My physical therapist says to not go below parallel on squats (to my surprise)

[enwar3]

I've been having troubles with my knees and went to see a physical therapist. We talked about correct form for squats, and how to keep the knee healthy. He gave me what seemed like a lot of sound advice. When I asked about how deep to go on squats, he said to go no lower than parallel, and to stay just above parallel to be safe. I told him all the books I'd read say that going low actually saves your knees, but he said that's not backed up by research. He said putting that kind of stress on the knee is ultimately risk that's not worth the reward. He said instead to supplement with exercises that target the hamstrings in particular (such as hamstring curls, modified deadlifts) to keep the knee safe.

What do y'all think of this? This is partly a public notice (since I know a lot of you subscribe to the go-below-parallel dogma) and partly a request for a second opinion. This guy IS licensed and everything..

EDIT: He said this mainly applied to heavier squats, 200lb+ (yes, I know that's not necessarily heavy for everybody)

 

[edcarman]

I was given similar advice by my physio and also my biokineticist, as well as a doctor at my local sport medicine clinic.

 

[msmy300z]

I'm a PT and generally the additional load on the joint surfaces, ligaments, tendons, and muscles increase the risk of damage without greatly benefiting the quads, gluteals, etc...

http://www.eorthopod.com/content/want-a-healthier-knee-just-squat
For a brief reference.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I've read up on this as well since I've heard a lot of really smart people say this. Research really only backs that ass-to-grass squats (where your butt almost touches the back of your calves) MAY increase your risk of injury if you're prone. Slightly below parallel has no differences with above parallel. There's no magic voodoo line where a squat goes from being therapeutic to being detrimental. If your patella tracks fine and you don't have pain in your knee after squatting, you can squat below parallel. Personally, I don't squat ass-to-grass unless I'm doing a max effort clean-and-jerk or snatch. My knees get aggravated if I squat as low as possible. If I squat below parallel though, I have no problems. You really just have to gauge it on your experiences.

<- PT student and a huge fan of squats. I read almost 20 articles on that crap to get a good idea of what the majority of research said. Most found no increased injury risk, but it tended to support that full ROM flexion under weightbearing may not be a good thing.

 

[darkxshade]

My squats got my ass about 10 inches from the floor. I've recently begun squatting low like that due to my increased flexibility. Don't know if you recall my old thread about my inability to squat but I've been working on my form since then and now my squats feel pretty solid... And now I'm told it may be a bad thing?

 

[brikis98]

My squats got my ass about 10 inches from the floor. I've recently begun squatting low like that due to my increased flexibility. Don't know if you recall my old thread about my inability to squat but I've been working on my form since then and now my squats feel pretty solid... And now I'm told it may be a bad thing?

Do some reading, see what the studies say, and come to your own conclusions. Here are some articles to get you started:

Squat analysis
Don't Let the Knees Pass The Toes & Other Squatting Myths
Squats: how safe is it to perform a squat exercise?

 

[darkdiablo]

I been working out for 2 years. First 8 month I was on SS 3x5, then shieko cycle, then the Texas method. Pretty much squat about 3 - 4 times a week. I go way below parallel every single rep. My knees has been healthier and more stable than ever. The important thing to remember is that, you must have correct form when you squat. The physical therapist is probably basing his answers off of incorrect squat form. If your form is perfect, the force vectors on your patella aka knee should be about balanced. If you do a half squat or a quarter squat, this would actually increase the chance of damage to your knee as well as your back. Look at some videos of correct squat form, make a video of yourself squating, and show it to us.

 

[Whisper]

I been working out for 2 years. First 8 month I was on SS 3x5, then shieko cycle, then the Texas method. Pretty much squat about 3 - 4 times a week. I go way below parallel every single rep. My knees has been healthier and more stable than ever. The important thing to remember is that, you must have correct form when you squat. The physical therapist is probably basing his answers off of incorrect squat form. If your form is perfect, the force vectors on your patella aka knee should be about balanced. If you do a half squat or a quarter squat, this would actually increase the chance of damage to your knee as well as your back. Look at some videos of correct squat form, make a video of yourself squating, and show it to us.

It doesn't sound like the PT is suggesting half- or quarter-squats, but rather that the OP stay at or just above parallel. I'd imagine that the majority of individuals can get parallel; whether or not you can/should go well below parallel is likely a matter of previous lifting experience, biomechanics, flexibility, training goals, and a whole host of other factors.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I been working out for 2 years. First 8 month I was on SS 3x5, then shieko cycle, then the Texas method. Pretty much squat about 3 - 4 times a week. I go way below parallel every single rep. My knees has been healthier and more stable than ever. The important thing to remember is that, you must have correct form when you squat. The physical therapist is probably basing his answers off of incorrect squat form. If your form is perfect, the force vectors on your patella aka knee should be about balanced. If you do a half squat or a quarter squat, this would actually increase the chance of damage to your knee as well as your back. Look at some videos of correct squat form, make a video of yourself squating, and show it to us.

I love when people say how quarter or half squatting putting a greater force on your knee. Please, cite some research or explain the process to me. That's not how your knee works. If your patella tracks fine, the greatest forces on it are internal torques when the femur is parallel to the tibia when the quadriceps have the greatest force producing ability. Wanna talk sheer forces then? Go for it. Explain to me how the sheer forces are greater. I hate when rumors are propagated, especially as a side of an argument. This is not true at all, which is why it's actually used as a physical therapy exercise - half and quarter squats put less sheer force on the knee.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

It doesn't sound like the PT is suggesting half- or quarter-squats, but rather that the OP stay at or just above parallel. I'd imagine that the majority of individuals can get parallel; whether or not you can/should go well below parallel is likely a matter of previous lifting experience, biomechanics, flexibility, training goals, and a whole host of other factors.

Eh, the PT really has no right to say parallel squats are dangerous. There's really no proper research to say that.

 

[Deeko]

As it turns out - a lot of physical therapists are dumb as rocks when it comes to exercise. I went to a physical therapist briefly for my back issues. I told her I probably hurt my back deadlifting - not only did she not know how a deadlift was performed, she didn't even think it relevant to ask until the 4th or 5th session!

Take it with a grain of salt. Physical therapists might know a lot about some things, but that does not make them all experts on everything involving the body.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

As it turns out - a lot of physical therapists are dumb as rocks when it comes to exercise. I went to a physical therapist briefly for my back issues. I told her I probably hurt my back deadlifting - not only did she not know how a deadlift was performed, she didn't even think it relevant to ask until the 4th or 5th session!

Take it with a grain of salt. Physical therapists might know a lot about some things, but that does not make them all experts on everything involving the body.

It's really depressing to read this. At my physical therapy school, everyone is very, very active and at least has an idea of almost every exercise you can think of. You really just have to find a good PT. If you do, then you're in very good hands and will be likely to recover quickly.

It's funny that you mention the deadlift. My biomechanics professor, a physical therapist for 25 years now, specifically mentions that the deadlift is one of the best exercises to hamstring, glute, lower, and upper back injuries/weakness. It's sad seeing the caliber of PTs out there when I know so many good ones.

Personally, I think physical therapists SHOULD be experts on everything exercise, musculoskeletal, and neural at the very least. A PT should know what the hell a deadlift is.

 

[darkdiablo]

I love when people say how quarter or half squatting putting a greater force on your knee. Please, cite some research or explain the process to me. That's not how your knee works. If your patella tracks fine, the greatest forces on it are internal torques when the femur is parallel to the tibia when the quadriceps have the greatest force producing ability. Wanna talk sheer forces then? Go for it. Explain to me how the sheer forces are greater. I hate when rumors are propagated, especially as a side of an argument. This is not true at all, which is why it's actually used as a physical therapy exercise - half and quarter squats put less sheer force on the knee.

K, so bottom line is, my experience with full squats are that I get much better gains than partial squats. Refer to starting strength 2nd edition as to why partial squats are horrible.

"In a partial squat, which fails to provide a full stretch for the hamstrings, most of the force against the tibia is upward and forward, from the quadriceps and their attachment to the front of the tibia below the knee. This produces an anterior shear, a forward-directed sliding force, on the knee, with the tibia being pulled forward from the patellar tendon and without a balancing pull from the opposing hamstrings. This shearing force - and the resulting unbalanced strain on the prepatellar area - may be the biggest problem with partial squats."

Either way, partial squats aka half/quarter squats are horrible exercises. I am not trying to spread any rumor about that.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Well, of course you get better gains with full squats. You utilize the stretch-shortening cycle and put a greater load on your muscles through their full ROM.

Also, SS may be able to justify it logically, but there is no research to back this phenomenon. If you are properly squatting, you should maintain a fair amount of tension on your hamstrings at all times. In addition to this claim, shouldn't squats as a whole be problematic? You have to go through a quarter squat to get to a full squat position, thereby putting you through this same sheer force. If you have good muscular control, you won't have any problems either way. You have other musculature like the popliteus and soleus that can pull the tibia posteriorly in a closed kinetic chain. The body doesn't just all of a sudden wreck itself because you don't finish the ROM.

Also, I agree that partial squats are poor exercises for the average Joe and that squats to parallel or slightly below parallel are great at training functional strengthen. However, I hate propagation of incorrect information. Physical therapists use these exercises for rehabilitation for a reason - because it helps teach proper muscle activation and proprioception. It's not a voodoo exercise that ruins your knees.

 

[darkdiablo]

In addition to this claim, shouldn't squats as a whole be problematic? You have to go through a quarter squat to get to a full squat position, thereby putting you through this same sheer force.

Except that you're stopping at the quarter/half position and going back up instead of keep on going to the parallel or below parallel position. When you stop at quarter or half, the sheer force is obviously greater than if you were going down at the same position.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Except that you're stopping at the quarter/half position and going back up instead of keep on going to the parallel or below parallel position. When you stop at quarter or half, the sheer force is obviously greater than if you were going down at the same position.

Not if the soleus (which can generate a massive amount of force pulling the tibia posteriorly) and popliteus pull back sufficiently. Sure, the forces may overall be greater, but the net sheer force isn't likely any danger.

Compared to an ass-to-grass squat, which has been shown in research to generate greater sheer forces AND correlated with increase knee injury, the case against a quarter/half squat is weak. Like I said though, there is absolutely no case against a parallel or slightly below parallel squat. If you're not an Oly lifter, you don't need to squat ass-to-grass anyhow. It provides no extra benefit, besides consistently maintaining your flexibility.