MY ending with AMD

[ebeattie]

Ill keep this short, but felt it needed to be expressed.

My first system I built was AMD. This system I am on right now is AMD. This also happens to be my LAST system with AMD.

I dont know if some of you have heard, but apparently AMD is taking all comers and their donations. For me, this IS big news. Granted AMD may have finally been infused with the operating capital its needed badly, but the last 2-3 years have not stacked well in its favor and now that a LARGE sum of foreign money has been puored in, I dont think I can use them as my CPU supplier for my next build. Who IS AMD these days? Too many different buyouts and investors all with different agendas and not ONE big breakthrough technology! Nvidia has been cleaning their clock and Intel has...welll...been intel and always been ahead.

I know this dont mean squat for you all, but from everything I have read and can tell, Intel is still INTEL, and at that largely American based. Yes that does mean something to me. I was a huge AMD supporter when the K8 architecture was released and I have used 3 K8s in my machines. I just cant seem to shake this feeling that they are REALLY in a hole now; not that this hasnt been an obvious sign the last few years.

So I suppose I am going to say hello to intel. I know that their stuff has been solid for..well.. ever. K8 was solid for AMD but who are they as a company now? At least I KNOW who intel is. I have no idea who AMD is anymore.

/rant

yeah, I know this is a useless post, but I get the feeling Im not the only one that feels this way!

 

[Viditor]

Originally posted by: ebeattie
Ill keep this short, but felt it needed to be expressed.

My first system I built was AMD. This system I am on right now is AMD. This also happens to be my LAST system with AMD.

I dont know if some of you have heard, but apparently AMD is taking all comers and their donations. For me, this IS big news. Granted AMD may have finally been infused with the operating capital its needed badly, but the last 2-3 years have not stacked well in its favor and now that a LARGE sum of foreign money has been puored in, I dont think I can use them as my CPU supplier for my next build. Who IS AMD these days? Too many different buyouts and investors all with different agendas and not ONE big breakthrough technology! Nvidia has been cleaning their clock and Intel has...welll...been intel and always been ahead.

I know this dont mean squat for you all, but from everything I have read and can tell, Intel is still INTEL, and at that largely American based. Yes that does mean something to me. I was a huge AMD supporter when the K8 architecture was released and I have used 3 K8s in my machines. I just cant seem to shake this feeling that they are REALLY in a hole now; not that this hasnt been an obvious sign the last few years.

So I suppose I am going to say hello to intel. I know that their stuff has been solid for..well.. ever. K8 was solid for AMD but who are they as a company now? At least I KNOW who intel is. I have no idea who AMD is anymore.

/rant

yeah, I know this is a useless post, but I get the feeling Im not the only one that feels this way!

Wow...just, wow.

Firstly, I don't know what you mean by "American based"...
Those Intel motherboards? Those are made by Foxconn (Taiwan)...
The C2D? Designed in Isreal, packaged in Indonesia or China, etc...
They are building a $2.5 B wafer Fab in China and have many Fabs all over the world...

The semiconductor industry is spread out all over the world (as is the ownership) for all companies. I don't have the numbers, but I would venture to bet that on a dollar basis, Intel has a lot more foriegn ownership than AMD...of course it's a much bigger company too.

The 66.73% of AMD is owned by US Financial institutions if it makes you feel any better...

 

[mpilchfamily]

AMD is trying to get the money it needs to be able to fund there upcoming projects. The buyout of ATI was a big drain on them and put them into allot of dept. So they haven't had the capital needed to really bring out there next great idea. It will take some time for them to recuperate form it all. As mentioned above they are a much smaller company then Intel and even when they are the top choice for CPUs, they only make up a small fraction of total CPU sales. Fact is Intel has the majority of the OEM suppliers (i.e. Dell, Gateway, HP). So while AMD may be on top for us enthusiasts they are not making a huge dent in the market. At best they help to keep Intel honest with regards to pricing. They keep the competitioon up, prices down, and inovation rapid. They will grow larger as the exspand there line up with ATI's GPUs and chipsets.

 

[nyker96]

On the contraty ebeattie, what you saying is on most people's mind already. I really am too very disappointed that AMD hasn't put out anything innovative recently, but that's because they have made a few error in where they put their money. like they dumped so much cash into ATI acq, etc. Also their over confidence on X2s. Back then I remember them expecting X2s with only minor revisons can hold off intel until 2008. Now it seems ridiculous. So they will have to pay for that in ... cash. I think AMD has gotten a bit lazy when X2 came out and they had a unbeatable winner on their hand. It;s tough to ask a winner to work hard when you already won.

BTW, that bulldog icon you choosed seem to fit the mood of your post very well :]

 

[LosSkin]

I've recently went to Intel on this new system build. AMD has left a sour taste in my mouth, due to them not focusing on their CPUs as Intel has been doing.

AMD i think went cocky as another poster stated. They never expected Intel to have such a market gain with it's C2Duo line. And i only see it getting worse with Intel's 45nm CPUs.

I wouldn't be surprised if AMD continues to look for capital, they might want to merge with Intel lol

 

[brxndxn]

Originally posted by: nyker96
On the contraty ebeattie, what you saying is on most people's mind already. I really am too very disappointed that AMD hasn't put out anything innovative recently, but that's because they have made a few error in where they put their money. like they dumped so much cash into ATI acq, etc. Also their over confidence on X2s. Back then I remember them expecting X2s with only minor revisons can hold off intel until 2008. Now it seems ridiculous. So they will have to pay for that in ... cash. I think AMD has gotten a bit lazy when X2 came out and they had a unbeatable winner on their hand. It;s tough to ask a winner to work hard when you already won.

BTW, that bulldog icon you choosed seem to fit the mood of your post very well :]

When the X2 was the fastest, AMD was desperately trying to keep up with demand. That took away from AMD's ability to update their fabrication processes to newer technology. Also, it took away from R&D which allowed Intel to get ahead.

 

[BitByBit]

I wouldn't attribute AMD's poor performance of late to their being 'cocky'. In addition to manufacturing issues, Barcelona's late arrival is the result of previous cancelled projects, most notably 'K9'. AMD, unlike Intel, do not have the virtue of being able to run multiple projects in parallel, which means when K9 was cancelled, AMD had to turn the ship around and refocus on K10. This is why AMD have lagged behind, not because they thought K8 was enough to keep Intel at bay indefinitely, as some seem to suggest.

In retrospect, it seems AMD's biggest mistake was not making any significant updates to the K8 architecture since its debut. Perhaps their R&D resources were already committed when it was sensible to do so.

 

[Viditor]

I'd like to clear up a few common misconceptions here if I may...
I have seen these time and again, and if you don't really study the semiconductor industry as I have, it's easy to arrive at them by using "common sense". Unfortunately, they're wrong...

1. "AMD got lazy" - A very common misconception... The fact is that it takes ~5 years and a huge amount of money to create a newly designed chip. It IS possible to cut this time down a bit (say 3.5 years) if you throw a ton of extra money at it (double or triple the design teams while allocating plenty of extra Fab lines to R&D for example).
But for AMD to have a killer replacement of the X2 in place by 2007, they would have had to start it in 2002...
How many of you remember what happened to the economy in general and the semiconductor industry specifically in 2002? That's right...disaster to the bottom line for both Intel and AMD! Intel's share price dropped from ~$35 in Jan 02 to ~$13 in Oct 02, and AMD went from ~$20 to ~$3.50...Both companies had their cash hurt badly because nobody could afford to buy computers anymore.
Of course for Intel, this wasn't such a big deal...they still had many Billions in reserve, stored up over a number of years. But for AMD, launching a new large-scale R&D effort was like pushing a boulder uphill in the dead of winter during a blizzard, while dragging a sled and all the dogs...it was a bit tough.

Now add to that...When Prescott was nearing completion (probably when it first taped out and they could test it, say early 2003), Intel realized that they were about to hit a HUGE wall very quickly. The leakage in Netburst had become much greater than anyone at Intel could have predicted...
So, Intel made the smartest strategic move that they have in their history. They bit the bullet, cancelled a whole slough of projects (like Whitefield, which was to be the first CSI based CPU to be released in 2006/7), and poured ALL of their resources into their existing Core and Core2 projects...the upshot was, they got C2D out in 3.5 years instead of the usual 5 years and there was absolutely NOTHING AMD could do about it...they just couldn't afford those kind of resources.

BTW...I find it quite ironic that many folks feel that AMD is both lazy, and that they made a mistake investing all that money into ATI.
Buying ATI is in essence AMD being highly motivated to not be behind for the next great innovation. In fact they hope to be well out in front (though it sure is painful and expensive to get there...).

2. "AMD has fallen way behind in Marketshare because of C2D" - In point of fact, AMD's marketshare is much higher than it was before C2D.
AMD's current marketshare is 23.5%, prior to C2D it was 21.6% or less...

 

[nyker96]

Originally posted by: BitByBit
I wouldn't attribute AMD's poor performance of late to their being 'cocky'. In addition to manufacturing issues, Barcelona's late arrival is the result of previous cancelled projects, most notably 'K9'. AMD, unlike Intel, do not have the virtue of being able to run multiple projects in parallel, which means when K9 was cancelled, AMD had to turn the ship around and refocus on K10. This is why AMD have lagged behind, not because they thought K8 was enough to keep Intel at bay indefinitely, as some seem to suggest.

In retrospect, it seems AMD's biggest mistake was not making any significant updates to the K8 architecture since its debut. Perhaps their R&D resources were already committed when it was sensible to do so.

I do agree with some of what you saying that AMD unlike Intel have limited revenue to R&D parallel architectures. However, AMD back then did make statements that revisions and 65nm die shrinks was enough to hold off intel until Q1 of 2008 where Barcelona will take over. I think then they did not expect the type of competition C2D brought from Intel. Thus they focused their cash into ATI acq. which is sensible move if X2s indeed was enough to hold Intel off. In that case they shouldn't be putting too much into chip R&D but rather platform acquisition for their future OEM deals. Again, logical bet if the CPU scene worked out like they envisioned.

 

[jones377]

Originally posted by: Viditor
2. "AMD has fallen way behind in Marketshare because of C2D" - In point of fact, AMD's marketshare is much higher than it was before C2D.
AMD's current marketshare is 23.5%, prior to C2D it was 21.6% or less...

What about dollarshare?

 

[MarcVenice]

Jeez, if I had to stop buying products that weren't 100% Dutch I'd be eating flowers every day and playing with flowers every day, if I get lucky and don't end up with imported flowers that are cheaper then Dutch qaulity flowers. Biggest bs I've ever read. It's called globalization. Deal with it. And getting on top is easy for a company, staying on top is much harder. Look at Intel, didn't they own the CPU industry when AMD bitchslapped them with K8 ? Now they simply swapped places in the same boat, be it that Intel is a much larger corporation and will be more flexible.

If you're dissapointed in AMD, so be it. If you think you are better of with Intel, buy Intel. When AMD comes back on top again, buy AMD again. Fanboyism is the most retarded thing ever, especially when it comes to pieces of sand that both do the same thing in the end, be it a little slower or faster depending on which one you buy.

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: ebeattie
Ill keep this short, but felt it needed to be expressed.

My first system I built was AMD. This system I am on right now is AMD. This also happens to be my LAST system with AMD.

I dont know if some of you have heard, but apparently AMD is taking all comers and their donations. For me, this IS big news. Granted AMD may have finally been infused with the operating capital its needed badly, but the last 2-3 years have not stacked well in its favor and now that a LARGE sum of foreign money has been puored in, I dont think I can use them as my CPU supplier for my next build. Who IS AMD these days? Too many different buyouts and investors all with different agendas and not ONE big breakthrough technology! Nvidia has been cleaning their clock and Intel has...welll...been intel and always been ahead.

I know this dont mean squat for you all, but from everything I have read and can tell, Intel is still INTEL, and at that largely American based. Yes that does mean something to me. I was a huge AMD supporter when the K8 architecture was released and I have used 3 K8s in my machines. I just cant seem to shake this feeling that they are REALLY in a hole now; not that this hasnt been an obvious sign the last few years.

So I suppose I am going to say hello to intel. I know that their stuff has been solid for..well.. ever. K8 was solid for AMD but who are they as a company now? At least I KNOW who intel is. I have no idea who AMD is anymore.

/rant

yeah, I know this is a useless post, but I get the feeling Im not the only one that feels this way!

So, what you are really saying is because AMD has lost the performance crown (and may not get it back for a while) you won't buy their products

Honestly, I'm nearly 100% positive this post would not exist if Phenom actually outperformed Penryn processors. but you have to write some elaborate "I don't know who owns you anymore" excuses to try and make us all... actually I really don't know what your goal was.

Please spare us the drama. Only Idiots ever say "I am only going to buy product X from now on" They are the ones that create the stupid monopolies we have now. What you should be doing is comparing price and performance and buying according to your budget not based on what fan base you ascribe yourself to.

 

[daveybrat]

For those who think like the OP that think AMD is done, i hope you get your wish. Imagine how much you'll like Intel when there is no competition. Hello inflated prices and good-bye cheap processors.

I'm rooting for AMD to make it big, i'd rather have 2 great chipmakers than 1 monopoly.

 

[NXIL]

Dear EB,

going to be tough to get to the store to buy the Intel without burning some imported petroleum products, unless you walk

on shoes made in the US, and that will exclude almost all of the major brands.....

Levis: only super custom jeans are still made in the US

PC cases: all made in Taiwan/China

And good luck finding a US made CRT or LCD screen: as far as I know, there are none. And, if you do decide to stay home and watch TV, fire up that old RCA wood cabinet black and white, because like most electronics, all production has been outsourced for decades.

Costa Rica's # 1 value export for a while was Intel CPUs....

How's that domestic GM car working out for you?

From July 2006:

DETROIT (AP) _ The Detroit automakers' share of the U.S. market dropped below 50 per cent in July for the first time in history, according to an analyst who tracks industry numbers.

Why? It's obviously globally complicated, but consider:

http://www.time.com/time/magaz...0,9171,1181646,00.html

In today's data-happy era of accountability, testing and No Child Left Behind, here is the most astonishing statistic in the whole field of education: an increasing number of researchers are saying that nearly 1 out of 3 public high school students won't graduate, not just in Shelbyville but around the nation. For Latinos and African Americans, the rate approaches an alarming 50%. Virtually no community, small or large, rural or urban, has escaped the problem.


And, of those who get an advanced education: # of lawyers versus number of engineers? It's not pretty.....

Please note that AMD did hire a bunch of attorneys to sue Intel:

http://www.anandtech.com/weblog/default.aspx?bid=228

Engineer salary: starts at about $50K, up to close to 90K after 20 years:

http://www.payscale.com/resear...anical_Engineer/Salary

New attorney salary:

Oh dear goodness:

In contrast, salaries in other sectors have increased, but at nowhere near a rate to match salary increases in law firms. Although long-term trend information on salaries from public sector employers is not available, salaries reported by graduates taking jobs with these employers suggest increases of about one-third. (See Table 3.)

$68K to 130 K: for the first year.

http://www.nalp.org/content/index.php?pid=543

I am personally really glad all these attorneys are going to be creating and producing such great stuff for all of us to share.

 

[Bill Kunert]

[New attorney salary:

Oh dear goodness:

In contrast, salaries in other sectors have increased, but at nowhere near a rate to match salary increases in law firms. Although long-term trend information on salaries from public sector employers is not available, salaries reported by graduates taking jobs with these employers suggest increases of about one-third. (See Table 3.)

$68K to 130 K: for the first year.

http://www.nalp.org/content/index.php?pid=543

I am personally really glad all these attorneys are going to be creating and producing such great stuff for all of us to share.


[/quote]

I heard a few years ago that the US has approx 7% of the worlds population but 75% of the worlds lawyers. Could explain all the ridiclous lawsuits we see.

 

[ebeattie]

Well, I would like to respond.

I understand globalism and I understand that in the US, most goods ARE made outside the country and imported.

I am a firm believer in a fair market economy. I wasnt TRYING to imply that AMD wasnt relevant anymore, or that they got cocky. The point I was trying to make was that when K8 arrived, AMD seemed to have FOCUS. They KNEW who their target was and seemed like they had a plan to (over time) become a legitimate threat to get more share than 23% from the market. I do want AMD to compete with intel. Thats the only way we as consumers will see low prices for these products.

However, after AMDs success with K8, intel regroups and Core Duo came out, then Core2Duo. AMD answered with...... a purchase of ATI. As diversification goes, its a hell of a concept. but at what cost to the power and quality of R&D for their CPUs which if Im not mistaken is THEIR main product? Imagine how much more R&D could have gone into CPU designs had the ATI purchase NOT happened? The ATI acquisition moved thier focus and resources AWAY from CPU development.

To sum my opinion up, their plan to diversify I think was a good move, but at an EXTREMELY poor time. IMO, had they poured that cash into CPU's, I believe that they would NOT have had to be in a spot where they needed a massive infusion of money...the latest and biggest infusion coming from foreign investors.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/c..._Investment_Group.html

Intel is from my understanding in the business of selling CPUs. They live breath eat and sleep as a company to make the best CPUs they can. Its products that are not CPUs themselves are in effect accessories for those CPUs (motherboards, chipsets, integrated graphics ect).

AMD may have decided that the timing was right for them to diversify with a purchase of ATI and yes, the day may come when people say that was the best decision they made. Integrated CPU's and GPU's are most likely where we are headed. Its the TIMING of the move, and the EFFECT that it had on their core product that has me most compelled to turn to intel. It appears to me that the boys and girls at intel HAVENT lost their focus. The focus being making the best CPUs and dominating the market.

 

[trajan2050]

The only reason AMD's marketshare improved at all is because they are selling their products at a substantial loss. This trend shows no sign of abating. Obviously it cannot go on indefinitely.

 

[trajan2050]

The only reason AMD's marketshare improved at all is because they are selling their products at a substantial loss. This trend shows no sign of abating. Obviously it cannot go on indefinitely.

 

[secretanchitman]

Originally posted by: trajan2050
The only reason AMD's marketshare improved at all is because they are selling their products at a substantial loss. This trend shows no sign of abating. Obviously it cannot go on indefinitely.

qft. while phenom is slower than c2q, its by no means dog slow. it still is much faster then K8 and thats what its all about. we all knew that it wouldnt leap over intel just like that...those kinds of things take time (k8 to c2d).

 

[Om51]

Count me in , I am changing to intel after 4 AMD rigs , AMD must know that we don't accept half-assed & over priced products .

 

[DJCrunkMix]

Originally posted by: Viditor

Some good points. But, I don't really care about the history. The final answer is what is a better deal for the end customer (a smart one ). I don't care what the market share is. I want the chip to perform against the competitors. If it fails, the market share doesn't mean crap.


This is not like Windows vs. Mac OSX if someone was going to point that out as an analogy to defend.

 

[Regs]

Originally posted by: secretanchitman

Originally posted by: trajan2050
The only reason AMD's marketshare improved at all is because they are selling their products at a substantial loss. This trend shows no sign of abating. Obviously it cannot go on indefinitely.

qft. while phenom is slower than c2q, its by no means dog slow. it still is much faster then K8 and thats what its all about. we all knew that it wouldnt leap over intel just like that...those kinds of things take time (k8 to c2d).

Agreed. I believe Gary Keys, a Anand tech journalist, said it. "It's going to be the Bulldozer that will make or break AMD. "

Barcelona, when it first seemed to be only a concept was targeted mostly for the server segment, or smaller parts of the server segment at least. It was never meant to compete with Core until AMD found themselves with their pants around their ankles. This will likely explain all the yield problems they've been having as the Barcelona was never likely to scale above 2.2 GHz. I'm not a semiconductor engineer, but I think anybody who has some experience would of known as soon as they made the blue print for Barcelona that they were going to have trouble scaling it to perform or compete for general usage.

We all knew when Intel's Israeli team designed the mobile part many months before the introduction of the Core Duo, it was the calm before the storm and I don't doubt AMD knew they were in trouble too.

 

[AmberClad]

Originally posted by: Regs
Agreed. I believe Derek Keys, a Anand tech journalist, said it. "It's going to be the Bulldozer that will make or break AMD. "

You mean Gary Keys? Or Derek Wilson?

 

[Regs]

Originally posted by: AmberClad

Originally posted by: Regs
Agreed. I believe Derek Keys, a Anand tech journalist, said it. "It's going to be the Bulldozer that will make or break AMD. "

You mean Gary Keys? Or Derek Wilson?

Gary - Whoops.

Tyvm.

 

[Quiksilver]

That whole rant about how you don't know who AMD is anymore was about the most lame half-assed attempt at trying to explain why the AMD fanboy in you died after holding out for so long. I on the other hand will buy what I can afford at the time with who ever is holding the performance crown within my budget. In this present state Intel is holding the crown and for that I will shell out my cash to them. If five years down the road and AMD is still alive and kicking and once again they hold this glorious crown, my money shall be given to them and it will be money well spent.