My friend 'hates' God.

[wviperw]

lordmaul: I don't even know what you're trying to say in your post, what, with all the mispellings of "lose" Wanna rephrase your paragraph there so I know what you're saying. From what I can gather, you're stating something to the effect of Pascal's Wager.

 

[Pooteh]

Originally posted by: wviperw
lordmaul: I don't even know what you're trying to say in your post, what, with all the mispellings of "lose" Wanna rephrase your paragraph there so I know what you're saying. From what I can gather, you're stating something to the effect of Pascal's Wager.

lol yes that was the most pathetic attempts at pascals wager i've seen in a while

pascals wager is a system where you decide to believe in god as a bet at getting into heaven. a most shallow and pathetic reason for believing in something. any "god" worth anything would look at that shallowness and send u straight to heck


i believe in the eternal essense of pooteh. if it exists i win! if not, oh well.

oh yea, i'll believe in god, zeus, allah and whoever too.

i weally weally wanna go to heaven

teehee!


and from this site, the fallacies involved.


"Pascal's wager is Blaise Pascal's famous argument that belief in God is justified as a "good bet", regardless of any metaphysical uncertainty, because disbelief has great cost if wrong, while belief if wrong costs nothing. Pascal's wager suffers from the logical fallacy of False dilemma, relying on the assumption that the only possibilities are that the Christian God exists or that no God exists. The wager cannot rule out the possibility that there is a God who instead rewards skepticism and punishes blind faith, for example. It also says nothing about the actual existence or nonexistence of God. Finally, it ignores that there are indeed possible costs to belief in the form of opportunity costs: those who choose to believe in, say, scientific theories that may contradict scripture may be able to discover things and accomplish things the believer could not. "

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: LordMaul

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: LordMaul

Alrighty. I'll hypothetically give you 400 years to prove to me that there is no way God exists.

Yeah, I thought so. You can't.

You also can't prove there is a God in 400 years

.

But...since there is nothing you can point to and say "There is God beyond a doubt (this being irrefutable proof that no one could deny)", the burdon of proff necessarily is in your hands to prove that there is a God. It does not rest in those who don't believe in God.

Burden my ass. I don't have to prove sh!t.

If I can't prove my point, and you certainly can't prove your point (I mean, common. I could pull 6 million people out of the US who say God has affected their lives in some way so He exists in their opinion, but can you pull up 6 million who can say that for some reason or another, they have reasons to believe God doesn't exists...for any good reason? Not just "because I haven't seen him" or some bullcrap) then the person who would "loose out," so to speak, is the one who needs to try and find out anything possible...because if I'm saved, God exists, you're not, and I can't prove it to you.......who looses in the end?

Well, according to me, nobody "loses" because we are both dead and gone. According to you, "I" lose.

But I don't see how that has anything to do with proof for or against the existence of God, so what's your point?

 

[LordMaul]

Originally posted by: wviperw
lordmaul: I don't even know what you're trying to say in your post, what, with all the mispellings of "lose" Wanna rephrase your paragraph there so I know what you're saying. From what I can gather, you're stating something to the effect of Pascal's Wager.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that adding "o" twice in a sentence would redirect your attention completely so your comprehension is null. If we're going there, mind if I point out the horrible punctuation in your post...?

As for your Pascal's Wager, I was putting it in datalink's terms. Basically, with my believing in God, I can't **lose**. The positive side effects both while living and after death are obvious to me.

 

[fluxquantum]

nice statement, AlphaWolf829. that was well said.

 

[LordMaul]

Well, according to me, nobody "loses" because we are both dead and gone. According to you, "I" lose.

Pretty much. If you live your life without giving God the time of day, all while knowing of the possibility of his presence, you get eternal punishment should you be wrong. Either way, I win. If, as you say, God doesn't exist, then nothing happens and we both come back as maggots or something in the next life. If you're wrong...I am in heaven and obviously, you're not.

But I don't see how that has anything to do with proof for or against the existence of God, so what's your point?

Either way, without you accepting God, which you won't/can't do because you are in the mindset of the need of physical proof, which has been already pointed out as impossible for now, I can prove nothing to you. You're just like this guy's friend - set on the idea that everyone else is wrong and when you die, your body just shuts off, and noone can or will prove you otherwise.

So, in a nutshell, you can't prove sh!t to me, I can't prove sh!t to you, and in this pointless thread, no one wins.

 

[LordMaul]

Originally posted by: Pooteh

Originally posted by: LordMaul
Of course....as my post gets completely ignored....*cough*...

because your full of sh*t

i'll give you 1000 years to prove that god exists ok?

OK. Sure thing. Maybe it will happen...maybe it won't. There IS a possibility that within that timeframe, God will decide it is the time to act out the Revelations, but no matter how long I give you, you can't prove anything. Ever.


and i'll give you 400 years to prove that god isn't the eternal essense of pooteh.[/quote]

Whatever.

 

[mithrandir2001]

Aw, schucks. Missed another NART.

It's hard to hate something that doesn't exist. But I understand how it feels to hate blind faith. Atheism has a necessary role in making sure humankind stays grounded in rationality and reason, not angels, saints and fairy dust.

 

[PowerEngineer]

Originally posted by: LordMaul

So, in a nutshell, you can't prove sh!t to me, I can't prove sh!t to you, and in this pointless thread, no one wins.

This is a pointless thread, and no one's mind will be changed by anything said here.

Even so, I'll waste my time by pointing out that agnostics like myself could come to believe in "God" if we were shown sufficient proof. What is sufficient? For me, it'd be something like Carl Sagan's idea in Contact (it was NOT in the movie, you have to read the book) where a picture of a circle is found as an array of 0's and 1's beyond the millionth digit past the decimal point in pi. On the other hand, there is nothing that can change the mind of a "true believer".

I guess this means this is even more pointless for me than for you!

 

[datalink7]

Pretty much. If you live your life without giving God the time of day, all while knowing of the possibility of his presence, you get eternal punishment should you be wrong. Either way, I win. If, as you say, God doesn't exist, then nothing happens and we both come back as maggots or something in the next life. If you're wrong...I am in heaven and obviously, you're not.

Maybe I won't get eternal punishment. I can consider, just for the sake of argument or possibility, that God exists. But even if I would be willing to consider this possibility, I would refuse to believe that this all powerful, all loving, all knowing God would be so petty as to put good people out of heaven just because they don't believe in him/her/whatever.

Perhaps there is a sort of "Purgatory" where one must stay and think upon their actions before getting to heaven. But never being allowed in just because you didn't believe in God? I really, seriously doubt it in the extreme.

I am a good person. I try really hard to be a good person in my life. One doesn't need religion to be a good person. And I don't think, if there is a God and a heaven, that good people who don't believe in God wouldn't get into heaven, while people who are less good would get in merely on the basis that they believe in God.

Either way, without you accepting God, which you won't/can't do because you are in the mindset of the need of physical proof, which has been already pointed out as impossible for now, I can prove nothing to you. You're just like this guy's friend - set on the idea that everyone else is wrong and when you die, your body just shuts off, and noone can or will prove you otherwise.

I'll accept logical proff in place of direct physical proff as well

Of cource that gets us nowhere

And I'm not so much "set on the idea" so much as I dont' see any reason to believe otherwise. If somone would really show me that I am wrong, I would change my views. I have changed them before on many issues when someone shows me where my logic has been flawed or where theres is superior. I'm not adverse to change in the slightest.

And when did this whole subject become the object of "winning" or "losing" anyway? Like the whole object of life is to "win" the prize or something? (this being heaven).

To quote Einstein:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would
indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment
and hope of reward after death."
-Albert Einstein

Is the only thing keeping your morality in place that hope of the greatest reward (heaven) and the fear of that greatest punishment (hell)?

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: Athlon4all
and thus it is God's word and he is perfect, and thus his word's are true.

Then how do you explain the contradictions in the bible? If God is love, why does God kill or order people to kill thousands and thousands of people (including children) in the bible?

 

[Athlon4all]

So, in a nutshell, you can't prove sh!t to me, I can't prove sh!t to you, and in this pointless thread, no one wins.

Actually, those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior win, and sadly, everyone else is dammned to hell.

So how do you know WHICH 'bible' to have faith in?

The true, Divinely Inspired Word of God, and I think you and everyone else here knows that I meant the Holy Bible. It is the onlky one that is divinely inspired from God.

Oh, it MUST be the Holy Bible, because thats what you grew up on, and thats what you know about, right?

God Bless ym parents for giving me a sound Biblical foundation, but I still have had to decide for myself whether to believe or not. We cannot "inherit" salvation, we have to believe for ourselves. There was a time when I wasn't a believer. I was looking to get away from it all, but, the Lord brought me to him and I truely accepted Christ as my Personal Lord and Savior.

I am a good person. I try really hard to be a good person in my life. One doesn't need religion to be a good person. And I don't think, if there is a God and a heaven, that good people who don't believe in God wouldn't get into heaven, while people who are less good would get in merely on the basis that they believe in God.

And I have the following verses for you:

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me." Jesus is the only way to get to the Father (which is in heaven)!!!
Galatians 2:15 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. " Works won't save you. Your being a "good person" can't save you. Only Faith through Jesus Christ can save you.
Ephesians 2:8-9For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Again, same thing. Works can't save you from your sins, and you will die if you still have your sins.....
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord!!!"

I ask you, where do you base your beliefs about heaven? Are they based on anything except personal opinion? What about what God has said in the Bible? I will be praying for you.

Then how do you explain the contradictions in the bible? If God is love, why does God kill or order people to kill thousands and thousands of people (including children) in the bible?

They aren't contradictions, but rather they compliment each other. God does love man, but he cannot look upon sin, and bad things that happen, he uses to bring people to him.

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: Athlon4all
They aren't contradictions, but rather they compliment each other

Really???

 

[Athlon4all]

I see several cases in those "contradictions" where God is specifically commanding his people to do things. He can do what ever he wants, and while he does love all emn, those who don't love him don't necessarily have his blessing. Romans 8:28 says And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." You are just being used by the devil to try to get me to waver in my faith and it has been unsuccessful. Another thing is that the man who wwrtoe the page says that "People who are free of theological bias notice that the bible contains hundreds of discrepancies. " Well guess what? All men are biased towards theior personal belief's. He is biased likely towards his personal belief that the Bible hasn't been given by divine inspiration. I'm going to stop right here.

 

[ChurchOfSubgenius]

Originally posted by: Robor
I don't hate "God", but I'm not a God fearing person, do not practice any organized religion, and base my beliefs on what I've learned and see in life today. Instead of following some ancient religious guidelines I try to live my life in a way that both makes me happy and is considerate of others. Call me a heathen for my thinking but I know plenty of people who consider themselves "good Christians" but judge and even hate others based on their different religous faith, race, sexual preference, etc. I may not go to church but I know I'm a good person and although I may not be perfect I try do my best to correct my flaws and help others.

I didn't answer your question there though. In my opinion, too many people blame and/or praise god for things in life today. If something good happens, "Praise God". If something bad happens, "why didn't God save them?". Sounds too easy to me. IMO, your friend needs to get his own life back on track and blaming God isn't going to help. Tell him that as bad as his situation may seem it could be a lot worse. Just show him some families starving to death in 3rd world countries or people born with severe disabilities. All it would take is a quick scan through cable or a trip to the local hospital. Just visit a burn unit or show him a child born with a terminal illness and ask him if his life is so bad after that. Self pity is not the answer. Sorry to be blunt but that's reality.

Amen brother.

you could also ask him how it's possible to hate something he doesn't beleive in.

sounds more like he's pushing your buttons

 

[Pooteh]

Originally posted by: LordMaul

Originally posted by: wviperw
lordmaul: I don't even know what you're trying to say in your post, what, with all the mispellings of "lose" Wanna rephrase your paragraph there so I know what you're saying. From what I can gather, you're stating something to the effect of Pascal's Wager.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that adding "o" twice in a sentence would redirect your attention completely so your comprehension is null. If we're going there, mind if I point out the horrible punctuation in your post...?

As for your Pascal's Wager, I was putting it in datalink's terms. Basically, with my believing in God, I can't **lose**. The positive side effects both while living and after death are obvious to me.

actually you can. your logic is faulty. apparently you read my post at the top of the page, blew your mind and then went into denial.

here you go again.

and from this site, the fallacies involved.


"Pascal's wager is Blaise Pascal's famous argument that belief in God is justified as a "good bet", regardless of any metaphysical uncertainty, because disbelief has great cost if wrong, while belief if wrong costs nothing. Pascal's wager suffers from the logical fallacy of False dilemma, relying on the assumption that the only possibilities are that the Christian God exists or that no God exists. The wager cannot rule out the possibility that there is a God who instead rewards skepticism and punishes blind faith, for example. It also says nothing about the actual existence or nonexistence of God. Finally, it ignores that there are indeed possible costs to belief in the form of opportunity costs: those who choose to believe in, say, scientific theories that may contradict scripture may be able to discover things and accomplish things the believer could not. "

and i'll give you 400 years to prove that god isn't the eternal essense of pooteh.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whatever.

you dismiss the eternal essense of pooteh? There IS a possibility that within that timeframe, The Eternal Essense of Pooteh will decide it is the time to reveal his devine presence, but no matter how long I give you, you can't prove anything. Ever.

Actually, those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior win, and sadly, everyone else is dammned to hell.

oh, so this is an all knowing all powerful, all loving god? doesn't seem like it, more like a egotistical monster. someone that judges not upon the content of ones character, but by some arbitrary tributary belief is pathetic.

 

[wviperw]

lordmaul: LOL, I was joking about the "lose" thing. About pascal's wager though, it doesn't work for precisely the reason in quotes pooteh gave you. It assumes there either is a god or isn't a god. It doesn't take into consideration who this god is. Also, just knowing there is a god won't necessarily get you into heaven. According to any 'scriptures', such as the koran or bible, you must actually do something more than just admit there is a god. For example, w/ the bible you have to admit that jesus died on the cross, etc. Lastly, the whole idea of 'betting' doesn't work. For if you bet on something, you ackowledge that you do not know FOR SURE if that thing exists/will occur. Therefore, if a requirement of 'heaven' is to KNOW that god exists, using pascals wager could not possibly be a way to arrive at that truth.

-----

Athlon4all:

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So how do you know WHICH 'bible' to have faith in?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The true, Divinely Inspired Word of God, and I think you and everyone else here knows that I meant the Holy Bible. It is the onlky one that is divinely inspired from God.
Quote

You didn't answer the question. How do you know which 'bible' is divinely inspired? You can go on all day giving me answers like "you must have faith in the one true word of god", but that still doesn't tell me which 'bible' to believe in.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, it MUST be the Holy Bible, because thats what you grew up on, and thats what you know about, right?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God Bless ym parents for giving me a sound Biblical foundation, but I still have had to decide for myself whether to believe or not. We cannot "inherit" salvation, we have to believe for ourselves. There was a time when I wasn't a believer. I was looking to get away from it all, but, the Lord brought me to him and I truely accepted Christ as my Personal Lord and Savior.

Yes you still decide for yourself what to believe. But my point is that your surroundings, your environment, everything that you know, will have an immense effect on this decision.

 

[JupiterJones]

Is there anyway I can give him advise, or some guidence to even a little bit of faith? Or anything for that matter....

I apologize for not reading the entire post. I have just seen it and only have about ten minutes.

The question here Uberdave, is what you believe concerning God. If you believe in God as revealed in the Holy Bible, then you believe that only God can change hearts and/or bestow the gift of faith. The only effective thing that you can do is to pray for him. Since God is sovereign, it is only sensible to place this matter in his hands. Should you feel lead to share your faith again, maybe his heart will have been softened. Remember that the only mistake you can make when witnessing is to not do it.

 

[Athlon4all]

You didn't answer the question. How do you know which 'bible' is divinely inspired? You can go on all day giving me answers like "you must have faith in the one true word of god", but that still doesn't tell me which 'bible' to believe in.

II Timothy 3:16 as I've already said, but you will want a different answer as well. Truth is, you are looking for an answer that you won't get.

 

[Red Dawn]

Remember that the only mistake you can make when witnessing is to not do it.

Wrong, witnessing to me in my face would be a horrid mistake, one that very well could get your ass kicked if you don't cease when I tell you too. Of course it could be worse, you could do it to one of those Muslims whackos in Indonesia and lose your head over it.

 

[wviperw]

II Timothy 3:16 as I've already said, but you will want a different answer as well. Truth is, you are looking for an answer that you won't get.

Hey, you just answered the question!! Not with the first sentence, because you of course can't use scripture to prove that scripture is the truth. But your second sentence: looking for an answer that you won't get. Have you thought about what you just said? You just told me that there isn't a way to figure out which text is the true one to follow. Do you get that? So if there ISN'T a way, then how can you claim the bible is the divinely inspired text? Faith? No siree. Because faith is based on either logic or an assumption (ultimately), and your logic/assumption is based on your surroundings, which can't be necessarily trusted.

 

[Pooteh]

well i guess faith is hopeful ignorance eh ?

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Remember that the only mistake you can make when witnessing is to not do it.

Wrong, witnessing to me in my face would be a horrid mistake, one that very well could get your ass kicked if you don't cease when I tell you too. Of course it could be worse, you could do it to one of those Muslims whackos in Indonesia and lose your head over it.

pics??

 

[Gooberlx2]

Works won't save you. Your being a "good person" can't save you. Only Faith through Jesus Christ can save you.

Oh so it's a "either you're with us or you're against us" sort of thing. Gee, that sucks for people who live in areas of the world where the mere concept of Christianity and Jesus Christ don't exist.

I can imagine the conversation at the gates now (if there is a heaven).

Clickity-Clack-Knock-Knock (from some tribal area completely ignorant of western and/or eastern religious philosphy): Where am I?
Gatekeeper guy (God I guess): Heaven, where there is eternal reward. Doesn't matter you're going to hell anyway.
CCKK: Hell? WTF is that?
GK: A terrible place full of punishment.
CCKK: Uh.....and why I am going there?
GK: 'Cause you didn't believe in me.
CCKK: And who're you?
GK: God.
CCKK: Yeah, well I'm CCKK, nice to meet you. Can I go into that Heaven place now? Hell sounds kinda like a bummer.
GK: Nope sorry.
CCKK: But obviously I believe in you now, you're right in front of me.
GK: No-can-do, Official God policy states in laymen's (or athlon4all's) terms that you need to believe in God while you're on Earth, alive.
CCKK: Well wtf? I just met you two seconds ago. Nobody told me anything about you.
GK: Too bad.

 

[Athlon4all]

Hey, you just answered the question!! Not with the first sentence, because you of course can't use scripture to prove that scripture is the truth. But your second sentence: looking for an answer that you won't get. Have you thought about what you just said? You just told me that there isn't a way to figure out which text is the true one to follow. Do you get that? So if there ISN'T a way, then how can you claim the bible is the divinely inspired text? Faith? No siree. Because faith is based on either logic or an assumption (ultimately), and your logic/assumption is based on your surroundings, which can't be necessarily trusted.

I don't think you get it. This isn't about logic, this is about whats true, and I am convinced that the Bible is truely the Word of God and an incredible book that I am to live by and the Bible does say that I am to preach the gospel to every creature and thats what Im doing now.

well i guess faith is hopeful ignorance eh ?

No, Faith is believing in what we cannot see with our eyes. And in the case of Christianity, it is believing in what it truth although we cannot see it.

Oh so it's a "either you're with us or you're against us" sort of thing. Gee, that sucks for people who live in areas of the world where the mere concept of Christianity and Jesus Christ don't exist.

Thats right. Before you start cussing CHristianity, God has already done a lot more than we deserved. He should've never sent Jesus to die, becuse all of mankind should be comdemned to hell for our sin, but no, Jesus came and died so we could go to heaven, and here we are, the devil still has such a stranglehold on this world that millions still haven't believed. God may love us, but he is God and he demands obedience, and in return, we get to be in a wonderful relationship with him as our God and we get to go to heaven when we die. And actually, Im going to also say that the conversation you painted isn't quite what will happen. Man (Both the saved and unsaved) will be presented with the sins you have committe, and then he will say that you're going to hell for the unsaved. For the Believer's, he will see us as having righteousness because of Jesus' Blood, and that is how we will go to heaven, but for the unsaved, they don't have Jesus to cover their sins and thus they will go to Hell. Why risk it??? Jesus is ready to give you a better life!!!! If only you would accept it!!!!

I'm going to be out of town for the next few days, so you wont hear from me but I will be back