He isn't driving them...he'd be stuck in his driveway, throttle to the floor...because that's the best way to drive in the snow...
In a thread about traction control I said the Corolla (and Prius and Camry) are piles of shit because the traction control causes the vehicle to get stuck. Basically what happens is the car detects spin on one of the tires because it's an open differential, then it cuts all power so the car stops. If you've ever driven in snow before, you'd know the #1 rule of snow that is that you never stop because it will sink down and you'll never get it rolling again until you dig it out.Link?
first post said:Maybe someone can answer a confusing question for me: "why does turning off the stabilitrak and TC improve driving thru deep snow (over 10" - 12")???"
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I read here about turning off the Stabilitrak for better performance in deep snow and keeping it on for just a couple of inches of snow. When I turned it off, my H3 seemed to "pull" itself thru the snow whereas with it on it seemed to "push" itself thru the snow (with the stabilitrak icon flashing from time to time). With the stabilitrak/tc off, my H3 performed like I would expect a 4wd to perform in deep snow.
Why did the performance improve?? Doesn't turning off stabilitrak also disable traction control (according to owner's manual)???? You would think that traction control would be a good thing for deep snow
reply to above post said:Deep snow is very often handled similar to deep sand (and it is entirely different from ice and hard pack covered roads).... you WANT tire spin to dig to traction and clean out the treads of the tire.... fling that snow man!!! You WANT to control how much tire spin with the long pedal, not some goofy idiot helping anti-lock brake system. In deep snow you are not going to be going 55mph and have to hang a left turn. If you are in deep snow and you need more throttle to get you moving and keep momentum... just like sand, you do NOT want TC or StabiliTrack applying brake to the wheels, requiring more throttle, and more brake.... see the vicious cycle you are avoiding by turning it off??
first post said:Oh my gawd! We finally got some snow in MN. I just found out that my wife's $36,000 2006 Highlander Hybrid is 100% absolutely useless in powder snow. This thing will leave you stranded!!!!
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I have a Chevy Silverado 4WD and it's awesome in deep snow
.....
And the [Toyota Highlander] instantly came to a complete stop!! Stepping on the gas pedal had NO EFFECT. The engine will not rev up, no power is applied to the wheels, and it just sits there like a freaking boat anchor!! What a horrible piece of crap!! This vehicle will leave you stranded if you ever try to drive in anything that will cause wheel slippage such as medium depth snow, loose sand, gravel, etc. In such a situation small 2WD drive cars would be able to keep going and you will be left stranded in your nearly $40,000 piece of Toyota crap!! I just called the service manager at the Toyota dealer and complained and she said "But it's unusual to drive one of these in 8" of snow". Bull crap! Our cul-de-sac often has that much snow in the event of one of our increasingly rare MN snowfalls. These things need to have a mode where you can shut off the Traction Control system, even if that puts you only into front-wheel-drive-only mode.
first post said:All things considered, my '07 SRT8 is bone stock and it has done very well in the snow. While it's no 4WD pick-up truck, I've had no real issues so far, and that includes driving on unplowed streets with 12" of fresh snow. Simply stated, it goes pretty well but the ESP absolutely has to be off to take off in heavy snow.
I routinely turned off the Stabilitrak system in my former TBSS whenever I drove it in the snow because it made pulling out into traffic or trying to accelerate from a stop difficult. I've found the same with ESP system in my SRT8. I'd much prefer to drive in snow with it off, but am concerned with the effects it could have on the transfer case.
Your argument involves 2WD vehicles and your evidence involves AWD/4WD vehicles.
Your argument involves 2WD vehicles and your evidence involves AWD/4WD vehicles.
Because obviously the two are completely different. When you have AWD/4WD, it's best to fling snow to propel the vehicle. When it's a FWD Prius, the best solution is to completely remove all power to the wheels and let the car sink deeper into the snow.
Where did you guys go to school? I seriously wonder sometimes.
Shawn in a few short hrs has over 1000 hits!
My first car was a Toyota, I had a Civic, between the two I'd go with Honda first
Why?
They didn't aspire to be the worlds largest and decontent their cars to the point they ride on reputation. Honda IMO still relies on building cars and engineering and making a profit without chasing market share. . .
Where do you think I live? Every side street in my city has at least 4 inches of snow on it. People around here know how to drive in snow, and rule #1 is you never stop. Toyota says fuck the rules and forces the car to stop, which then means the car is stuck because getting a car moving is a lot harder than keeping a car moving when it's already moving.No and No. Please base your rants on experience, not forum postings taken out of context.
Driving school teaches how to drive. It's that thing the law required you to take before taking your driving test.And also please let me know which school teaches snow driving techniques.
Link?
Where do you think I live? Every side street in my city has at least 4 inches of snow on it. People around here know how to drive in snow, and rule #1 is you never stop. Toyota says fuck the rules and forces the car to stop, which then means the car is stuck because getting a car moving is a lot harder than keeping a car moving when it's already moving.
Driving school teaches how to drive. It's that thing the law required you to take before taking your driving test.
Oh my gawd! We finally got some snow in MN. I just found out that my wife's $36,000 2006 Highlander Hybrid is 100% absolutely useless in powder snow. This thing will leave you stranded!!!!
....
I have a Chevy Silverado 4WD and it's awesome in deep snow
.....
And the [Toyota Highlander] instantly came to a complete stop!! Stepping on the gas pedal had NO EFFECT. The engine will not rev up, no power is applied to the wheels, and it just sits there like a freaking boat anchor!! What a horrible piece of crap!! This vehicle will leave you stranded if you ever try to drive in anything that will cause wheel slippage such as medium depth snow, loose sand, gravel, etc. In such a situation small 2WD drive cars would be able to keep going and you will be left stranded in your nearly $40,000 piece of Toyota crap!! I just called the service manager at the Toyota dealer and complained and she said "But it's unusual to drive one of these in 8" of snow". Bull crap! Our cul-de-sac often has that much snow in the event of one of our increasingly rare MN snowfalls. These things need to have a mode where you can shut off the Traction Control system, even if that puts you only into front-wheel-drive-only mode.
The above is quoted for reference when I respond to this:Because obviously the two are completely different. When you have AWD/4WD, it's best to fling snow to propel the vehicle. When it's a FWD Prius, the best solution is to completely remove all power to the wheels and let the car sink deeper into the snow.
Where did you guys go to school? I seriously wonder sometimes.
Where do you think I live? Every side street in my city has at least 4 inches of snow on it. People around here know how to drive in snow, and rule #1 is you never stop. Toyota says fuck the rules and forces the car to stop, which then means the car is stuck because getting a car moving is a lot harder than keeping a car moving when it's already moving.
I've only needed to 'fling snow' for fun, or in circumstances it just happened (crap tires for snow), but it effectively means you aren't in control.
I said you should always keep the tires spinning and the lack of spinning is why traction control is a direct cause of vehicles getting stuck. Then I quoted several posts from several different forums describing several different vehicles all having the exact same problem where the vehicle cuts power to the wheels, the car sinks, then it can't get out.The above is quoted for reference when I respond to this:
OK, so you know not to stop, so why on earth do you suggest 'flinging snow' for a 4WD car and 'Let the car sink' for FWD, both of which are possibly the worst suggestions for snow driving ever comitted to the internet?
I've found it better to have it switched on full time than to let it come on by itself in the snow. Seems to be "less rough" on things when you hit the button to turn it on.
^^hitting the button turns it off actually.....
i drove thru a foot of snow with my RX350 (lexus highlander) just fine. granted i was crawling in traffic because other morons couldn't figure out how to drive. no need to turn off traction control there
Well then riddle me this. Why does the car not move at all when the traction control is on, but it easily gets out of ruts when the traction control is off? Are magic traction control fairies holding the car down? Or is it the simpler explanation that traction control sucks and that's why the car isn't moving?He has no idea how to drive in the snow. He's stomping on the gas, making the tires spin like mad and causing the T/C to intervene so much that he isn't moving.
I said you should always keep the tires spinning and the lack of spinning is why traction control is a direct cause of vehicles getting stuck. Then I quoted several posts from several different forums describing several different vehicles all having the exact same problem where the vehicle cuts power to the wheels, the car sinks, then it can't get out.
Some reply was that my argument was wrong because all of the vehicles described in those stories were 4WD. According to someone, FWD and 4WD are completely different and that's why the quoted stories are invalid.
Don't take my word for it. Actually search this yourself. Go to any search engine and type "traction control deep snow" without the quotes. Are most people saying it's good, or are they saying it's bad?
What's funny is when people don't know what they are saying:
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143542
Then the reply to that
:awe:
edited to correct names and such
Well then riddle me this. Why does the car not move at all when the traction control is on, but it easily gets out of ruts when the traction control is off? Are magic traction control fairies holding the car down? Or is it the simpler explanation that traction control sucks and that's why the car isn't moving?
You should also ask why so many people want the traction control to be turned off. If it made the car accelerate faster, we would insist on leaving it on all the time.
So much fail, yet so much science that people can't even handle it.So much fail.
There are two factors in reaching and sustaining the maximum traction performance from the tire. First, a tire's maximum traction potential is actually reached when there is a small amount of slippage. This "slippage" is translated differently for braking, accelerating, and cornering.
Under braking, the peak performance of the tire is reached when the tire is turning slightly less than a one-to-one relationship of the distance traveled. In other words, if the car were at a steady state, and the wheel turned 10 times to cover a certain distance, under braking, the wheel would now turn perhaps only 9-1/2 times to achieve the peak slippage performance. It is possible to learn how to feel the car through the brake pedal, steering wheel, and seat and sense this tiny bit of extra braking force from the tire.
In acceleration, the tire should travel slightly more distance than the distance of the acceleration (spin just a bit faster than normal). The tires will actual slip; not a lot all at once to result in free wheelspin, but ever so slightly during the whole acceleration phase. When you can sense this slip, and control it, this is when you're getting maximum acceleration from the vehicle.
Because obviously the two are completely different. When you have AWD/4WD, it's best to fling snow to propel the vehicle. When it's a FWD Prius, the best solution is to completely remove all power to the wheels and let the car sink deeper into the snow.
Where did you guys go to school? I seriously wonder sometimes.
So much fail, yet so much science that people can't even handle it.
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/handling_tractn
That's actually true. I work in transportation and we intentionally accelerate trains at about 5-10% slip. If we worked with 0% slip, the thing would take forever to speed up.
The other thing to consider is that torque delivered to the wheel with the most traction is equal to the torque delivered to the wheel with no traction. How do you deliver the most traction to the tire that has traction? Deliver as much torque as it will handle. In almost all cases, that would mean one tire is spinning really really fast and the other is just applying full torque to the road with no spinning.
In Toyota's twisted world of anti-science pro-nazi ideology, the power is cut so that you can only deliver torque equal to the threshold of slip. If it takes 1Nm of torque to cause slip on your right tire, that's all you'll get on the left tire. If Shawn's at the wheel, pwning the gas pedal as usual, then the torque delivered at both wheels will be ridiculously high. One tire is going 100mph and the other one is just pulling the car forward at a reasonable speed. I don't really know how fast the car is going until I stop hitting the gas