My family makes $100k plus a year, its not enough!!

[OverVolt]

Hedonistic creep gets you every time. The more accustomed you are to living the good life, the more difficult it is to return to the frugal life.

There is W-2 inflation though. All these high student loan payments to place you into a middle class job means you bring home at $100k what a dude making $55k brings home after taxes and student loans and such are considered.

Like if you owe $100k your payments will be around $1,000/mo and if you make $80k you aren't getting a tax return. In this area your take home is about 65% of your gross. So that guy takes home 52,000, doesn't get a tax refund, and pays $12,000 a year in student loans so he has $40,000 to play with in his yearly budget.

Or if you make $45k and get back like half your taxes and have no student loans there is barely a difference in disposable income. Everyone would think the first guy is loaded. He probably qualifies for a BMW car loan and McMansion home loan and thinks he can afford it but is probably in debt up to his eyeballs. I'd rather make $45k and drive a Camry thanks. No debt please. Plus you are working an extra 4 years without college. Yeeaaahhhhhh.

No shit someone who becomes like a trucker out of highschool, gets a good job doing that for $50k will have more money in 10 years than someone who goes for an MBA. You can invest that money while you're ahead whereas MBA douche won't be able to really save for retirement until his 40's. Better pray stocks are still going up in 2030! Money now is worth more than money later so long as you invest your savings. Everyone going the education route just keeps delaying, delaying, delay some more, delay a little more... okay... just a little more delaying... all right looking good... just one more delay, its the last one I swear after this other thing I'm delaying is done with then I delay starting my life while I repay my loans and hope nothing goes wrong that delays me ever more. I got a bachelors now I just need a masters, okay now I just need an internship. Any second now I'll be loaded just you wait and see.

 

[brianmanahan]

There is W-2 inflation though. All these high student loan payments to place you into a middle class job means you bring home at $100k what a dude making $55k brings home after taxes and student loans and such are considered.

goto college that gives you a tuition scholarship. free college = profit.

 

[FelixDeCat]

I suggest you read the 1996 book, The Millionaire Next Door. Even a doctor making 700,000 USD a year back in the mid 1990s, was having money troubles.

And yeah, I'd GTFO, from California.

I didnt read it. Aint nobody got time for that.

 

[Exterous]

There is W-2 inflation though. All these high student loan payments to place you into a middle class job means you bring home at $100k what a dude making $55k brings home after taxes and student loans and such are considered.

Like if you owe $100k your payments will be around $1,000/mo and if you make $80k you aren't getting a tax return.

$100k in student loan debt is WAY above average. Average is around $32k

 

[OverVolt]

$100k in student loan debt is WAY above average. Average is around $32k

So would be starting at $80k.

It basically boils down to XYZ education required to get XYZ salary and everything is out of whack. Takes like $150k-175k to become a pharmacist and make $100k. So 8 years of not working, definitely no tax return even with deductions for student loan interest and $1,500-$2,000 monthly payments, easily (as graduate loans run you 7-9%, meanwhile a car runs you 2%, its entirely messed up).

I know a lawyer who started at $45k and owed $150k. They haven't been able to get their loan to actually go down even though they struggled for awhile and then got a halfway decent job for $75k I believe. Their loan still isn't getting paid off and interest is still accruing/spiraling out of control from that rough period.

Dentists are in a bad way as well. I think MBA's are likely in a bad way. Most non-computer science STEM masters degrees are in a bad way, hmmmm even doctors I think will have it rough with all the price pressure on healthcare and $60k/year medical school.

I do have a bachelors degree I just decided to throw in the educational towel as not working out for me and I won't go to graduate school as just some last-ditch effort at a middle class job. In the long run I'll be fine I'm willing to hustle as oppose to just getting a degree so I'm entitled to a good job as I don't have alot of trust in that attitude. I'm quite sick of looking at a certain job and degree it requires and by the time I have it now they want that degree plus two years experience. It's like I missed the boat by two years no matter what I do. So I might as well just downgrade my expectations and get a job more in line with my skills right now instead of delaying until I'm 40 to start my life.

I don't care if the education system was working great 20 years ago, cause its broken as shit right now. I feel like in the long run I'll pull way ahead as I'm not competing against 100 other kids for the 1 middle class white collar "good job" and its quite the relief.

 

[Exterous]

So would be starting at $80k.

It basically boils down to XYZ education required to get XYZ salary and everything is out of whack. Takes like $150k-175k to become a pharmacist and make $100k.

I'm not disagreeing that something is messed up but your numbers still appear off:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930253/

So 8 years of not working

Why 8 years of not working? If I could do it for one of the most difficult curriculums out there so can other people.

Again I agree that tuition costs are a problem but there are a lot of decisions that parents and students are making that aren't helping the situation at all

 

[SP33Demon]

Isn't that the market though? In rural areas everything costs 5 cents including your trailer because everyone is on welfare.

In NYC a hotdog costs 350 bucks but the jobs pay like fucking movie stars so it works out even in both places. Everybody is broke.

I'd rather work in a higher COL area because it's easier to find ways to live cheap on a higher salary vs lower salaries which don't have that luxury.

 

[brianmanahan]

I'd rather work in a higher COL area because it's easier to find ways to live cheap on a higher salary vs lower salaries which don't have that luxury.

I'd rather live in a low COL area and commute to a job in a high COL area. Win win.

 

[Fritzo]

Income level requirements vary from place to place. $100K a year where I live means you can live comfortably. $100K in a coastal city would probably make you lower-middle class, especially if you live in an area with $4/gallon gas and $3000/month rent.

 

[jlee]

I'd rather work in a higher COL area because it's easier to find ways to live cheap on a higher salary vs lower salaries which don't have that luxury.

Also, cars/electronics/etc cost the same. If you make $30k/yr in TN, that $2k TV on Amazon is much more work to earn than it is if you make $150k in LA.

I want to find a CA-pay-scale job that lets me work from Phoenix.

 

[alkemyst]

So would be starting at $80k.

It basically boils down to XYZ education required to get XYZ salary and everything is out of whack. Takes like $150k-175k to become a pharmacist and make $100k. So 8 years of not working, definitely no tax return even with deductions for student loan interest and $1,500-$2,000 monthly payments, easily (as graduate loans run you 7-9%, meanwhile a car runs you 2%, its entirely messed up).

I know a lawyer who started at $45k and owed $150k. They haven't been able to get their loan to actually go down even though they struggled for awhile and then got a halfway decent job for $75k I believe. Their loan still isn't getting paid off and interest is still accruing/spiraling out of control from that rough period.

Dentists are in a bad way as well. I think MBA's are likely in a bad way. Most non-computer science STEM masters degrees are in a bad way, hmmmm even doctors I think will have it rough with all the price pressure on healthcare and $60k/year medical school.

I do have a bachelors degree I just decided to throw in the educational towel as not working out for me and I won't go to graduate school as just some last-ditch effort at a middle class job. In the long run I'll be fine I'm willing to hustle as oppose to just getting a degree so I'm entitled to a good job as I don't have alot of trust in that attitude. I'm quite sick of looking at a certain job and degree it requires and by the time I have it now they want that degree plus two years experience. It's like I missed the boat by two years no matter what I do. So I might as well just downgrade my expectations and get a job more in line with my skills right now instead of delaying until I'm 40 to start my life.

I don't care if the education system was working great 20 years ago, cause its broken as shit right now. I feel like in the long run I'll pull way ahead as I'm not competing against 100 other kids for the 1 middle class white collar "good job" and its quite the relief.

It seems you are quoting the costs of tuition based on the #1 google link which is reporting a very high tuition cost

http://education.costhelper.com/pharmacy-school.html

State pharmacy colleges will run you about $15-80k for the 4 years of pharmacy school. Private schools/out of state public tuition $80-160k. His $170k figure is very high and he doesn't even quote what school, nor did he complete the education to know for sure.

Also many retail chains will subsidize your education.

Back in the early 90's I was slated to be a Pharmacist. I was accepted to both University of Florida's and University of Miami/Nova's SECOGS school at the times prior to completing my AA degree.

I had a deal from Eckerds (which is now CVS) that had me on a $125k salary with bonuses, based on grade level much of my education costs covered (there was a 5 or 10 year guarantee that I had to work for the chain though) and a $25,000 signing bonus.

It was a great deal at the time. Unfortunately, my first wife ended up breaking her neck the spring break before I started the program and we had to relocate for what became a six month+ recovery.

 

[alkemyst]

I'd rather live in a low COL area and commute to a job in a high COL area. Win win.

Providing it's possible and reasonable. This guy does a commute of 220 miles PER DAY!

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/virginia-man-commutes-220-miles-a-day/

 

[vi edit]

100k in two incomes + kids is about the worst spot you can be in. You are right on the cusp of where it sort of...but doesn't sort of make sense for one person to stay home and skip the daycare thing. If one person is making $40,000 or less once you factor in taxes, day care costs, commute costs, daily grind of dealing with two kids (or more) and all the shuffling around they need done then staying at home really is an attractive option.

What sucks is that kids do get older and eventually go to school for the whole day. If that person is interested in working they likely have forfeited years of job experience, retirement accounts, vacation accruals and pay raises. They have to start over again once the kids are older. That's tough. Especially if you've been a stay at home parent for 5-7 years.

But if you don't stay home, then you can be looking at $1500+ a month in daycare costs, dealing with work schedules and trying to work around days off, burning PTO time for sick kids, summer vacations, holiday breaks, ect. A shit load of work for really almost no money back in your pocket. Plus if you eak up into that $130k range then you've lost out on child credits for income taxes, student loans can no longer be deducted and some other credits are phased out, if not gone entirely making that bump in income almost useless too.

That income range between 90k & 150k or so for a joint household with kids is almost meaningless as the difference is just sucked up in costs to support the dual incomes, taxes, and loss of credits. You have to really get over the hump of where two working parents is worthwhile from a monetary standpoint.

 

[Hmongkeysauce]

Sometimes, I wish the wife and I can get out of Socal as well. My daily commute is 120 miles and 5 hours total. We chose this way because our home is closer to her work (her daily commute is 20 miles) and COL is much lower where we live vs where I work.

 

[vi edit]

Sometimes, I wish the wife and I can get out of Socal as well. My daily commute is 120 miles and 5 hours total. We chose this way because our home is closer to her work (her daily commute is 20 miles) and COL is much lower where we live vs where I work.

That's not a life, and not sustainable.

The last place my wife and I lived we were 20 miles away from work. And that was too much. Our daughter went to school another 5 miles opposite our direction to work. My son went to daycare across the street from where my wife worked which was 5 miles south of where I worked. On days she worked 2nd shift I needed to drive 20 miles to work. Then 5 miles south to get my son. Then 25 miles west to get my daughter. Then another 5 miles back to my house. That's a 55 mile loop. And I did that 4-5 days a week, every third week or so. I HATED IT. Anytime we needed to do anything "in town" it was 20 miles in, and 20 miles back. It was impossible to get my daughter into any sort of activities after school since we had to drive home and then back in. We were just miserable. There were other factors at play too including my wife's growing dissatisfaction with her employment and the obnoxiously high property taxes in IL (we paid over $10k a year in property taxes).

But we upped and moved our family to another state. We're now in Kentucky and living in a city where we can car pool most days of the week. Instead of driving upwards of 100 miles a day between the two of us, we are driving 50 miles *A WEEK*. We get more sleep at night since we don't have to leave as early. We are both home in the morning and at dinner time to help out with kids. Both my son's daycare and my daughters school are right in line with our work route so no major backtracking. And about anything we need for daily living is within 5 minutes.

But we had to up and move our family 400 miles away to do that. We chose quality of life and scheduling at the loss of about $20,000 a year in income.

Almost all of my family was back where we moved from so it was not a small deal. Moving is an option, most people just don't want to do it.

 

[doubledeluxe]

Sometimes, I wish the wife and I can get out of Socal as well. My daily commute is 120 miles and 5 hours total. We chose this way because our home is closer to her work (her daily commute is 20 miles) and COL is much lower where we live vs where I work.

That sounds like a terrible quality of life.

I totally understand living in a low cost area and working in a high cost area but in Southern California there is no mass transit so you're in a car and pretty much non-productive. At least try to listen to podcasts or learn a foreign language.

If you live in a place that has proper mass transit you can save a lot of energy and work on the way to work or read or play a videogame for all I care. But 5 hours? That's 5 hours you could be spending with the wife and kids.

 

[vi edit]

If you live in a place that has proper mass transit you can save a lot of energy and work on the way to work or read or play a videogame for all I care. But 5 hours? That's 5 hours you could be spending with the wife and kids.

And it's not even that, it's the stress and anxiety of being in a car that long and the toll on your body and mind. If you have to be in to work at 8, you have to leave *BY* 5:30. that means you need to get up at 5:00AM at the latest. Best case scenario you leave at 4:30 on the money and don't get pulled into any last minute meetings or calls. And you get home at 7:00. That's a 14 hour day. You still have to get dinner. Tuck kids in. Mow the yard. Whatever else needs to be done. Good luck finding a time to exercise. Relax. Enjoy time with your kids or family. That's a good way to develop an anxiety disorder by the age of 30 and chronic blood pressure issues.

If there's any traffic problems or bad weather or then you are proper fucked for the day.

Just. No. Nothing is worth that. Quit or move.

 

[doubledeluxe]

That's not even life to me. That's indentured servitude. If your entire life revolves around work you're doing something wrong.

Not that it's easy to change that. However if you consider the amount of effort you're putting into working and living your life right now then imagine adding to it for the short term to find a better job and then getting to enjoy life again?

 

[alkemyst]

I am a consulting engineer. Commuting is a lot about time and not miles so much.

One of my main job sites is about 60miles away, but it's a straight 80 MPH shot with no traffic. The hours are only about 10pm to 3:30pm as well.

Sometimes I have to head to Miami, I try to flex my shift to start late and stay a little late...in rush hour 60 miles there can be a 3 hour drive. Those are rare.

I like my job though and a lot of times I am just working from home, like today. I can be on webex's all day long and be productive on other things.

The rest of my week is 2 days 10 mins away and 1 day about 20 mins away.

 

[vi edit]

I am a consulting engineer. Commuting is a lot about time and not miles so much.

Are you 1099'd or Corp to Corp though? At least you could write off your miles if you were consulting.

 

[Hmongkeysauce]

That sounds like a terrible quality of life.

I totally understand living in a low cost area and working in a high cost area but in Southern California there is no mass transit so you're in a car and pretty much non-productive. At least try to listen to podcasts or learn a foreign language.

If you live in a place that has proper mass transit you can save a lot of energy and work on the way to work or read or play a videogame for all I care. But 5 hours? That's 5 hours you could be spending with the wife and kids.

I'm actually using public transportation and it's working quite well. Public transportation takes me to the front door of my work place and I only have to drive 15 miles to catch the Metro Link so it's not half bad.

In reality, though, I wish I would had never taken this job. The plan, when I accepted the job, was to have the wife find a job closer to my current job so we can move. But after a year, plans change and we may just look at getting out of socal completely.

 

[alkemyst]

Are you 1099'd or Corp to Corp though? At least you could write off your miles if you were consulting.

Consulting <> self-employeed.

I am a W2 employee. My mileage outside my normal commute to my office (30miles) is paid at government rates.

 

[OverVolt]

It seems you are quoting the costs of tuition based on the #1 google link which is reporting a very high tuition cost

http://education.costhelper.com/pharmacy-school.html

State pharmacy colleges will run you about $15-80k for the 4 years of pharmacy school. Private schools/out of state public tuition $80-160k. His $170k figure is very high and he doesn't even quote what school, nor did he complete the education to know for sure.

Also many retail chains will subsidize your education.

Back in the early 90's I was slated to be a Pharmacist. I was accepted to both University of Florida's and University of Miami/Nova's SECOGS school at the times prior to completing my AA degree.

I had a deal from Eckerds (which is now CVS) that had me on a $125k salary with bonuses, based on grade level much of my education costs covered (there was a 5 or 10 year guarantee that I had to work for the chain though) and a $25,000 signing bonus.

It was a great deal at the time. Unfortunately, my first wife ended up breaking her neck the spring break before I started the program and we had to relocate for what became a six month+ recovery.

$10k/year living costs mang, plus my undergrad debt ($20k) plus the interest thats accruing over 4 years. Did I mention I'd need a new car in 4 years so I'd be paying loans with loans? Awesome!

Also in the early 2000's pharmacists were getting nice sign on bonuses I know. Thats not true in 2014, things change. If anything I actually know of new grads willing to take $60k in long term care. 100% the reality. $100k is being generous because thats the BLS data but thats not really what the new grads get anymore.

 

[vi edit]

Also in the early 2000's pharmacists were getting nice sign on bonuses I know. Thats not true in 2014, things change. If anything I actually know of new grads willing to take $60k in long term care. 100% the reality. $100k is being generous because thats the BLS data but thats not really what the new grads get anymore.

My wife is a Pharmacist. She graduated in 2004 and did a residency until 2005. She's a clinical pharmacist and took a job with a private hospital post residency. She got a $20,000 sign on bonus. She had classmates signing on with Walgreens in certain markets for a $40,000 bonus. One of those markets was Milwaukee. In Phoenix you might only get $15,000. It was very regional.

Since then they've opened up pharmacy mills cranking out hundreds of new PharmD's a year and traditional schools have creeped up in class sizes. My wife graduated with around $90k in loans and got in at 2.25% interest. She had several coworkers that got hired on in the last few years that were at $120k-$150k and at 6% or higher. Their payments are close to $2000 a month. My wife pays $380 a month at a fixed rate for 30 years. It's not worth it to refi given the interest rate.

At her last job after about 10 years of being there she was making around $125k base and could pull in another $800 gross per shift for working overtime. Highly skilled clinical pharmacists are still in demand.

 

[OverVolt]

My wife is a Pharmacist. She graduated in 2004 and did a residency until 2005. She's a clinical pharmacist and took a job with a private hospital post residency. She got a $20,000 sign on bonus. She had classmates signing on with Walgreens in certain markets for a $40,000 bonus. One of those markets was Milwaukee. In Phoenix you might only get $15,000. It was very regional.

Since then they've opened up pharmacy mills cranking out hundreds of new PharmD's a year and traditional schools have creeped up in class sizes. My wife graduated with around $90k in loans and got in at 2.25% interest. She had several coworkers that got hired on in the last few years that were at $120k-$150k and at 6% or higher. Their payments are close to $2000 a month. My wife pays $380 a month at a fixed rate for 30 years. It's not worth it to refi given the interest rate.

At her last job after about 10 years of being there she was making around $125k base and could pull in another $800 gross per shift for working overtime. Highly skilled clinical pharmacists are still in demand.

Oh wow 10 years of clinical experience as a new grad?

Kidding