My view on the economy...

[TheGameIs21]

Ok... I am getting sick of the Liberals talking about a $9 Trillion Surplus when it is obvious that the surplus was based on the current wages [EDIT]and the business taxes[/edit] of the inflated .com industry. Many A+ techs were gettign $30+ an hour. When an entry level position in a huge new industry is making that much money because of the unbelievable amount of money that was invested in all sectors of that market you are going to have HUGE tax revenue.

After the bust and the A+ was making what an entry level tech should be making (about $15 on the high end) then you are going to see personal income tax revenue drop. Then you have business tax revenue that went through the basement after the great majority of all the .com industry folded with the invested money not staying in circulation.

That is at least half of the reason for our current deficit. This wasn't Clinton's fault either. The problem was caused by a failed (criminal in my opinion) new basis of generating income for a company.

Not that I expect any minds to be changed... I just had to say it...

Go ahead and go off topic... That's what most of you are good at.

 

[CycloWizard]

Like Bush said tonight, the deficit is due to decreased tax revenues moreso than increased spending, though both are contributors. I think you're spot on.

I also thought it was hillarious that the mod kept trying to get them both to say how they would pay for all their new proposals and neither would.

 

[ericlp]

I think computer techs should be getting more then that myself.

That's like saying a doctor should be making 20.00 an hour.... Yes, I use to be a tech. 15 bucks is high end sadly.

Today your lucky to even find a computer job. If your a programmer it is almost impossible since they have well, 90% of them have been outsourced. Yes, India has some smart people...

But, it sucks when levi's one of the last american companys has to close up shop and move to mexico just to stay in business. something is wrong with that picture.

BTW, has anyone bought a bag of Frito-Lay Brand Products. FUNYUNS Onion Flavored Rings???
YEP!!! Made in Mexico!!!!

Now there is nothing wrong with making stuff in mexico but moving American jobs to mexico is depressing.

See ya in the unemployment line! Bush for 4 more years!

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Like Bush said tonight, the deficit is due to decreased tax revenues moreso than increased spending, though both are contributors. I think you're spot on.

I also thought it was hillarious that the mod kept trying to get them both to say how they would pay for all their new proposals and neither would.

What politician wants to admit that there is a $72 trillion gap between their promised benefits to tomorrow's retirees and the amount of revenue that will actually be brought in? In recognizing such an enormous gap the politician would either have to admit that benefits have to be cut, or taxes SIGNIFICANTLY increased. No politician wants to do this, because it could mean an end to their career.

 

[sandorski]

Well, everyone was using the projected Surplus to Justify their programs.

 

[laurenlex]

Let's see. If it's made in America, it costs too much because we need to pay Americans a "living wage" or they can't afford to buy stuff. So people buy stuff made overseas because it's more affordable, but American's lose jobs"

Holy fvcking catch-22 batman!

I hope somebody a whole lot smarter than me can find a solution.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Like Bush said tonight, the deficit is due to decreased tax revenues moreso than increased spending, though both are contributors. I think you're spot on.

I also thought it was hillarious that the mod kept trying to get them both to say how they would pay for all their new proposals and neither would.

His response was lame. Sure, there was a decline in Revenues, but approx half the current Deficit is from lost revenues from the Tax Cuts, the other approx half from the Wars and other increased spending.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: ericlp
I think computer techs should be getting more then that myself.

That's like saying a doctor should be making 20.00 an hour.... Yes, I use to be a tech. 15 bucks is high end sadly.

Today your lucky to even find a computer job. If your a programmer it is almost impossible since they have well, 90% of them have been outsourced. Yes, India has some smart people...

Funny last week I lost a programming job..and next monday i start a new one. It looks like most of coworkers will be employed real soon as well. Most them already are.

 

[flawlssdistortn]

Is there a panel of respected, impartial, economists that can scrutinize both candidates' plans and tell us whether it's gonna fly or not? Im sick of hearing Bush and Kerry spit out all these figures while saying that the other can't pay for it.

 

[TheGameIs21]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Like Bush said tonight, the deficit is due to decreased tax revenues moreso than increased spending, though both are contributors. I think you're spot on.

I also thought it was hillarious that the mod kept trying to get them both to say how they would pay for all their new proposals and neither would.

His response was lame. Sure, there was a decline in Revenues, but approx half the current Deficit is from lost revenues from the Tax Cuts, the other approx half from the Wars and other increased spending.

Half = cutting the taxes of 1% of the taxpayers.
Approx half = wars and increased spending...

You are leaving the huge gap of the loss of tax revenue from the 90's bust... Sorry, you are "approx half" wrong.

 

[TheGameIs21]

Originally posted by: laurenlex
Let's see. If it's made in America, it costs too much because we need to pay Americans a "living wage" or they can't afford to buy stuff. So people buy stuff made overseas because it's more affordable, but American's lose jobs"

Holy fvcking catch-22 batman!

I hope somebody a whole lot smarter than me can find a solution.

In my perfect world... It would start with the generations that fall between age 16 and 40 getting out of the "make me happy now" mode. There is a reason that you should have to work you butt off to buy that new home theater...

People think they need to make enough $$ to have all the nicest things when they want them. As a general rule, there is no feeling of having to work for something anymore. Once there are fewer people out willing to drop large sums of debt on $600 Video Cards for gaming, $5K on plasma screens etc... prices will fall on the every day items that have gone up so much. The reason prices are going up on consumables and durables is that people will pay it. Problem is... It's mostly being paid for on credit.

(I am tired... I hope this made sense)

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
What politician wants to admit that there is a $72 trillion gap between their promised benefits to tomorrow's retirees and the amount of revenue that will actually be brought in? In recognizing such an enormous gap the politician would either have to admit that benefits have to be cut, or taxes SIGNIFICANTLY increased. No politician wants to do this, because it could mean an end to their career.

Duh. That's why neither of them would answer, which is why I thought it was funny.

Originally posted by: ericlp
Today your lucky to even find a computer job. If your a programmer it is almost impossible since they have well, 90% of them have been outsourced. Yes, India has some smart people...

But, it sucks when levi's one of the last american companys has to close up shop and move to mexico just to stay in business. something is wrong with that picture.

There is competition for outsourced jobs within India even. My classmate from Bombay was telling me the people of Bombay that have had the outsourced jobs for a couple years became complacent and wanted more money. People from undeveloped villages came to the cities to do the jobs. All of a sudden, the people of Bombay wanted their jobs back. Fact is, you're not in a very good position to bargain when there are 31895739857 people waiting to do your job for as much or less than you're being paid now.

Originally posted by: sandorski
His response was lame. Sure, there was a decline in Revenues, but approx half the current Deficit is from lost revenues from the Tax Cuts, the other approx half from the Wars and other increased spending.

Kerry's response was equally lame. No politician would address this question. At least Bush wasn't droning on and on about balancing a budget when proposing ridiculous spending.

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: ericlp
I think computer techs should be getting more then that myself.

That's like saying a doctor should be making 20.00 an hour.... Yes, I use to be a tech. 15 bucks is high end sadly.

Today your lucky to even find a computer job. If your a programmer it is almost impossible since they have well, 90% of them have been outsourced. Yes, India has some smart people...

Funny last week I lost a programming job..and next monday i start a new one. It looks like most of coworkers will be employed real soon as well. Most them already are.

I guess you are one of the lucky ones. Lucky you weren't the ops manager for levi or fretolay...

But be honest with yourself. Check out the labels on where things are made these days. It's hard to find ANYTHING made in the USA. I almost dare you to find shoes, shirts or pants that are still made in the USA. I don't own any. I think I still have a few levi's that are still made in the good ol' USA. But, I buy cloths on sale and that are cheap.... I won't buy cloths that cost over 50 bucks... Yeah I'm a cheap bastard... I'll admit it. Except when it comes to shoes. I buy some of the best ones fron new balance. I almost paid 100 bucks a pair! A lot for me and yes they are made in China.

Even Columbia shirts are made in Thailand. 45 dollar shirts. Oh well.

I bought a Ford pickup... The Engine was actually made in USA but the automatic trans was made in france of all places. Most of it was assembled in Mexico.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: TheGameIs21

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Like Bush said tonight, the deficit is due to decreased tax revenues moreso than increased spending, though both are contributors. I think you're spot on.

I also thought it was hillarious that the mod kept trying to get them both to say how they would pay for all their new proposals and neither would.

His response was lame. Sure, there was a decline in Revenues, but approx half the current Deficit is from lost revenues from the Tax Cuts, the other approx half from the Wars and other increased spending.

Half = cutting the taxes of 1% of the taxpayers.
Approx half = wars and increased spending...

You are leaving the huge gap of the loss of tax revenue from the 90's bust... Sorry, you are "approx half" wrong.

Which is?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: ericlp

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: ericlp
I think computer techs should be getting more then that myself.

That's like saying a doctor should be making 20.00 an hour.... Yes, I use to be a tech. 15 bucks is high end sadly.

Today your lucky to even find a computer job. If your a programmer it is almost impossible since they have well, 90% of them have been outsourced. Yes, India has some smart people...

Funny last week I lost a programming job..and next monday i start a new one. It looks like most of coworkers will be employed real soon as well. Most them already are.

I guess you are one of the lucky ones. Lucky you weren't the ops manager for levi or fretolay...

But be honest with yourself. Check out the labels on where things are made these days. It's hard to find ANYTHING made in the USA. I almost dare you to find shoes, shirts or pants that are still made in the USA. I don't own any. I think I still have a few levi's that are still made in the good ol' USA. But, I buy cloths on sale and that are cheap.... I won't buy cloths that cost over 50 bucks... Yeah I'm a cheap bastard... I'll admit it. Except when it comes to shoes. I buy some of the best ones fron new balance. I almost paid 100 bucks a pair! A lot for me and yes they are made in China.

Even Columbia shirts are made in Thailand. 45 dollar shirts. Oh well.

I bought a Ford pickup... The Engine was actually made in USA but the automatic trans was made in france of all places. Most of it was assembled in Mexico.

More stuff is made in the USA than you want to admit. Textiles are moving out of the country, I will give you that. Yes I do own quite a bit stuff that is made in the USA.

ANd it does not take much luck to find work when the unemployment rate is 5.4%. A number which is below 30 year averages.

 

[Zebo]

Weapons and soldiers is all we need to make in USA. I say we demand 35% GDP from every country or else.

Neo-con, you eiher got it or don't.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: flawlssdistortn
Is there a panel of respected, impartial, economists that can scrutinize both candidates' plans and tell us whether it's gonna fly or not? Im sick of hearing Bush and Kerry spit out all these figures while saying that the other can't pay for it.

The short answer to your questions is "no. there is not a panel of respected, impartial economists, anywhere." Neither Bush nor Kerry has what I would call a brilliant plan for taxes and the American economy; with Bush you can expect more deficits for the forseeable future, and with Kerry you can probably bank on at least a small tax increase if you have income anywhere near 100k or so.

 

[ThunderDawg]

My favorite part was Bush answering
questions on the Environment.

when asked "What Have You Done",
he answered with new proposals,
and things that won't really happen.
But he couldn't list any accomplishments.

 

[TheGameIs21]

Originally posted by: ThunderDawg
My favorite part was Bush answering
questions on the Environment.

when asked "What Have You Done",
he answered with new proposals,
and things that won't really happen.
But he couldn't list any accomplishments.

DING DING DING!!!!

ThunderDawg wins the first I-don't-understand-the-topic-is-so-I'll-just-spew-crap-that-has-nothing-to-do-with-anything-the-OP-stated" award for this thread... Congrats.

Try posting in one of the many debate threads...

 

[flawlssdistortn]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: flawlssdistortn
Is there a panel of respected, impartial, economists that can scrutinize both candidates' plans and tell us whether it's gonna fly or not? Im sick of hearing Bush and Kerry spit out all these figures while saying that the other can't pay for it.

The short answer to your questions is "no. there is not a panel of respected, impartial economists, anywhere." Neither Bush nor Kerry has what I would call a brilliant plan for taxes and the American economy; with Bush you can expect more deficits for the forseeable future, and with Kerry you can probably bank on at least a small tax increase if you have income anywhere near 100k or so.

Ok, so Im guessing if you don't have a degree in economics, you won't be able to tell who's plan is gonna work. I know i don't have a clue. So how are American voters supposed to make a decision?

 

[TheGameIs21]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: TheGameIs21

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Like Bush said tonight, the deficit is due to decreased tax revenues moreso than increased spending, though both are contributors. I think you're spot on.

I also thought it was hillarious that the mod kept trying to get them both to say how they would pay for all their new proposals and neither would.

His response was lame. Sure, there was a decline in Revenues, but approx half the current Deficit is from lost revenues from the Tax Cuts, the other approx half from the Wars and other increased spending.

Half = cutting the taxes of 1% of the taxpayers.
Approx half = wars and increased spending...

You are leaving the huge gap of the loss of tax revenue from the 90's bust... Sorry, you are "approx half" wrong.

Which is?

You stated that approx half is from the Tax Cuts... so you are saying that the Bush Tax Cut was responsible for about 6 Trillion Dollars? Your numbers are WAY OFF.

 

[cpumaster]

I think US economy is not as bad as one side want you to believe nor was it as good as it should be. Cutting taxes while conducting two wars at the same time is not a very smart move, why?
Because it means govt either have to borrow money and increase tax later to pay for them (regardless whether you are republican or democrat) or govt have to cut spending. Naturally many people think cutting spending is preferable, however, because of the war and the security issue, they can not drastically cut spending on military & defense, both are high on the spending list of our budget.
So naturally what they will do is to dip their finger on other budget, education, social program, environment, and even the social security fund, no one will notice because they probably think they they can replace it in the future when there is budget surplus. However, all these program sponsored by the govt are essential in the long run to keep US competitive not just on technology, but also on education, standard of living issue, etc.
Tax cut is not the only way to create job, as some presidential candidate would like you to believe, especially, with budget deficit, it's essentially a loan by the govt to you that your children and grand children will have to pay back later. It makes more sense when there is surplus to give tax back, and to tax more when there's deficit, after all the govt should operate on break even principle theoratically. Of course things are not that simple.
I'd say the bigger threat is job outsourcing not just to the US jobs, but maybe to the economy. It could depend on your view, if you're big corporations, then you're increasing your profit, and thus bringing in more money to US economy. But job outsourcing could really create problem in long run in term of drain of skills & expertise & industrial base of US to other countries. Yet the solution is not simple, leveling the playing field would require more than just giving tax credit to company that stay in US, it require people to take a significant pay cut or moving to other more specialized kind of job. I could see that in the future US could become producer/manufacturer for niche market but unable to compete with China or India on more general produced goods.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: ericlp

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: ericlp
I think computer techs should be getting more then that myself.

That's like saying a doctor should be making 20.00 an hour.... Yes, I use to be a tech. 15 bucks is high end sadly.

Today your lucky to even find a computer job. If your a programmer it is almost impossible since they have well, 90% of them have been outsourced. Yes, India has some smart people...

Funny last week I lost a programming job..and next monday i start a new one. It looks like most of coworkers will be employed real soon as well. Most them already are.

I guess you are one of the lucky ones. Lucky you weren't the ops manager for levi or fretolay...

But be honest with yourself. Check out the labels on where things are made these days. It's hard to find ANYTHING made in the USA. I almost dare you to find shoes, shirts or pants that are still made in the USA. I don't own any. I think I still have a few levi's that are still made in the good ol' USA. But, I buy cloths on sale and that are cheap.... I won't buy cloths that cost over 50 bucks... Yeah I'm a cheap bastard... I'll admit it. Except when it comes to shoes. I buy some of the best ones fron new balance. I almost paid 100 bucks a pair! A lot for me and yes they are made in China.

Even Columbia shirts are made in Thailand. 45 dollar shirts. Oh well.

I bought a Ford pickup... The Engine was actually made in USA but the automatic trans was made in france of all places. Most of it was assembled in Mexico.

More stuff is made in the USA than you want to admit. Textiles are moving out of the country, I will give you that. Yes I do own quite a bit stuff that is made in the USA.

ANd it does not take much luck to find work when the unemployment rate is 5.4%. A number which is below 30 year averages.

Wow, so many folks with their heads in the Sand, they should make on Orstrich Avatar.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: TheGameIs21
Ok... I am getting sick of the Liberals talking about a $9 Trillion Surplus when it is obvious that the surplus was based on the current wages [EDIT]and the business taxes[/edit] of the inflated .com industry. Many A+ techs were gettign $30+ an hour. When an entry level position in a huge new industry is making that much money because of the unbelievable amount of money that was invested in all sectors of that market you are going to have HUGE tax revenue.

After the bust and the A+ was making what an entry level tech should be making (about $15 on the high end) then you are going to see personal income tax revenue drop. Then you have business tax revenue that went through the basement after the great majority of all the .com industry folded with the invested money not staying in circulation.

That is at least half of the reason for our current deficit. This wasn't Clinton's fault either. The problem was caused by a failed (criminal in my opinion) new basis of generating income for a company.

Not that I expect any minds to be changed... I just had to say it...

Go ahead and go off topic... That's what most of you are good at.

It was a projected $5.6 trillion surplus...not $9 trillion.

And, remember, Paul O'Neill and Alan Greenspan wanted triggers attached to the tax cuts to protect that surplus should the economy worsen or, at least, to prevent a fall into more debt should the projected surplus disappear.

Bush would have none of that.

The one campaign promise he *didn't* flip-flop on and it's cost this country trillions of dollars and removed an opportunity to make Social Security solvent.

 

[KenSr]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Like Bush said tonight, the deficit is due to decreased tax revenues moreso than increased spending, though both are contributors. I think you're spot on.

I also thought it was hillarious that the mod kept trying to get them both to say how they would pay for all their new proposals and neither would.

His response was lame. Sure, there was a decline in Revenues, but approx half the current Deficit is from lost revenues from the Tax Cuts, the other approx half from the Wars and other increased spending.

The tax cuts were supposed increase revenues, but Bush was wrong about that too.