheap way for companies to get rid of toxic waste: put it in the trunks of cars and sell the cars "as is."


oh, btw, I'm moving this thread to the garage.

Federal Law in the US, but it seems like the OP is from the UK ?

I agree on principal though.

 

[ViviTheMage]

I think they are more strict over in the UK Yreka.

 

[imported_Baloo]

That the buyer is asking, he likely knows he has no legal recourse against your brother, otherwise he would insist. It's been over two years. Your brother cannot be held responsible for for repairs that long after purchase. There's no way a Hyundai exhaust cost $2500, even if it were gold plated.

 

[Yreka]

Originally posted by: Baloo
That the buyer is asking, he likely knows he has no legal recourse against your brother, otherwise he would insist. It's been over two years. Your brother cannot be held responsible for for repairs that long after purchase. There's no way a Hyundai exhaust cost $2500, even if it were gold plated.

I dunno, I would probably respond the same way if I were the buyer.. In my experience, if you are reasonable with people you are more likely to get what you want.. Catch more flies with sugar that vinegar, or whatever the saying is.. It sounds like the buyer is looking for a compromise..

Also, it was 2 months, not 2 years.

I am with you on the cost though, that is effing ridiculous. Then again it is Europe, %75 of that could be tax

 

[exdeath]

The buyer is dumb for not inquiring about emissions, it's one of those things you ask along the lines of oil change history, title history, etc.

But standard legally required things like emissions control devices should be understood to be on the car as it was from the factory unless the seller explicitly makes it crystal clear otherwise. Simply "custom header" with no mention of the missing cat or potential for emissions or legal problems was kind of shady if you ask me.

As a buyer I want to know all modifications and as a seller I make clear in detail all modifications.

 

[nweaver]

Used vehicles are sold AS IS unless otherwise specified.

 

[Gibson486]

you need to check your laws.

In Mass. if you buy a car that does not pass inspections (provided the seller lead the buyer to believe it would), then the vehicle is declared a lemon. The seller can either fix the car or have the money refunded in exchange for the car back. It does not matter if the exhaust is not OEM, it just has to pass emissions.

 

[Pacfanweb]

The buyer took delivery of the vehicle as-is. Unless your particular state has some law to the contrary, I think your brother is in the clear.