my mom just tried to tell me not to smoke...

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Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: conjur
And another one:

http://ash.org/etsreports.html

(specifically, http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/286/4/436)

Conclusions Passive smoking substantially reduced CFVR in healthy nonsmokers. This finding provides direct evidence that passive smoking may cause endothelial dysfunction of the coronary circulation in nonsmokers.

Also, the judge that vacated the EPA report is in North Carolina...a big tobacco state. Hmmmm.

He's a FEDERAL judge. He's not elected, he's got no political reason to vacate it. Care to try again? Are you suggesting that the Federal Judge was bribed?


Oh...there's no lobbying during the appointment process. All of politics are completely benign.

Lobbying for what? During he confirmation process? That's always partisan and politically based, and not based on the whims of lobbyist. Obviously you don't understand the court system, because it's not like the EPA or the suit filers could have picked which court it would be assigned to. It's random based n the docket. I'm not sure of the specificity of why it was done in that district, but I do know that lobbyists would have no reason to attempt to influence anyone during the confirmation process. I've never heard a judge be questioned in the Senate or make publicly known their feelings on tobacco or the EPA study. So, want to tell me now that the Dems and Reps colluded with some random judge in an attempt to overturn a flawed EPA study that was critisized by scientists?
 
Jan 31, 2002
40,819
2
0
Originally posted by: caitlion
1) do you drink wine? or just beer/liquor?
2)fast food and SODA are not the only things that are bad for you
3) yeah, i went over a curb last nite. granted, i was stoned. but you know. (this is gonna start a whole lot more flaming )

1) All of the above.
2) I named the big ones that most people binge to hell on. But if you have a whole list of stuff, fire away and I'll tell you what I do and don't consume regularily or at all.
3) Girls are only supposed to give road head when they're a passenger, not a driver.

- M4H
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
I felt this was worth reposting. It's something Amused posted before, but it explains why meta-analysis studies like the one IARC did don't give statistically valid data.





Double Standard:
Diesel Exhaust vs. Secondhand Smoke

Rajiv Bahia, Peggy Lopipero and Allan H. Smith
Epidemiology 1998;9:84-91
Debra T. Silverman
Epidemiology 1998;9:4-5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1993, EPA labeled secondhand smoke a "known human carcinogen." This was based on its analysis of about 30 epidemiologic studies of secondhand smoke and lung cancer. But 80 percent of the studies did not support EPA's decision. So how did EPA justify its conclusion?

EPA performed a "meta-analysis" of the studies. That is, the relative risks from the 30 studies were weighted, pooled and an "average" relative risk of 1.19 was calculated. And EPA concluded that secondhand smoke increased lung cancer risk 19 percent.

But this result was criticized because for a number of reasons, including:

Epidemiologic studies are not generally capable of reliably identifying small relative risks (i.e., less than 2.0).
None of the 30 studies used quantitative exposure data. All the studies used "guesstimated" exposure data.
The relative risk of 1.19 was not statistically significant at the conventional 95 percent level.
EPA underadjusted for the effect of smoking misclassification (i.e., the tendency for smokers to claim they are nonsmokers).
EPA (and the rest of the junk science world) chose to ignore these criticisms.

Now, consider a new study just published in the journal Epidemiology on diesel exhaust and lung cancer.

Researchers from the University of California (San Francisco) and the University of California (Berkeley) did a meta-analysis of 23 epidemiologic studies of diesel exhaust and lung cancer (Note: 7 other diesel exhaust/lung cancer studies were excluded from the meta-analysis, 6 of which did not support the researcher's ultimate conclusion).

The researchers reported a relative risk of 1.33 (95 percent confidence interval 1.24. - 1.44).

But in an accompanying editorial, the National Cancer Institute's Debra T. Silverman wrote:

Skepticism regarding the carcinogenicity to the lung of diesel exhaust in humans arises from three main concerns about the epidemiologic evidence. First, and probably most important, the magnitude of the effect observed in most studies is low, with relative risks (RRs) typically under 1.5. Second, of the 30 studies conducted on the relation between diesel exhaust and lung cancer, only four have obtained either quantitative data on current exposure or semiquantitative data on historical exposure. None has obtained quantitative data on historical exposure, the measure most relevant to the development of lung cancer...Third, the effect of cigarette smoking has been controlled in only about one-half the studies...
[The authors] conclude that the data support a causal association between diesel exhaust and lung cancer in humans. Has science proven causality beyond any reasonable doubt? Probably not. The repeated finding of small effects, coupled with the absence of quantitative data on historical exposure, precludes a causal interpretation.

How would Mr. Rogers would put it? "Can you say 'double-standard'?"
 

LSUfan

Golden Member
Jan 14, 2003
1,671
0
0
Originally posted by: caitlion
Originally posted by: ThaGrandCow
catlion... I am a smoker too.

I've tried to quit 17 times now, it never stayed... I regret almost every day having my first cigarette. If it's not too late, stop smoking. I'm currently trying to save up the $1000 for the pill that lets you quit cold turkey (I forget the name at the moment). Insurance does not cover this pill. Insurance does not cover this, nor did it cover all the other assorted patches and herbal pills I've spent money on over the years.

You're still living with your parents, that means that you haven't (hopefully) been smoking for too long, and you still have a choice. I hope you make the right choice that I did not make.

The thing that makes me sad is that someone gave me this exact same speech back when I was younger. I brushed them off and said "I'll quit anytime I feel like it, when I'm ready." I thought I was invincible and kept smoking. I'm almost certain this won't help you, as I'm just an anonymous person over the internet. Noone believes anything that people say on the internet, but I'm at least trying. I hope you make the decision I didn't make back when I had a chance.

thank you for not being a moron. and for the advice.

I wish you the best of luck. Smokers and Non-Smokers have posted their opinions here. If you are truly not hooked you can quit easily. I hope you make the right decision. If you are hooked seek help. It will save your life and make you desirable to more men. (No matter if they admit it or not). Again, Good Luck, LSUfan
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: conjur
And another one:

http://ash.org/etsreports.html

(specifically, http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/286/4/436)

Conclusions Passive smoking substantially reduced CFVR in healthy nonsmokers. This finding provides direct evidence that passive smoking may cause endothelial dysfunction of the coronary circulation in nonsmokers.

Also, the judge that vacated the EPA report is in North Carolina...a big tobacco state. Hmmmm.

He's a FEDERAL judge. He's not elected, he's got no political reason to vacate it. Care to try again? Are you suggesting that the Federal Judge was bribed?


BTW, I noticed you had nothing to say on the article linked.

Perhaps because it nullifies your argument.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
LOL! A one month study among 30 people nullifies my argument? Step down from your spaceship... And was does that article have to do with your statement that the judge threw the case out for a biased reason? I'd like evidence that he was unduly influenced.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
If we start with the hypothesis that smoking is harmful..

what possible mechanism would explain 2nd hand smoke being harmless ?


btw, I ask this as a philosophical question. My own practical experience is that 2nd hand smoke is extremely hazardous to my own personal health, at least short term, it causes me to cough and have difficulty breathing.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Yeah...the JAMA is a rag. That's what you're saying.


No, I'm saying you can't have much of a valid study with only 30 participants over 1 month. If you look at most studies done for medicine or side effects of a certain treatment you will see the sample group is always in the hundreds and NORMALLY in the thousands and it is done for an appreciable amount of time.
 

MAME

Banned
Sep 19, 2003
9,281
1
0
Mill, think about it. Those thousands of chemicals in the lungs...do you honestly think it wouldn't be detrimental to an inhaler's health?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: MAME
Mill, think about it. Those thousands of chemicals in the lungs...do you honestly think it wouldn't be detrimental to an inhaler's health?

Aww... you're on MY side. No, it doesn't quite work like that. Primary inhaler versus secondary smoke. Two different things.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: conjur
Yeah...the JAMA is a rag. That's what you're saying.


No, I'm saying you can't have much of a valid study with only 30 participants over 1 month. If you look at most studies done for medicine or side effects of a certain treatment you will see the sample group is always in the hundreds and NORMALLY in the thousands and it is done for an appreciable amount of time.

I'm sure we'll get to that point.

But, looking at that study and seeing dramatic effects after a short period of time, can you imagine what other ill effects will be found in longer period studies?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: conjur
Yeah...the JAMA is a rag. That's what you're saying.


No, I'm saying you can't have much of a valid study with only 30 participants over 1 month. If you look at most studies done for medicine or side effects of a certain treatment you will see the sample group is always in the hundreds and NORMALLY in the thousands and it is done for an appreciable amount of time.

I'm sure we'll get to that point.

But, looking at that study and seeing dramatic effects after a short period of time, can you imagine what other ill effects will be found in longer period studies?

That's a fallacy.
 

MAME

Banned
Sep 19, 2003
9,281
1
0
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: MAME
Mill, think about it. Those thousands of chemicals in the lungs...do you honestly think it wouldn't be detrimental to an inhaler's health?

Aww... you're on MY side. No, it doesn't quite work like that. Primary inhaler versus secondary smoke. Two different things.

Oh my bad...I thought second hand smoke contained thousands of chemicals...
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: conjur
Yeah...the JAMA is a rag. That's what you're saying.


No, I'm saying you can't have much of a valid study with only 30 participants over 1 month. If you look at most studies done for medicine or side effects of a certain treatment you will see the sample group is always in the hundreds and NORMALLY in the thousands and it is done for an appreciable amount of time.

I'm sure we'll get to that point.

But, looking at that study and seeing dramatic effects after a short period of time, can you imagine what other ill effects will be found in longer period studies?

That's a fallacy.

HA! So's evolution, following your logic.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: MAME
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: MAME
Mill, think about it. Those thousands of chemicals in the lungs...do you honestly think it wouldn't be detrimental to an inhaler's health?

Aww... you're on MY side. No, it doesn't quite work like that. Primary inhaler versus secondary smoke. Two different things.

Oh my bad...I thought second hand smoke contained thousands of chemicals...

Chemicals inhaled by a typical restaurant employee:
http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/8%20hour%20shift%20fact%20sheet.PDF

Carcinogens:
http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/Carcinogens.PDF

Tobacco-specific Nitrosamines:
http://www.smoke-free.ca/SL/TSNAfactsheet.PDF

Carbonyls:
http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/Carbonyls.PDF

Phenolics:
http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/Phenolics.PDF
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: conjur
Yeah...the JAMA is a rag. That's what you're saying.


No, I'm saying you can't have much of a valid study with only 30 participants over 1 month. If you look at most studies done for medicine or side effects of a certain treatment you will see the sample group is always in the hundreds and NORMALLY in the thousands and it is done for an appreciable amount of time.

I'm sure we'll get to that point.

But, looking at that study and seeing dramatic effects after a short period of time, can you imagine what other ill effects will be found in longer period studies?

That's a fallacy.

HA! So's evolution, following your logic.

Again a fallacy. Actually listen to my argument instead of trying to discredit it with hysterics. If the study is invalid to begin with, then the long terms effects would be invalid as well. Fruit of the poisoned tree. You can't get valid data from something that is invalid to begin with. A study of 30 people over 30 days relating to a significantly complex issue with many contributing factors is NOT valid.
 

MustangSVT

Lifer
Oct 7, 2000
11,554
12
81
Originally posted by: caitlion
she asked my why i had cigarettes and i didnt really answer and she kept asking if i smoked. then shes like "do you want me to take them from you?" (wtf?!) and i was all "uhhh no why would i want you to take them?" and shes said "because you really really dont want them"...

but she smokes. how can you tell your kids to do something that you do ALL the time? isnt that just a little hypocritical?

im some ways yes.

but she has first hand experience on it and knows what it does.

And you dont want your kids to be better than you. .
 

MAME

Banned
Sep 19, 2003
9,281
1
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: MAME
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: MAME
Mill, think about it. Those thousands of chemicals in the lungs...do you honestly think it wouldn't be detrimental to an inhaler's health?

Aww... you're on MY side. No, it doesn't quite work like that. Primary inhaler versus secondary smoke. Two different things.

Oh my bad...I thought second hand smoke contained thousands of chemicals...

Chemicals inhaled by a typical restaurant employee:
http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/8%20hour%20shift%20fact%20sheet.PDF

Carcinogens:
http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/Carcinogens.PDF

Tobacco-specific Nitrosamines:
http://www.smoke-free.ca/SL/TSNAfactsheet.PDF

Carbonyls:
http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/Carbonyls.PDF

Phenolics:
http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/Phenolics.PDF

*pssssssst conjur* I was being facetious. I already knew it contained thousands of chemicals /psssssst
 

fumbduck

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2001
4,349
0
76
How come M4H hasn't discredited or challenged what Millenium is saying?

He jumped straight to conclusions after my post, and Mill is providing evidence of that. I am not saying he is backing me, by all means, he probably hates me, but what I was saying about secondhand smoke not being 100% proven he has provided evidence toward agreement.
 

iliopsoas

Golden Member
Jul 14, 2001
1,844
2
0
Originally posted by: caitlion
she has quit before and has always gone back, if she cared that much she would have quit.

anyway, im not a big smoker. i smoke occasionally. and no, not to look cool. its relaxing. i just like it. this wasnt meant to be a thread where all the nonsmokers can come and yell at me alright?


Speaking from my experience as a doctor:

Smoking is more addictive than most, if not all, of the illicit drugs out there. It's very difficult to quit. Most people relapse and require several attempts before they succeed.

You may not be a big smoker but you still smoke. Whether you like to admit it or not, you're still addicted to smoking. I bet you'll have a hard time quitting.

If there is ever a single thing that I want my patients to do: STOP SMOKING!! and if you haven't started, DON'T EVER SMOKE!!
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
6
81
If a cig relaxes you, then you are addicted. Ciggarets have nothing in them that can relax you... you get the relaxation because you are going through withdrawl and so smoking takes care of that. Hence the relaxation
 

melly

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2002
3,612
0
0
She has every right to tell you what to do; she is your mother and you are extremely underage. Whether or not you heed her advice is a different story. But don't act as though she is some evil monster; you make it seem as though she is some kind of freak.

Having said that, I do enjoy the occasional cigarrette and then won't touch them for months, even years. One of my sisters, however, is a regular smoker, has been for years and years. Nobody else in the family --extended included--smokes. My mom says stuff like, "I'll kill her myself" or "Doesn't she know what she's doing to herself?" etc etc. yet the funny thing is she has never said anything to her face because she knows the choice lies within my sister--plus she's not 17, she's a grown adult. You still seem younger than your 17 years.
 

UCSDHappyAsian

Senior member
Oct 22, 2003
378
0
0
well.... under 18 cant smoke. its a law.
its like going to a lady's restoom.
your mom goes there all the times, why cant u?
 
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