My buddy just one upped me...

[exdeath]

This is the least intelligent thing you have ever said. Astonishing, I know. You say so much dumb shit.

Someone: "Look at this amazing Porsche GT3 RS!"
Alkemyst: "Yeah and a 10sec Civic will hand them all it's taillights."

Someone: "Look at this wicked custom Skyline GTR!"
Alkemyst: "Yeah and a 10sec Sentra will hand them all it's taillights."

Someone: "Look at this quick Bugatti Veyron!"
Alkemyst: "Yeah and a 10sec Minivan will hand them all it's taillights."

Someone: "Look at this drool-worthy 9-second Camaro SS!"
Alkemyst: "Yeah and a 6sec Funny Car will hand them all it's taillights."

Someone: "Look at this ridiculous 5-second bike!"
Alkemyst: "Yeah and a 1sec missile will hand them all it's exhaust."

Do you troll to troll? For fucks sake, it's getting old.

I have to side with Alky here. He's saying exactly what you are trying to say here, that there is more to a car than just performance numbers. You just misinterpreted.

He used his "10 second Civic" example for someone asking why anyone would buy a 4.2 V8 Audi when the V6 model around the corner will be superior. eg: more to a car than just performance numbers and specs on paper. If his buddy wanted a faster car or was worried about the new V6 S5 being faster than his V8 S5, he could just build a 10 second Civic and be done with it and be faster than both. But that isn't his priority in cars. That was the point being made by the "10 second Civic" remark.

 

[Safeway]

I have to side with Alky here. He's saying exactly what you are trying to say here, that there is more to a car than just performance numbers. You just misinterpreted.

He used the 10 second Civic example for someone asking why anyone would buy a 4.2 V8 Audi when the V6 model around the corner will be superior. eg: more to a car than just performance numbers and specs on paper.

That sort of comparison doesn't work in this situation. It's the same car, just a more advanced engine. Throwing a 10-second Civic into the mix doesn't add a thing to the discussion. Apples to apples, it is about performance numbers.

 

[exdeath]

That sort of comparison doesn't work in this situation. It's the same car, just a more advanced engine. Throwing a 10-second Civic into the mix doesn't add a thing to the discussion. Apples to apples, it is about performance numbers.

He's saying his buddy has no interest in the upcoming V6, and people who don't "get it" keep probing why and how stupid it is to buy the "inferior" end of life V8 model. If he was constantly worried about something newer or faster around the corner, he could just buy a "10 second Civic" and be faster than either one if that's all that he cared about.

That was the point being made, and an legit one at that.

He likes the V8, bought the V8, doesn't care about the V6, end of story. People worry too much about why other people have the preferences they do.

Someone like me is happy with a twin turbo Terminator Cobra destroying anything for years to come from light to light and on the highway, but other people have other needs and wants in their car shopping that don't revolve around waiting all the time to make sure they have the latest model with 5 more HP than their neighbors.

Another example? I prefer the E46 M3 with the S54 I6 over the E9x V8. I don't care if the E9x is better in every way, there is just something special and iconic about the S54 and being the last I6 M and the pinnacle of NA I6 engine development. It just has more character than throwing a generic big V8/V10/turbos at the next gen Ms, I don't care if it's only 333 HP and old and slow. (and HPF can fix the latter). There are just some cars you can enjoy without needing to be the newest latest or fastest on the block.

I can relate to his buddy specifically wanting the last V8 S5 and having no interest whatsoever in the latest greatest newest betterest upcoming V6 S5. A real car enthusiast develops emotional attachment to a particular vehicle that defies logic and paper specs. Newer and faster often isn't better for alot of people.

For those of us who *do* only care about being faster than anything that pulls up next to them or anything coming out next year, including 2013 Audis, there are 10 second Civics and Kenne Bell Cobras.

 

[alkemyst]

This is the least intelligent thing you have ever said. Astonishing, I know. You say so much dumb shit.

[snip]

Do you troll to troll? For fucks sake, it's getting old.

Dude, you are a clueless and sad little man. exdeath fully understood what I meant.

You need to read the post first, comprehend it...instead of just saying "OH OH OH ALKEMYST GRRRRRG GRRRRR!!!!! TROLL TROLL TROLL!!!!!! /SLAMS KEYBOARD&KICKS DOG"

 

[alkemyst]

I will say Audi roadside is excellent. The guy with the S5 had a blow out on Thursday night around 7pm on the way to a function we were having. They were there in 15mins, he was at the function only about 30 mins after us. They installed his 'donut' and had his new tire ready by noon Friday.

Sucks though the time he lost due to the city not repairing a pot hole for 6 months. Oddly enough yesterday morning it was all nice and filled with fresh asphalt.

 

[alkemyst]

I regards to the E46 vs the E92, I test drove both...from the seat they do not feel that much different. The V8 does have a nice sound, but the I6 does too esp once a rasp pipe is retrofitted.

The stitching detail is nice on the E92, but the car is no longer 'cockpit' oriented. It's also more gadgety. I know many like gadgets, but in my cars I like them spartan. Give me the basics of course, but don't clutter the car with a button for everything. The exterior of the E46 looks much much better to me. The E92 looks like someone squeezing their ass together from the back and there is nothing really aggressive about it from other angles.

For the price I paid for my low mileage E46, I was in the territory for a 2008 easily. If I wanted to hit the top of my budget I could have easily bought a brand new 2011/2012. To me the $20k difference simply wasn't worth it and I personally don't believe in the price rape for a new car. The reality: a $1200 car payment vs a $700 one. Once I found out my car still qualified for the 4 year/60k mile bumper to bumper warranty I dropped $5k on that. Sort of the best of both worlds now.

My wife worries about things so not buying her a new car would have every little thing a potential issue the previous owner may have caused and the used vs new prices on her car were very close anyway.

 

[yottabit]

http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publish/Audi_News/article_7393.shtml
My buddy just one upped me...

You're right, that Audi is a lot nicer than a Yaris

 

[alkemyst]

I'd die before I drove such a miserly vehicle.

 

[exdeath]

I regards to the E46 vs the E92, I test drove both...from the seat they do not feel that much different.

The E46 M looks much more sexy under the hood too.

I fell in love with the S54 the first time I saw the exploded diagram showing really just how clean and simple and how few parts it really is for such an advanced engine. It stands in the face of standard "German engineering" practice of over complicating things. That clean barren engine bay devoid of rats nests and unnecessary contraptions is just art.

Of course it started with the engine. I've since come to admire the whole car. Remarkable from the standpoint that the standard E46 body and BMW in general never did anything for me outside this one car.

 

[sjwaste]

Having owned both BMW and Audi as brand new purchases, they are about on par in terms repairs. As long as you are within the warranty period, dealer will take care of it just the same.

We had awful dealer support while the Passat was under warranty. The oil cooler had a plastic part that started leaking, so I had oil in the coolant. I brought it in at least 3 times, possibly as many as 6, with the same cold start and off-idle gurgle coming from the dash. I asked them to find out what was either getting into, or escaping from, the cooling system and to repair it.

They never found the issue until the car was about 1000 miles out of warranty. Then it was obvious, and they offered to fix it to the tune of about 3k. I had to fight them tooth and nail to get them to fix it under warranty because I had been bringing the car in repeatedly with the same symptoms. They eventually did cover it.

That's probably the worst story, but they fought just about everything that went wrong under warranty and tried to exclude it. We're talking a Passat driven by my wife with absolutely no modifications or abuse. 100% dealer service according to the schedule.

This is one of the larger dealers in the DC metro area, which probably means one of the larger nationally.

Never again. I won't touch a VW product, including Audi. Fun cars, I'm sure, but they treated us like shit when we were just out of college and could barely afford their low end, and that's not the formula for putting me in their premium brand now.

 

[exdeath]

Thats why I like modding my cars and working on them myself. Most mechanics or dealers aren't going to know what they are looking at anyway when they pop the hood and it doesn't match their OEM manuals. Unless they are hot rodders with a firm grasp of fundamentals themselves.

I get a leak or something I just buy $90 in OEM o rings and gaskets, give up a Saturday, and it's done. No fuss.

No warranty or penny pinching fiscal motivations.

 

[alkemyst]

The E46 M looks much more sexy under the hood too.

I fell in love with the S54 the first time I saw the exploded diagram showing really just how clean and simple and how few parts it really is for such an advanced engine. It stands in the face of standard "German engineering" practice of over complicating things. That clean barren engine bay devoid of rats nests and unnecessary contraptions is just art.

Of course it started with the engine. I've since come to admire the whole car. Remarkable from the standpoint that the standard E46 body and BMW in general never did anything for me outside this one car.

This is a probably sad point for me when talking uber performance...

however, unless the engine compartment looks good, I will skip the car.

If the car is too complicated to work on, I will skip the car.

If I was bringing in 2-3x my salary, I'd be ok with brain-damage maintenance I'd still want a nice engine bay.

 

[exdeath]

My post had nothing to do with maintenance. It's more admiration from an engineering perspective. I'm a huge believer of KISS. The S54 is so simple, it's beautiful just standing there and looking at it.

You just have a head with coil pack cover, throttle array, intake box, the block, the front Vanos block and timing cover and oil filter, an exhaust manifold, and oil pan. Injector rail, vacuum manifold pipe, and ignition harness cover on the top. You know there are some valves, lifters, cams, pistons, rods, and crank inside and that's it. What little harness there is thanks to all solid state engine management, is tucked away out of sight. You open the hood and you see an engine in it's purest form and nothing more. It's one of the cleanest OEM engine bays there is.

The best part is so many people are used to "German", "over complicated", "unreliable", "headache", etc when they think "BMW engine", but not this one. It's just clean and raw.

It's simple enough that a farm boy could work on it without knowing anything about BMWs. Yet it's still 333 HP in a simple 3.2L I6 but without any of the usual modern excessive gadgetry or technowizardry we expect from makers like BMW.

 

[alkemyst]

ok?

 

[ballmode]

I love the M3 and especially the E46's, but they weigh 3400lbs.

It was a great car, still great too but today I can get a new 370z or basically any mustang and get equal or greater performance with less maintenance costs.

The engine is simple, but that 60k tuneup is insane for such a simple engine.

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2008/08/2002-bmw-m3-60k-service.html

"Just about a week ago Inside line Editor-in-Chief Scott Oldham alerted you to the fact that our 2002 BMW M3 was due for an oil service. And as this blog is for you guys, he opened the door for you to determine our course of action: Do it ourselves? Take it to a BMW dealer? Or go local?

We read the responses and weighed our options carefully. We were all set, Dickies coveralls laid out nicely, to do the job ourselves when we looked into our BMW's history. Turns out the M3 is a hair more complicated than the bitchin' Camaro we learned to turn a wrench on. M3's, we found out ( SubyTrojan gets some serious credit here), require some major services to be performed during their normal life cycle (Inspections I and II in BMW-speak). The first one should happen after the 1,200 mile service, the first oil service-- figure at about the 30K mile marker-- and includes a myriad of checks, changes, adjustments and alignments. The first owner of the car had this service performed under warranty at the required time. Their record keeping and watchmaker precision with services is one of the highlights of this used car. The second service -- one that includes new plugs, a change of transmission fluid, diff fluid, engine oil, air filter and microfilter along with a valve adjustment-- had not been done. This interval happened at some point between the original owner selling the car and us buying it. What luck.

I called BMW of Beverly Hills to see what this service would run. North of 2-grand somewhere. I blacked out after I heard "two-thou...". After hearing the first portion of the price, Oldham made the executive decision "Let's go local." And so we did. "

 

[exdeath]

You've named mostly plugs and fluid changes and vague "adjustment and alignment" as "major service interval" ? Are we talking wheel alignment? Adjustment of headlights? What?

The only real mechanical work that stands out is valve lash adjustment required periodically for any car without hydraulic "lifters"... which just happens to be a rare thing today. There is actually a very good reason for it, having to do with the deliberate simplicity of the Vanos system followers.

I wouldn't call it "insane" so much as more comprehensive and thorough than the average Joe is used to. Some of the same procedures are probably documented in a Camaro's service manual too, such as checking timing chain tension at 60k miles or something, but nobody ever does it because it won't cost them $15,000+ for a long block on the 1 in a million chance it failed.

I'm sure my Camry 5SFE with 170k could do with some new valve shims... but I don't rev it to 8500 RPM so it's not a critical item.

 

[ballmode]

i heard its an easier job just you gotta have the right tools for it

 

[alkemyst]

I love the M3 and especially the E46's, but they weigh 3400lbs.

It was a great car, still great too but today I can get a new 370z or basically any mustang and get equal or greater performance with less maintenance costs.

The 370Z and Mustangs are right in that weight group too with the 370z being a tad lighter and the mustang GT a tad heavier.

The engine is simple, but that 60k tuneup is insane for such a simple engine.

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2008/08/2002-bmw-m3-60k-service.html

Well it's not such a simple engine. Mechanical valves require adjustment, that is most of the cost of Inspection II. Like any of the higher end cars, there is an increased cost of normal maintenance and it's one of the reasons these cars can be at 125-150k and still perform as if new.

 

[sjwaste]

Valve lash isn't difficult it's just time consuming. I'm honestly surprised that it even requires inspection at 60k miles though. I realize my car and experience are of a different era, but it's really just not that tough of a job.

The Supra is shim in bucket, not shim under bucket, so it's somewhat easier to remove - just use the spring compressor tool from Toyota and pick the shim out. Replace with the right thickness and double-check with a feeler gauge. From looking at some pictures, it looks like the S54 is shim in bucket as well.

For a straight 6, 24V engine, it's probably a 3 hour job in your driveway assuming you don't have to go back to the dealer for more shims. But I can see why the dealer charges so much for it, even someone that does it all day is going to take a little time with this one.

 

[alkemyst]

time is money.

 

[Imdmn04]

We had awful dealer support while the Passat was under warranty. The oil cooler had a plastic part that started leaking, so I had oil in the coolant. I brought it in at least 3 times, possibly as many as 6, with the same cold start and off-idle gurgle coming from the dash. I asked them to find out what was either getting into, or escaping from, the cooling system and to repair it.

They never found the issue until the car was about 1000 miles out of warranty. Then it was obvious, and they offered to fix it to the tune of about 3k. I had to fight them tooth and nail to get them to fix it under warranty because I had been bringing the car in repeatedly with the same symptoms. They eventually did cover it.

That's probably the worst story, but they fought just about everything that went wrong under warranty and tried to exclude it. We're talking a Passat driven by my wife with absolutely no modifications or abuse. 100% dealer service according to the schedule.

This is one of the larger dealers in the DC metro area, which probably means one of the larger nationally.

Never again. I won't touch a VW product, including Audi. Fun cars, I'm sure, but they treated us like shit when we were just out of college and could barely afford their low end, and that's not the formula for putting me in their premium brand now.

This just depends on your luck. I remember when the N54 fiasco first came about, people were going back to BMW dealership repeatedly for the high pressure fuel pump. When my 335i went into limp mode on the road, I was thankful that it only took once.

Plus Audi dealership experiences are totally different than VW, just like Lexus's dealership experiences are totally different than Toyotas.

 

[SabaII]

I love Audis but I would be very hard pressed to own a newer one. My friend is a tech at Audi and you wouldn't believe some of the stupid stuff you have to do for what we would think are relatively normal things. For example replacing a headlamp. Simple right? He found it easier to remove the wheel and inner fender well and reach to the rear of the light and replace it rather then pull the front bumper off of the vehicle as per Audi service procedure. I believe this is on the A8. F that noise. Sorry if its a bit off topic but I found that to be stupid, back on topic that S5 is sexy.

 

[sjwaste]

This just depends on your luck. I remember when the N54 fiasco first came about, people were going back to BMW dealership repeatedly for the high pressure fuel pump. When my 335i went into limp mode on the road, I was thankful that it only took once.

Plus Audi dealership experiences are totally different than VW, just like Lexus's dealership experiences are totally different than Toyotas.

Yeah, I get that, but as a consumer, the way to get me into your premium lineup is to treat me like a valued customer when your beater is all that I can afford, you know?

Toyota provided me with better support on my then 10 year old car than VW did within warranty on a new Passat. Subaru so far has provided me with a better dealer experience than VW did. So when we're shopping for my wife's next car this year, we can probably meet our requirements without having to take a risk on another VW/Audi product.

 

[alkemyst]

Yeah, I get that, but as a consumer, the way to get me into your premium lineup is to treat me like a valued customer when your beater is all that I can afford, you know?

Toyota provided me with better support on my then 10 year old car than VW did within warranty on a new Passat. Subaru so far has provided me with a better dealer experience than VW did. So when we're shopping for my wife's next car this year, we can probably meet our requirements without having to take a risk on another VW/Audi product.

Not really...they will cater to you within the line up you are in.

Just like you'd be treated differently if you came in in a 10 year old car you bought from them new vs a 10 year old used car you picked up from the 3rd owner that wasn't even bought in the same state.

Not many people jump brands from a normal to a high-line one.

Chevy will fight more for a Ford driver than BMW or Porsche. Sadly some of the time just blowing them off. When I was looking for cars in the mid 5 figure segment while driving my 240SX, I often had to go to a manager or senior staff member to get the attention I wanted. For every serious guy like me, there are probably 10-20 tire kickers just looking for a test drive.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

Not really...they will cater to you within the line up you are in.

Just like you'd be treated differently if you came in in a 10 year old car you bought from them new vs a 10 year old used car you picked up from the 3rd owner that wasn't even bought in the same state.

Not many people jump brands from a normal to a high-line one.

Chevy will fight more for a Ford driver than BMW or Porsche. Sadly some of the time just blowing them off. When I was looking for cars in the mid 5 figure segment while driving my 240SX, I often had to go to a manager or senior staff member to get the attention I wanted. For every serious guy like me, there are probably 10-20 tire kickers just looking for a test drive.

Not really, you would be surprised how much people take you seriously if you act professional.

I got VW to loan me a brand new CC when they were doing my DSG replacement in my GTI. They normally gave out Golfs or Beetles but I simply asked the service manager for something equivalent.

Hell this last month I walked into one of the largest MBZ dealers in the western US and just straight up asked to speak with the manager in charge of corporate/fleet/maybach sales. We worked out a deal in 30 minutes, and I was there by myself for that one.

I practically did the same for my 3 series as well. Walked in, asked if I could speak with their corporate/fleet sales guy. They got me into his office and I walked out 45 minutes later with my keys. That was possibly the easiest buying experience ever, kudos for BMW on that.