My solution to the gay marriage issue: stricter divorce laws

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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,985
3,319
126
Gay people have the same right, to marry one person of the opposite sex, as anyone else.

If gay people really want to get married, all they have to do is to become straight and marry someone of the opposite sex. There are several problems with this argument, the first of which is that it presumes that sexual orientation is a choice. This lie is promoted so endlessly by bigoted religious leaders that it has become accepted as fact by society as a whole, and it was advanced, beginning in the 1980's, for the purpose of discrediting the gay rights movement. But the reality is that a half century of social research on this subject, consisting of thousands of studies, beginning with the Kinsey and Minnesota Twin studies of the 1950's and continuing to the present, has shown conclusively - beyond any reasonable doubt - that among males, sexual orientation is only very slightly flexible, and among females, it is only modestly more so. That homosexuality is congenital, inborn, and has a strong genetic component. In other words, if you're gay, you're gay and there is little that you do about it, regardless of the endless propaganda to the contrary.

Another problem with this argument is that it presumes that heterosexuality, if it were a choice, is self-evidently a more desireable and/or morally superior choice to make. This is a qualitative argument with whom many gay people - and many thinking straight people as well, both religious and secular - would take issue.

A third problem is that this argument presumes that someone else has the right to veto your presumed choice sexual orientation on the basis that they are not comfortable with the choice you have made. It is difficult for me to see how any religionist or anti-gay bigot, however sincere and well-meaning, has the right to arrogate to himself that veto power. Or, frankly, why a homosexual should be forced to go out of his way to make bigots comfortable with their bigotry.

A fourth, legalistic problem with this argument is that it presumes that if the choice of sexual orientation can be made, the voluntary nature of that choice removes any and all right to the protection of the law for the choice which has been made. But I would point out that the First Amendment to the United States constitution protects, by constitutional fiat itself, a purely voluntary choice - that of religion. So if it is acceptable to argue that unpopular sexual minorities have no right to equal protection of the law because they can avoid disadvantage or persecution by voluntarily changing the choice they have presumably made, then it is equally true that the First Amendment should not include protection for choice in religion, because no rational person could argue that religious belief is itself not a choice. In other words, this is like arguing that you should not expect legal protection from being persecuted because you are a Mormon or a Catholic; the solution to such disadvantage or persecution is simple: just become a Southern Baptist or whatever. I have never, ever seen a religious opponent of homosexuality who is asserting that homosexuality is a choice, advance that last point with regards to religion - a fact which very glaringly demonstrates the clearly bigoted character of this argument.

http://www.bidstrup.com/marriage.htm
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,708
4,188
136
If gay people really want to get married, all they have to do is to become straight and marry someone of the opposite sex. There are several problems with this argument, the first of which is that it presumes that sexual orientation is a choice. This lie is promoted so endlessly by bigoted religious leaders that it has become accepted as fact by society as a whole, and it was advanced, beginning in the 1980's, for the purpose of discrediting the gay rights movement. But the reality is that a half century of social research on this subject, consisting of thousands of studies, beginning with the Kinsey and Minnesota Twin studies of the 1950's and continuing to the present, has shown conclusively - beyond any reasonable doubt - that among males, sexual orientation is only very slightly flexible, and among females, it is only modestly more so. That homosexuality is congenital, inborn, and has a strong genetic component. In other words, if you're gay, you're gay and there is little that you do about it, regardless of the endless propaganda to the contrary.

Another problem with this argument is that it presumes that heterosexuality, if it were a choice, is self-evidently a more desireable and/or morally superior choice to make. This is a qualitative argument with whom many gay people - and many thinking straight people as well, both religious and secular - would take issue.

A third problem is that this argument presumes that someone else has the right to veto your presumed choice sexual orientation on the basis that they are not comfortable with the choice you have made. It is difficult for me to see how any religionist or anti-gay bigot, however sincere and well-meaning, has the right to arrogate to himself that veto power. Or, frankly, why a homosexual should be forced to go out of his way to make bigots comfortable with their bigotry.

A fourth, legalistic problem with this argument is that it presumes that if the choice of sexual orientation can be made, the voluntary nature of that choice removes any and all right to the protection of the law for the choice which has been made. But I would point out that the First Amendment to the United States constitution protects, by constitutional fiat itself, a purely voluntary choice - that of religion. So if it is acceptable to argue that unpopular sexual minorities have no right to equal protection of the law because they can avoid disadvantage or persecution by voluntarily changing the choice they have presumably made, then it is equally true that the First Amendment should not include protection for choice in religion, because no rational person could argue that religious belief is itself not a choice. In other words, this is like arguing that you should not expect legal protection from being persecuted because you are a Mormon or a Catholic; the solution to such disadvantage or persecution is simple: just become a Southern Baptist or whatever. I have never, ever seen a religious opponent of homosexuality who is asserting that homosexuality is a choice, advance that last point with regards to religion - a fact which very glaringly demonstrates the clearly bigoted character of this argument.

http://www.bidstrup.com/marriage.htm

:thumbsup: all around for this post.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,030
29,917
146
If gay people really want to get married, all they have to do is to become straight and marry someone of the opposite sex. There are several problems with this argument, the first of which is that it presumes that sexual orientation is a choice. This lie is promoted so endlessly by bigoted religious leaders that it has become accepted as fact by society as a whole, and it was advanced, beginning in the 1980's, for the purpose of discrediting the gay rights movement. But the reality is that a half century of social research on this subject, consisting of thousands of studies, beginning with the Kinsey and Minnesota Twin studies of the 1950's and continuing to the present, has shown conclusively - beyond any reasonable doubt - that among males, sexual orientation is only very slightly flexible, and among females, it is only modestly more so. That homosexuality is congenital, inborn, and has a strong genetic component. In other words, if you're gay, you're gay and there is little that you do about it, regardless of the endless propaganda to the contrary.

Another problem with this argument is that it presumes that heterosexuality, if it were a choice, is self-evidently a more desireable and/or morally superior choice to make. This is a qualitative argument with whom many gay people - and many thinking straight people as well, both religious and secular - would take issue.

A third problem is that this argument presumes that someone else has the right to veto your presumed choice sexual orientation on the basis that they are not comfortable with the choice you have made. It is difficult for me to see how any religionist or anti-gay bigot, however sincere and well-meaning, has the right to arrogate to himself that veto power. Or, frankly, why a homosexual should be forced to go out of his way to make bigots comfortable with their bigotry.

A fourth, legalistic problem with this argument is that it presumes that if the choice of sexual orientation can be made, the voluntary nature of that choice removes any and all right to the protection of the law for the choice which has been made. But I would point out that the First Amendment to the United States constitution protects, by constitutional fiat itself, a purely voluntary choice - that of religion. So if it is acceptable to argue that unpopular sexual minorities have no right to equal protection of the law because they can avoid disadvantage or persecution by voluntarily changing the choice they have presumably made, then it is equally true that the First Amendment should not include protection for choice in religion, because no rational person could argue that religious belief is itself not a choice. In other words, this is like arguing that you should not expect legal protection from being persecuted because you are a Mormon or a Catholic; the solution to such disadvantage or persecution is simple: just become a Southern Baptist or whatever. I have never, ever seen a religious opponent of homosexuality who is asserting that homosexuality is a choice, advance that last point with regards to religion - a fact which very glaringly demonstrates the clearly bigoted character of this argument.

http://www.bidstrup.com/marriage.htm


:thumbsup:
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
If gay people really want to get married, all they have to do is to become straight and marry someone of the opposite sex. There are several problems with this argument, the first of which is that it presumes that sexual orientation is a choice. This lie is promoted so endlessly by bigoted religious leaders that it has become accepted as fact by society as a whole, and it was advanced, beginning in the 1980's, for the purpose of discrediting the gay rights movement. But the reality is that a half century of social research on this subject, consisting of thousands of studies, beginning with the Kinsey and Minnesota Twin studies of the 1950's and continuing to the present, has shown conclusively - beyond any reasonable doubt - that among males, sexual orientation is only very slightly flexible, and among females, it is only modestly more so. That homosexuality is congenital, inborn, and has a strong genetic component. In other words, if you're gay, you're gay and there is little that you do about it, regardless of the endless propaganda to the contrary.

This is nothing more the LGBT propaganda.

Another problem with this argument is that it presumes that heterosexuality, if it were a choice, is self-evidently a more desireable and/or morally superior choice to make. This is a qualitative argument with whom many gay people - and many thinking straight people as well, both religious and secular - would take issue.

The only argument that is made is that society has an interest in heterosexual relationships. Whereas it has as little interest in homosexual relationships as it does in platonic relationship. You do not see the government handing out certificates of BFFship.

A third problem is that this argument presumes that someone else has the right to veto your presumed choice sexual orientation on the basis that they are not comfortable with the choice you have made. It is difficult for me to see how any religionist or anti-gay bigot, however sincere and well-meaning, has the right to arrogate to himself that veto power. Or, frankly, why a homosexual should be forced to go out of his way to make bigots comfortable with their bigotry.

And you are presuming that society has equal interest in homosexual and heterosexual relationships.

A fourth, legalistic problem with this argument is that it presumes that if the choice of sexual orientation can be made, the voluntary nature of that choice removes any and all right to the protection of the law for the choice which has been made. But I would point out that the First Amendment to the United States constitution protects, by constitutional fiat itself, a purely voluntary choice - that of religion. So if it is acceptable to argue that unpopular sexual minorities have no right to equal protection of the law because they can avoid disadvantage or persecution by voluntarily changing the choice they have presumably made, then it is equally true that the First Amendment should not include protection for choice in religion, because no rational person could argue that religious belief is itself not a choice. In other words, this is like arguing that you should not expect legal protection from being persecuted because you are a Mormon or a Catholic; the solution to such disadvantage or persecution is simple: just become a Southern Baptist or whatever. I have never, ever seen a religious opponent of homosexuality who is asserting that homosexuality is a choice, advance that last point with regards to religion - a fact which very glaringly demonstrates the clearly bigoted character of this argument.

http://www.bidstrup.com/marriage.htm

Homosexual and heterosexual relationships only must be treated the same if they are the same.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,099
1,547
126
How are they not the same?

I've finally figured out nehalem's problem with homosexuals. In a homosexual relationship there is not one man and one woman. Therefore there is no woman to do the man's bidding and to be forced to have sex when the man wants. He doesn't like them because they disrupt the way he feels relationships should be with a man who has power over a woman. He dislikes the idea of a relationship where true gender equality exists.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
How are they not the same?

Heterosexual couples can pro-create. Homosexual couples cannot.

For this reason society has an interest in heterosexual couples. While it has no more interest in homosexual couples than it does platonic friendships.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,921
30,022
136
Heterosexual couples can pro-create. Homosexual couples cannot.

For this reason society has an interest in heterosexual couples. While it has no more interest in homosexual couples than it does platonic friendships.
Wow, I didn't see that response coming from a mile away. Just wanted you to post it so you can tell me why you think society has no interest in heterosexual couples that cannot procreate.
 

dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,345
2,705
136
Heterosexual couples can pro-create. Homosexual couples cannot.

For this reason society has an interest in heterosexual couples. While it has no more interest in homosexual couples than it does platonic friendships.

My GF had a hysterectomy and with your logic we could not get married.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Wow, I didn't see that response coming from a mile away. Just wanted you to post it so you can tell me why you think society has no interest in heterosexual couples that cannot procreate.

For the same reason they have no interest in platonic couples. Is the government involved with who your BFF is? Should they be?

My GF had a hysterectomy and with your logic we could not get married.

Society has no reason to care about your relationship. Please explain why they should?
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,921
30,022
136
For the same reason they have no interest in platonic couples. Is the government involved with who your BFF is? Should they be?



Society has no reason to care about your relationship. Please explain why they should?
The point that you are side-stepping is that if dawp and his GF can legally get married you have not shown why a homosexual couple cannot.
 

Phanuel

Platinum Member
Apr 25, 2008
2,304
2
0
Do we really need everyone making 2+ babies? I'm sure there are already plenty of people on this planet as of now and a few people having relationships that don't bear children will not suddenly spell the end of humanity as we know it.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
The point that you are side-stepping is that if dawp and his GF can legally get married you have not shown why a homosexual couple cannot.

If only there was a court case that dealt with this very issue? :hmm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_v._Nelson
With respect to the claim of an equal-protection violation, the Court found that childless marriages presented no more than a theoretical imperfection in the state's rationale for limiting marriage to different-sex couples. It found the plaintiffs' reliance on the U.S. Supreme Court's recent decision in Loving v. Virginia, finding an anti-miscegenation law, failed to provide a parallel: "in commonsense and in a constitutional sense, there is a clear distinction between a marital restriction based merely upon race and one based upon the fundamental difference in sex."

Considering there is no generally applicable accurate test to determine fertility it would be impractical to limit marriage merely to fertile heterosexual couples.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
Society has no reason to care about your relationship.....

Unless, you're gay.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
How are they not the same?

That's kind of a silly question. If you believe gay marriage is the same as heterosexual marriage, then you are in effect saying that men and women are the same as well.....which is absurd.

At any rate, my stance on gay marriage/relationships remains the same. It weirds me out and I will never believe it to be the equal of heterosexual marriage/relationships.....BUT, I have found no logical reason to be against gay marriage, other than prejudice.

Gays comprise such a small percentage of the population, that it won't make a single difference whether they're married or not......so let them.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Society has no reason to care about your relationship.....

Unless, you're gay.

The problem with your statement is you are implying that marriage is a private matter. Which is so incredibly inaccurate as to be laughable

Demanding that society recognize your relationship is not a private matter. And why would society recognize relationships it doesn't care about?
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,099
1,547
126
That's kind of a silly question. If you believe gay marriage is the same as heterosexual marriage, then you are in effect saying that men and women are the same as well.....which is absurd.

At any rate, my stance on gay marriage/relationships remains the same. It weirds me out and I will never believe it to be the equal of heterosexual marriage/relationships.....BUT, I have found no logical reason to be against gay marriage, other than prejudice.

Gays comprise such a small percentage of the population, that it won't make a single difference whether they're married or not......so let them.

While I don't agree with some of your views, I applaud your willingness to not let personal beliefs cloud your logic. So kudos to you.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,921
30,022
136
If only there was a court case that dealt with this very issue? :hmm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_v._Nelson


Considering there is no generally applicable accurate test to determine fertility it would be impractical to limit marriage merely to fertile heterosexual couples.
Maybe guys who get vasectomies should not be allowed to marry? Maybe married men who get vasectomies should automatically be divorced status in the eyes of the government?
 

dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,345
2,705
136
For the same reason they have no interest in platonic couples. Is the government involved with who your BFF is? Should they be?



Society has no reason to care about your relationship. Please explain why they should?

why should society care about yours? is yous special, you highness.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Maybe guys who get vasectomies should not be allowed to marry?

By getting a vasectomy he is saying he has no intention to have children and so there is no compelling interest for the government to have an interest in his relationship.

Maybe married men who get vasectomies should automatically be divorced status in the eyes of the government?

This fails because he may (and in fact likely did) have several children with his wife already.

why should society care about yours? is yous special, you highness.

I never said mine was special. Society has an obvious compelling interest in children and in insuring they are taken care of.

EDIT: Since when did I become a Prince?
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,921
30,022
136
By getting a vasectomy he is saying he has no intention to have children and so there is no compelling interest for the government to have an interest in his relationship.

...
Yet he is allowed to get married, and any attempt to make it illegal would be met with ridicule.
 
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