My Opinion on BTX

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: daniel1113
You guys are pathetic (no offense).

No offense? How about you just go ahead and drink some more Intel Kool-Aid(tm) and keep your insults to yourself?

 

[anthrax]

BTX IMO is porked...


There is no way a Athlon 64 can conform BTX standard on where the CPU is placed.

Why ? There is no way you can route even length traces from the Intergrated memory controller to the DIMM sockets.


Ah , but may be this is an advantage to Intel.

You could say, BTX is an attempt by Intel to change the standards and make life difficult for mobo who want make BTX Athlon64 mobo...
Its a classic case of a dominant company trying change the standards inorder to hinder the competition.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: daniel1113
You guys are pathetic (no offense).

No offense? How about you just go ahead and drink some more Intel Kool-Aid(tm) and keep your insults to yourself?

If ot wasn't SO OBVIOUS intel wasn't intent on just SCREWING us - changing the form factor SIMPLY 4 CHANGE (i.e. to generate more HW sales) - with a real "plan" it would be different.



:roll:

BTX deserves to fail.

 

[justly]

Well, How many fans are we running on our setup?...

Two if you count the CPU and power supply fans.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: daniel1113
You guys are pathetic (no offense).

No offense? How about you just go ahead and drink some more Intel Kool-Aid(tm) and keep your insults to yourself?

If ot wasn't SO OBVIOUS intel wasn't intent on just SCREWING us - changing the form factor SIMPLY 4 CHANGE (i.e. to generate more HW sales) - with a real "plan" it would be different.



:roll:

BTX deserves to fail.

:laugh::thumbsup:

 

[wickedone]

May be we need two Standards one from Intel and one from AMD you cant put a AMD CPU on a Intel Board. Might be the the same way we go for a case in the future BTX for Intel and create CTX for AMD.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: wickedone
May be we need two Standards one from Intel and one from AMD you cant put a AMD CPU on a Intel Board. Might be the the same way we go for a case in the future BTX for Intel and create CTX for AMD.

Then Intel can go pound sand. I'm considering a CPU/mb upgrade at the moment, and I haven't made up my mind on AMD of Intel. But I sure as hell ain't gonna buy a new case too.

 

[Redviffer]

I don't care at this point, I'll build using ATX or BTX (when it's out). It true that Intel does like to change things for (seemingly stupid) reasons, but BTX does look like it will offer better positioning of components. That being said, I usually don't upgrade my systems, but instead prefer to build a new one everytime so I won't have to worry about buying a new power-supply, case, and mobo as that is what i do already. The article did mention that AMD64 mobo's would be a little more difficult due to the requirement of keeping the trace-lengths the same, but I'm sure they will figure that problem out easily.

 

[anthrax]

Originally posted by: wickedone
May be we need two Standards one from Intel and one from AMD you cant put a AMD CPU on a Intel Board. Might be the the same way we go for a case in the future BTX for Intel and create CTX for AMD.

hmmm.....there will be 4 possible combinations then..

A Intel BTX board with a Intel certified BTX case
A AMD BTX board with a AMD certified BTX case

what about the possible wrong combinations..

A Intel BTX board with AMD certified BTX case
A AMD BTX board witha Intel certified BTX case...

Great ! this is getting confusing already................soo much for BTX being a standard...

 

[anthrax]

Originally posted by: anthrax

Originally posted by: wickedone
May be we need two Standards one from Intel and one from AMD you cant put a AMD CPU on a Intel Board. Might be the the same way we go for a case in the future BTX for Intel and create CTX for AMD.

hmmm.....there will be 4 possible combinations then..

A Intel BTX board with a Intel certified BTX case
A AMD BTX board with a AMD certified BTX case

what about the possible wrong combinations..

A Intel BTX board with AMD certified BTX case
A AMD BTX board witha Intel certified BTX case...

Great ! this is getting confusing already................soo much for BTX being a standard...

I don't care at this point, I'll build using ATX or BTX (when it's out). It true that Intel does like to change things for (seemingly stupid) reasons, but BTX does look like it will offer better positioning of components. That being said, I usually don't upgrade my systems, but instead prefer to build a new one everytime so I won't have to worry about buying a new power-supply, case, and mobo as that is what i do already. The article did mention that AMD64 mobo's would be a little more difficult due to the requirement of keeping the trace-lengths the same, but I'm sure they will figure that problem out easily.

Yes, the can figure it out...build 6 or 8 layer Motherboards........ So that will be 6 or 8 layer Mobo with 105 million transistor build on a .13 micron 200mm process............. Thats going to make AMD solutions cost quite abit more than Intel ones...

Intel is probably doing this coz they got a huge problem with their CPUs.....
In the past 18 months, processor speed have ONLY went up 11% !

 

[wickedone]

We had AMD certified Power supplies, some memory had problems working in certain MB's, CPU fan for AMD wont always work on Intel and so on Basicly you had to always look at what would work best with what ever platform you were going with AMD or Intel. Better cooling is always good, how quiet it is will be a personel prefrence.
Point I am making is if this Case type becomes mainline and AMD cant change the board layout to solve the memory controler problem then a new case for AMD may be needed to keep up with updated technology.
New Ideas and open minds to look at new ideas is what makes good improvments.

 

[Maverick]

Not sure what my take is on it yet...but I will say this for sure...unless AMD jumps on board BTX will fail. And if Intel really wants BTX to succeed they need to cater to AMD a little bit.

 

[piasabird]

The biggest thing I see with a computer system is the size of the components that go into the case.

Optical drives are just too big and too bulky. They could all be the thinner type they use in Laptop/notebook computers. They could be a lot narrower if we dumped the CDROM as a media type and went to a smaller size DVD drive. You can fit a lot of data on a smaller DVD compared to a floppy.

Hard drives are also too large. They could be 2.5 inches wide. A lot of hard drives use only one platter but are still quite thick for a hard drive. The same drives that had 2 or 3 platters took up the same amount of space 3 years ago.

Floopy Drive is a dinasaur. It could easily be replaced with a flash drive. The cables take up too much space on a motherboard and get in the way. Many people do not even use a floppy drive except to load drivers and flash the bios. We could easily go to a Disk On Chip that was flashable or have one USB port on all computers that was for a bootable drive.

Too Many bulky Power Cables. Power supplies could be redesigned so they dont have extra power cables no one needs. Most of the time the power cables in the case get in the way of everything. Why cant they redesign a system to distribute the power to all the drives and fans. I imagine a power strip running next to the dries so each one can have a short plug that plugs into the power strip. Or just make power cables for the drives that pug into each other, that are molded so they stay together and dont have 4 wires for each terminal that can hang up on the computer parts.

Computer cases are really just klunky boxes with no forethougt put into their design. You would not need more room in a case if we had better design.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: piasabird

Computer cases are really just klunky boxes with no forethougt put into their design. You would not need more room in a case if we had better design.

The technology isn't perfect, no. But engineers have been designing computer cases for some time now. If you're willing to spend the money and do the research you can get a well-designed case. Laptop-sized components: Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't equivalent laptop storage devices come at a premium for less bang for the buck? Not everything HAS to be as small as possible. I learned this from a beautiful, though extremely tiny cell phone. It was a wonder, but I had problems pressing the buttons. This is just my opinion, but I love my full tower with all of its full-sized components with its room to grow and adapt. :thumbsup:

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Maverick
Not sure what my take is on it yet...but I will say this for sure...unless AMD jumps on board BTX will fail. And if Intel really wants BTX to succeed they need to cater to AMD a little bit.

Bah. No need to cater to AMD. They do, however, need to cater to board and case manufacturers, many of which despise BTX anf Socket-T.
When Chenbro is angry with you, you're not in the best position.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: piasabird
The biggest thing I see with a computer system is the size of the components that go into the case.

Optical drives are just too big and too bulky. They could all be the thinner type they use in Laptop/notebook computers. They could be a lot narrower if we dumped the CDROM as a media type and went to a smaller size DVD drive. You can fit a lot of data on a smaller DVD compared to a floppy.

Great, and when you need 4.38GB? Desktop drives need not be as flimsy as laptop ones. However, it's your choice. Nothing keeps you from using an expensive laptop drive.

Hard drives are also too large. They could be 2.5 inches wide. A lot of hard drives use only one platter but are still quite thick for a hard drive. The same drives that had 2 or 3 platters took up the same amount of space 3 years ago.

They are about that big. You can hook a laptop drive to your desktop.

Floopy Drive is a dinasaur. It could easily be replaced with a flash drive. The cables take up too much space on a motherboard and get in the way. Many people do not even use a floppy drive except to load drivers and flash the bios. We could easily go to a Disk On Chip that was flashable or have one USB port on all computers that was for a bootable drive.

Floppies are there for BIOS flashes. No need to have them permanently installed.

Too Many bulky Power Cables. Power supplies could be redesigned so they dont have extra power cables no one needs. Most of the time the power cables in the case get in the way of everything. Why cant they redesign a system to distribute the power to all the drives and fans. I imagine a power strip running next to the dries so each one can have a short plug that plugs into the power strip. Or just make power cables for the drives that pug into each other, that are molded so they stay together and dont have 4 wires for each terminal that can hang up on the computer parts.

You can do this yourself, actually. Also, there are a couple companies working on PSUs where all the cables can be removed at the PSU.

Computer cases are really just klunky boxes with no forethougt put into their design. You would not need more room in a case if we had better design.

You really, really, really never looked at old cases, did you? Can you compare the Chenming Dragon, Evercase E4252 with a AT case with three or more support bars in the way, ribbon cables everywhere, drive cages butted up against the motherboard, and with those damned U-shaped case covers? No. A lot of thought has gone into the decent cases out there.

 

[azndelite6983]

In reponse to piasabird:

BTX will solve virtually none of the problems you have just outlined, therefore putting the ultimate cooling performance of any setup, ATX or BTX, into the hands of its builder. I also don't see many of these problems really being solved anytime soon, except for SATA (MUCH thinner cabling) and the elimination of most parallel and legacy devices.

And I have to agree with HardWarrior...I have a large midtower and find that I need every bit of space I have, making me wish I had bought a larger case.

I also use every single power connector on my psu, so my next system will probably be a dually.

 

[Davegod]

BTX appears to be a design by Intel for Intel, and screw everybody else. Fresh clean air drawn straight onto the CPU? Great for the cpu, what about everything else? Video cards usually sit either first inline for the fresh air or second after hard drives, with BTX its the cpu, northbridge then videocard. Yay: quieter cpu HSF. Not-so-yay: the vid card (something far less suited to a big 'sink and fan) gets even louder. Dont see how there's any improvement for HDD or CDRom drives, if anything it looks worse.

80mm fans. WTF? where's the 120mm's? Even a lot of ATX cases are going with 120mm. Granted there's 1 92mm fan in spec for PSU, but why not everywhere either 92 or 120mm?

 

[Wahsapa]

i think if amd actually thought about it, there wouldnt be any problems with the a64 ram traces. i mean, if they could engineer cpus they can make a reference design for an a64 on a btx board, they just dont want to cuz btx is an intel thing

 

[Insane3D]

Originally posted by: daniel1113
You guys are pathetic (no offense).

Hey daniel...fvck off and die (no offense).

:roll:

 

[imported_Emon]

You know, just because there's a new standard doesn't mean what you have gets any worse. Yelling "omg intel prescott screwing everyone else!" really doesn't help. Video card not getting cooled? How's it good in ATX without modification? With BTX, at least you can have blowholes at the top or have the power supply take the hot air out. Hard drives, optical drives? Gimme a break. Opticals barely get hot. Yeah, they are warm, but they don't need cooling. Hard drives only need cooling if they're over 7,200 RPM and/or if you have a lot of them really close together. Same with RAM. Those are all gimmicks for cooling. I've been running 24, 32, 52x etc CD drives for years without any additional cooling, in many machines. And you know what? None of them have died. I've had arrays of IDE disks touching each other, those never died either. So unless you manage to overclock your CDs or HDDs, that department is fine.

 

[nitromullet]

I don't disagree that a new form factor could offer a number of improvements over ATX, but I do think that standards like this should go through more of a review process that involves more than just one of the players. I think that there should be a panel or group of companies that have their input on this type of thing. It would make sense to have manufacturers of all of the key components involved. If we wind up in a situation where the case builders have to spend more money on building cases and/or AMD has to move the CPU socket for it to accomidate their on chip memory controller, then we wind up with more expensive parts that still aren't really a standard.

A number of cool ideas for improving cases - from smaller drives to better wiring options have been brough up by just members of this forum. I can't even imagine what sorts of cool ideas the industry could come up with if they collectively designed a new standard. That being said, I do look forward to a new standard, and I beleive that a good standard needs to be adhered to more. For instance, if the CPU socket was in the same place for every motherboard of a given standard, can you imagne how much better cooling of the entire system would be? If case builders knew the placement of all the parts on a mobo, they could build cooling solutions with that in mind instead of having to build cases that will accomodate anything that is considered 'ATX'. Once we can actually agree on a set standard, we will finally, truely, begin to get away from the beige box.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Emon
You know, just because there's a new standard doesn't mean what you have gets any worse. Yelling "omg intel prescott screwing everyone else!" really doesn't help.

Video card not getting cooled? How's it good in ATX without modification? With BTX, at least you can have blowholes at the top or have the power supply take the hot air out. Hard drives, optical drives? Gimme a break. Opticals barely get hot. Yeah, they are warm, but they don't need cooling. Hard drives only need cooling if they're over 7,200 RPM and/or if you have a lot of them really close together. Same with RAM. Those are all gimmicks for cooling. I've been running 24, 32, 52x etc CD drives for years without any additional cooling, in many machines. And you know what? None of them have died. I've had arrays of IDE disks touching each other, those never died either. So unless you manage to overclock your CDs or HDDs, that department is fine.

Doesn't help? I'm not being helpful to YOU because I refuse to jump on the "It's new so I have to buy it!!!" bandwagon? Lots of "new standards" go NOWHERE because they aren't worth anything.

Now, how about this fat-mouth, go lecture your kids. If you don't have any, find someone who's dumb enough to think that you have something worthwhile to say.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Wahsapa
i think if amd actually thought about it, there wouldnt be any problems with the a64 ram traces. i mean, if they could engineer cpus they can make a reference design for an a64 on a btx board, they just dont want to cuz btx is an intel thing

So, AMD should redesign just to adhere to a standard created by Intel, that even the mb houses don't like? Why, just to be helpful?

:laugh:

 

[batmanuel]

Originally posted by: anthrax
BTX IMO is porked...


There is no way a Athlon 64 can conform BTX standard on where the CPU is placed.

Why ? There is no way you can route even length traces from the Intergrated memory controller to the DIMM sockets.


Ah , but may be this is an advantage to Intel.

You could say, BTX is an attempt by Intel to change the standards and make life difficult for mobo who want make BTX Athlon64 mobo...
Its a classic case of a dominant company trying change the standards inorder to hinder the competition.

The thing is, though, that Intel is known to be transitioning their Xeons to an integrated controller as well, since it is a lot better than a shared FSB in SMP systems. Since just about all new stuff introduced in the Xeons (like Hyperthreading) eventually make their way down to the normal desktop processors, then this strategy could bite them in the butt later if they want to change their memory controllers design.