My first custom loop. Help me do a shiny!

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
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I'm looking for suggestions for my first ever water loop. My coal is to buy a new case and build a loop for the CPU and GPU's in my sig. I guess my starting point should be the case, but I could use a hand in choosing one.
Corsair has a nice, huge case but its like $400.00 or so, and I just won't spend that on a case. I will spend up to about $300.00 though, so I am aiming for a high end case to support two radiators, but not the ultra high end like the flag ship corsair.
I am kind of price conscious at the moment, but I won't buy junk. I'm ready to do this right, but I don't need the most expensive stuff just for the sake of having it. That's all I'm saying. For instance, I can do without gold plated tube fittings or similar stuff
The reason I am price conscious is because I spent a big chunk of my allowance on the acer monitor and GPUs in my sig, not to mention a gym in my garage! So, My personal "blow it" money has taken a big hit, but I can squeeze in a good loop (with your help that is).
So, how about that dual rad supporting case?
 
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aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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i dont think u can go cheap... XD

i always tell people whatever budget u set, always add 40% more from pure greed.

But waterblocks just for your gpu's will cost 250 dollars on the pair...
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,785
1,500
126
i dont think u can go cheap... XD

i always tell people whatever budget u set, always add 40% more from pure greed.

But waterblocks just for your gpu's will cost 250 dollars on the pair...

. . . and not even counting your remarks about reference design cards.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
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i dont think u can go cheap... XD

i always tell people whatever budget u set, always add 40% more from pure greed.

But waterblocks just for your gpu's will cost 250 dollars on the pair...

Can $800-$1,000 do a good job? The only thing that sucks is the blocks are useless when you upgrade GPU's. This will add cost to each GPU upgrade cycle, but if I stick with the big die releases and only upgrade on major architectural releases, I think I can live with this.

. . . and not even counting your remarks about reference design cards.

I have reference design cards. Am I screwed? They seem to clock pretty well so I think I'm ok there.
 
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guskline

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2006
5,338
476
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moonbogg, my Thermaltake Core X9 case was @$170 with tax at Microcenter.

Go to EK's website and use their gpu cooling configurator. What specific 980TI's did you get? I can help.

I'll give you an idea of other costs.

cpu block @$75

360mm radiator @$80-120 a piece (I paid @$130 per rad for my XSPC RX480s)

D5 pump @$90

Reservoir (varies) but at least $60

gpu blocks @$120 each

fittings at least $60

tubing @$25

I use ONLY distilled water plus a 99% silver coil ($7) plus dead water drops ($6).

Hopes this helps.
 

guskline

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2006
5,338
476
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i dont think u can go cheap... XD

i always tell people whatever budget u set, always add 40% more from pure greed.

But waterblocks just for your gpu's will cost 250 dollars on the pair...


So true! Expensive "addiction":biggrin:
 

guskline

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2006
5,338
476
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moonbogg, it's not a "showpiece" but here's a picture of my Thermaltake case for my rig below:
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,587
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I have a hard time recommending Thermaltake given how blatantly they've been stealing designs lately and reacted to the situation at Computex, but 800-1000 is plenty of budget for a nice loop. The 750D would hold plenty of rad for two 980Tis, and it's considerably cheaper than the 900D. The Phanteks Enthoo Primo is in your budget as well and is supposed to be a wonderful case for water cooling.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
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This is all very encouraging. I got the reference 980ti's. The Corsair 750D looks perfect, but the front looks closed off and solid. How can you have fans under the front panel? Won't they get blocked off?
Guskline, thanks for the pricing info. This is looking very doable. I'll check out the configurator when I get home. Also, nice rig. Looks beasty.

Also, how are the fans controlled on the rads? Do I need something to monitor temps and control fans so I can set a fan curve? Do I need something like corsair link commander unit?

Another question. After the water hits the CPU, its going to get warmed up. Does it go straight to the GPUs from there? Or does it hit the cpu, get cooled by a rad, then hit the GPUs and then cooled by another rad before being recycled?
 
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guskline

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2006
5,338
476
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This is all very encouraging. I got the reference 980ti's. The Corsair 750D looks perfect, but the front looks closed off and solid. How can you have fans under the front panel? Won't they get blocked off?
Guskline, thanks for the pricing info. This is looking very doable. I'll check out the configurator when I get home. Also, nice rig. Looks beasty.

Also, how are the fans controlled on the rads? Do I need something to monitor temps and control fans so I can set a fan curve? Do I need something like corsair link commander unit?

Another question. After the water hits the CPU, its going to get warmed up. Does it go straight to the GPUs from there? Or does it hit the cpu, get cooled by a rad, then hit the GPUs and then cooled by another rad before being recycled?[/QUOTE

I have my fans all controlled by a 6 channel NZXT fan controller with 2 fans per channel. I'm using AP15 Gentle Typhoons which are some of the best fans made for static pressure.
As to water flow, my flow comes from my dual D-5 pumps in series to all my rads the the cpu to gpu1 then gpu2 then back to my pump/ reservoir combo. The temp variation is nominal thoughout the loop.
cpu temps of the hottest core at 4.4 Ghz never exceeds mid 60s while the temp of my gous at max is low 40s.
I also have a temp probe in the loop to monitor the water temp in the loop compared yo the ambient temp.
 
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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Also, how are the fans controlled on the rads? Do I need something to monitor temps and control fans so I can set a fan curve? Do I need something like corsair link commander unit?

In my opinion, that depends on how you want to control your pumps. If your pumps are basic no-control models, then you'll most likely want a high-amperage fan controller. I'm not really talking about anything crazy, but the super cheap fan controllers can't handle pump power! However, they also have PWM-controlled pumps and pumps that can be manually controlled via a dial.

If you don't need a controller for the pumps, just control the fans however you want. You could buy fans that spin at a low speed already (to keep the noise down) or just use a basic (cheap) fan controller.

Another question. After the water hits the CPU, its going to get warmed up. Does it go straight to the GPUs from there? Or does it hit the cpu, get cooled by a rad, then hit the GPUs and then cooled by another rad before being recycled?

There is only one order that matters in a loop: the reservoir (or fill port if you're not using a reservoir) should always come vertically before the pump. Pumps cannot be run without water, or you'll ruin it, so by putting the reservoir right before the pump, you ensure that the water goes straight to it when filled.

As for the temperature differences, they're pretty much negligible. As long as your flow is good, the water temperature should equalize well and only see a slight increase after exiting a block. So, will it affect the GPU? Yeah, most likely very slightly. However, it's hard to truly setup a loop in your head until you have a case and can plan where the radiators will go.

My loop went... Res -> Pump + Pump -> Radiator -> GPU -> CPU -> Radiator -> Res. This photo is a bit old (it was before I removed the second radiator at the bottom), but it's close enough.

Oh, and chances are I'm still going to be selling some of my older things like a CPU block and maybe the pumps. Still haven't decided if I want to go back to water, and since used pumps don't fetch much (about 50-60% MSRP), it doesn't seem as good of an idea. :hmm:
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
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Are the dual pumps for redundancy? If one fails, will the other be able to push the water through the broken pump?
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,587
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Are the dual pumps for redundancy? If one fails, will the other be able to push the water through the broken pump?

Dual pumps will increase the available pressure, so it's good for running restrictive loops. It's like a 1.5V battery that can put out 1A, if you put two in series you'll still get 1A but 3V. Not quite that simple since you will get more flow in a given loop since each pump sees less backpressure, but you get the basic idea. It also adds redundancy, depending on how the one fails your loop will keep working just a reduced flow rate.

Martin's Liquid Lap had a good test on series vs parallel pumps and the benefits.
https://martinsliquidlab.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/pump-setup-series-vs-parallel/comment-page-2/
 

guskline

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2006
5,338
476
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MrTeal: 2 comments. First I just saw the controversy concerning Caselabs accusations that Thermaltake copied their designs. If true, it's upsetting. However, the Core X9 is a GREAT case if you have the room to use to build a water cooling unit considering the case. I won't knock the Corsair 750D. However, the room for rads etc in the X9 is incredible.

Second, I commend you for mentioning martinsliquidlabs. An incredibly good resource for water coolers.

I used 2 pumps only because at the time I was using an external WaterCool MORA-3-420Pro rad in addition to an internal XSPC RX360 rad and wanted the flow rate and pressure to be higher. I had a CoolerMaster 932 Advance case which was not the greatest for internal rad capacity.

Admittedly some of us (me HAHA) can go crazy on rad capacity. However, I find from personal experience it is best to buy the largest case you can find and afford, both in price and space if you want to custom water cool. The "itch" to add more rad capacity is a by product of custom water coolers. The trend now is to make thing smaller and smaller.
In moonboggs case, I just suggest he understand that having that room to add 2 360 rads really gives him flexibility when water cooling.
 

guskline

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2006
5,338
476
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moonbogg, simply put, for a single cpu block and 2 gpu blocks a single D5 pump is plenty.
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,108
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$1000 can do it. Fittings can push you over though if you decide to go with compression. Also buy twice as much tube as you need, it's cheap and if you make mistakes or want to change something, you want lots on hand instead of having to order more and wait.

Also get a tube cutter; http://www.performance-pcs.com/xspc-hose-cutter-0-to-25mm-diameter.html They're cheap and make cutting your tubing nice, clean and your tube will always fit flush to your fittings.

I would get a D5 pump, the DDC pumps are noisy. Consider a reservoir that has a mount for your D5 pump as well, it eliminates a having to find a spot for your pump in your case. Just mount your reservoir in a good spot and the pump is part of that assembly.
 

PhIlLy ChEeSe

Senior member
Apr 1, 2013
962
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I'd suggest leaving the GPU'S on stock cooler, simply cause the blocks are not re useable usually and go down in price soon after purchased. Also don't use rigid tubing and to hell with compression fittings(save $200), use a spare PSU to test for leaks prior to powering up the system.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
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Can you fit two 480's in that X9? I'm thinking two 120mm fans per component, plus two extra just 'cause. Eight fans with 45m radiators. That's what I must have. Thick, beefy, monstrous cooling. I mean, might as well, right?
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
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BUMP! Also, I'm going to start buying stuff I know I will nee, like the water blocks for the cards and CPU. This will et some things out of the way and clear my head a little. One question about the GPU water blocks. Are back plates actually useful or necessary? The only waterblock for titan-X/980ti is the EK block, and they suggest a backplate (of course they suggest it, but that's why I'm asking).
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,108
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Backplates are for looks, they help a bit with cooling I guess, but mostly for looks. I guess if you're clumsy in your case and drop things in there they protect the back of your cards as well.

They might protect your card in the case of a leak if it's just minor and is dripping on the back of them, idk. I use them because I like the look of them, no other reason.
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,587
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Even with a full coverage block, the backplate can help significantly with VRM cooling.

Active vs Passive backplate doesn't seem to make much difference since it's not really the backplate that is doing the cooling, but it does keep the PCB from flexing and gives better contact between the VRM fets and the full contact block.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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on koolance blocks you recycle the stock backplate.

Backplates are OK... there not really needed unless you have memory on the backside of the card in which then they help cooling the ram on the other side.

They also allow a more rigid mounting to compress the card between the block as well.


Last note, dont always go with best and top performance as the difference is a down to a few C's.... i would personally go with what u think looks nice, and then second performance, unless the block is terrible, which most arent now.

If your going to invest a lot of money on this, you may as well make it looks nice to your aesthetics.

Can you fit two 480's in that X9? I'm thinking two 120mm fans per component, plus two extra just 'cause. Eight fans with 45m radiators. That's what I must have. Thick, beefy, monstrous cooling. I mean, might as well, right?

yeah according to gusk, he managed to sneak in 2 x 480's.
Although i dont think you will require that much cooling potential.
A single 360 is overkill on a CPU alone, and a single 360 should handle your gpu's in SLI without much problems.
The only added benefit of having oversize rads, in overkill proportions is the fact you can down volt your fans to a quiter setting.
However if you ever wanted to change cases, you will be in tough luck finding one which can handle a 480 natively.

Are the dual pumps for redundancy? If one fails, will the other be able to push the water through the broken pump?

dual pumps give 2x head pressure and a increase of 1/3rd more flow.
Dual pumps were mostly used in the old days when we had restrictive cpu blocks, and other things which ate head pressure.
Increase of flow, makes your system overall more efficient.
As you get more flow, you get more holding potential in water.
Water works on a sense of equilibrium, until u exceed the holding potential of water where then you will form a gradient.

That typical number in which you will have a temp gradient off a single pump is 260-350W depending on cpu block and flow.
That basically means if you have a heat source that high, the temp of water will increase 1C after it has passed though that component.
Typically no CPU's now can dish out that heat range, so having your CPU block first will not impact the system in any noticable degree.
The only time where you will see a noticable amount is if your running quadsli / quadfire , where if all 4 of your gpu's were loaded, the water coming out of the cards would be increased more then a couple C, which can translate to a increased CPU temp. The best way to minimize this effect would be to increase flow, or put more pumps in a short version.

This is where u will get into a lot of debates about running multi loops.
Most occasions a single loop is the far easiest. The temp difference between multi and single are very small as well, unless again, we are talking about big big heat loads.
Multi loops do however allow a better sense of control and fine tuning, however this will go into the advance stages of watercooling, where you are a perfectionist, and want the perfect efficient setup.
(incase ur wondering i have 3 loops, 6 pumps, 4 radiators and 3 reservoirs with a total coolant capacity of 2/3rds a gallon... yes its quite overkill, but i wanted the perfect system.)

Dual pumps also help with redundancy so you minimize down time.
Should a pump fail, you can still run on a "skeleton crew" until your replacement arrives.
This allows you to still have your system running doing all the tasks required without having to tear it down and wait for a new replacement.
I tell people think of a second pump as "insurance" because if we look at probability.... lets say you have 5% chance your pump will die... then you have 5% of 5% chance your second will die at the same time which probability plays in your favor. (unless u did something to damage the pumps and they both get damaged, like shove a piece of glass in the impeller)

To me it boils down to this..
If one has a 2000/3000/4000 dollar system, is 79 dollars extra really a problem?
That 79 dollars is a insurance that you wont have a downtime if and when a pump fails..
Most bay res's now have an option of dual pumps, so it wont even take up a lot of real estate inside the case.

Example of a dual pump bay res for both D5 and DDC:



The D5 vs DDC....
I love the D5, its a strong reliable pump built like a tank... however like a tank its BIG.
DDC's on the other hand, give a better head pressure, they are smaller, and can be fit almost anywhere...
They are now fairly reliable, however they tend to heat up, so its adviced you put them on heat sinks..

My DDC's with heat sinks...


Although i do like bay res's i do have some issues with them.... its namely the amount of liquid which can be stored.
The more Coolant u have, the longer hold time til equilibrium you will achieve... that means, it will take longer for the system to reach equalibirum, which is in net, the highest the temp your coolant will run.
Although it offers no performance benefits, having a big tube RES is quite eye candy...

 
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BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,785
1,500
126
This may also be about the level you're willing to invest to cover one dGPU model or similar, or some risk that the investment can't be carried over to another generation of GPUs. This may have been what Phily Cheese was saying, or a converse or corollary.

Not wanting to go off topic, but someone mentioned "backplates" and I assume these cooling blocks have a backplate in the assembly that bolts through existing holes in the PCB.

Did anyone notice the perforated boards they've added to some cards -- ostensibly to stiffen and support the weight? I thought I read someone's idea that they have "cooling functionality." They look like densely-pressed fiberboard, though. Still, something to make use of in channeling airflow -- if you wanted to.
 

gun5l1ng3r

Member
May 20, 2013
29
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0
Before you decide on using flexible tubing, look into rigid Acrylic Tubing. It takes a LOT more time to setup but I found that most flexible tubing 'fogged' up after only a month or two of using distilled water and Copper Sulfate only.

The acrylic tubes have to be heated and bent around mandrels (forms) or by freehand and they have to fit between the blocks and components with less than about 1mm of precision.

All of this makes it difficult to setup, but it looks SOOOOO much better, especially with a little Brite Green UV Dye in the water.

Also, I found that the acrylic tubing fittings are a bit cheaper. I used all Bitspower Enhanced Multi Link compression hard line fittings in the 16mm outside diameter variety.

PS: Use compression fittings if you use flexible tubing and if you go rigid acrylic, try and use the same brand of tubing and fittings so that they match as closely as possible.
 
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