My view on Windows 8 and the history of Microsoft OS

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Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
I wasn't trying to stir up this kind of response, but rather just let it sink in what your role to the business was/is versus your opinion on that.
The problem(s) are with Windows 8's bastardized UI. You replied to deflect from that, with, "I'd say at the end of the day, it wasn't your call," which was never in question to begin with, and has no bearing on the problem--IE, that such UIs should not be allowed to make it out of Redmond. What kind of response was that intended to stir up?

Microsoft should have learned the lesson from Vista when companies shipped that OS on inadequate computers.

If Microsoft included an option to go back to a Win7 like interface on computers without a touch screen there would not be as many threads on different forums about how Win 8 sucks (it doesn't but the UI is questionable to say the least).
The UI is a good 90% of the OS, at this point. The basics under the hood are good enough, and are expected to get incremental improvements. It needs to be the focus, with plenty of research, including actual user testing and feedback of changes. A few major negatives can, will, and do cause all the positives to simply not matter, so long as those negative aspects remain. If the UI isn't good, the OS isn't good, no matter what else they've done. We didn't worry much through the betas, because, with the start menu still there, it was easy enough to mostly ignore Metro, which would have been fine for release, honestly (not perfect, but phone/tablet and desktop/workstation have to come together at some point, and that would allow for a decent start).
 
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Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
The biggest issue I hear about Windows 8 is this summed up in one line. “I tried that Windows 8, hated it and had my buddy install Windows 7” Two things stand out to me here, No-one spent time to try it past a day or two and they are confused about how to use it. Microsoft changed too much too quickly for the average user. This is where I differ from the norm. I don’t mind learning a new way to do things. I can adapt quickly to just about any OS. Most people however cannot.

Now I ask you, what do you think about Windows 8?

I'll offer my 2 cents. I spent 5 months with Windows 8 on a test machine, using it daily. And still hated it. From an enthusiast perspective, its a step backward in every respect. When I rebuilt my desktop this past week, I installed Windows 7 even though I knew I'd have to go through the automated telephone activation system again due to the hardware changes, and I have a Win8 license and install media sitting within arms reach the entire time.

I had enough work to do migrating data from old drives to new, reinstalling games, redoing game mods etc, then having to deal with the headaches imposed by the broken new UI and spending a day trying to un-Metro Windows 8.

The first thing someone sees if they upgrade their computer to Windows 8 is not the familiar desktop, with the screen full of shortcuts, but a new Start Screen filled with colorful flipping tiles. Microsofts answer to this drastic change was a short “tutorial” explain the charms bar and application bar. I am sure this tutorial was ignored by almost everyone. This lead to people having no idea what to do. They look to the internet, read all kinds of bad posts from their friend’s experiences and give up. Go back to what they know and repeat the cycle.

A tutorial would only go far when the UI is broken at such a low level. A better solution would have been to keep the more traditional UI as an option that the user could enable that would completely disable the Metro/Start Screen UI.

The only things Microsoft did with Metro were 1)Piss their customers off, 2)poison the corporate well, 3)advance Linux gaming more in 12 months than it had in 20 years, and 4)give OEMs reason to skin the OS. Thats just what we needed, Acer/Asus/Samsung/HP/Dell/etc skins on top of Windows to make it usable.

but phone/tablet and desktop/workstation have to come together at some point, and that would allow for a decent start).

With these devices being radically different, attempts to merge the two UIs will always end in failure. Play to the strengths of each and develop accordingly. A phone is not a workstation, and a tablet is not a desktop.
 
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Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
With these devices being radically different, attempts to merge the two UIs will always end in failure. Play to the strengths of each and develop accordingly. A phone is not a workstation, and a tablet is not a desktop.
No, a tablet is not a desktop. But many tablets are notebooks, and many desktops are practically stationary tablets. The hardware is here. Tablets that plug into keyboards or other docks, touch AIOs, touch-enabled notebooks...sure it's all half-assed, right now, but it's all pretty new, as far as mass market users go. But, they're here, and we need software to catch up and make good use of them. MS, meanwhile, needs to do some serious thinking, when their next CEO comes on board, because when they screw up, they still get left supporting that for many years, and force software vendors in the mean time to also support their mistakes for years. Clearly, how they develop needs to change.

Programs for Real Computing Work(tm) need the information density that a mouse/trackball/tit-centric GUI can provide, plus keyboard controls. None of that is going away, for those users. Hell, you can still easily buy PCs with serial and parallel ports.

But there's a lot of the interface where none of that matters, and merging it by making the mobile/touch version as powerful as the older version, even if it means a few more clicks, would result in a product that would be, on the whole, superior, because new tablets, convertibles, touch-enabled notebooks, and touch-enabled AIOs, would be much easier to use that way, for much of their common use.

Pretty much all of Control Panel, that isn't in the MMC, could be well replaced by streamlined mobile-friendly interfaces, instead of keeping all of the older ones around. Doing so would then have the side benefit of making those "toys" more powerful, on the software side of things. If they focused on making that side of things better, effectively empowering it, we would be better off. Programs and features, Devices and Printers, Sound, Mouse, keyboard, game controllers, network options, personalization, power options, and so on, could easily be made with touch-friendly interfaces, without losing one little bit of functionality. Doing that, they could push upon us one big learning curve for version n+1, refined in n+2, and then we can move on, with Windows phones, tablets, notebooks, etc., all basically just being tweaked implementations of the core Windows, but still feature-complete.

IoW, if the new style UI were the only one for that set of options, and it offered the same functionality, and it played nice with the same window management (Windows 8 gets a false for all 3), it would be a good excuse to do things like redesign the whole of devices and printers, the network config dialogs, etc., based on a solid well-thought-out HIG. Much of those interfaces are OK, not because they're good, but that they've changed so little over the last 15 years that we know them well. Empowering tablet users would be as good of an excuse as any to redo them, IMO.

Where the UIs are too different, like gestures, and hiding whatever at screen edges and corners, such features should be configurable, preferably by conditional rules (IE, just like having different AC and DC power options, you could have docked and undocked, or keyboard or keyboardless, GUI options). What Sinofsky and others around him fail to grasp is that what we need is to make these new (in the sense that regular people use them, now) form factors better, so that they become less toy-like, rather than dumb down the main OS and programs to match the competitors' toy device UIs. Thinking that people want only dumb appliances is not seeing the forest for the trees: such interfaces and devices are currently the only economically viable way to have such technology, so it's what we've got. As their RAM and CPU power improves (namely, RAM bandwidth and caches), the OS' UI is gradually is becoming the main limiting factor, behind the human interface itself.
 
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Maximilian

Lifer
Feb 8, 2004
12,603
9
81
With these devices being radically different, attempts to merge the two UIs will always end in failure. Play to the strengths of each and develop accordingly. A phone is not a workstation, and a tablet is not a desktop.

Indeed, plenty of software is written to be used with different UI's anyways without screwing around with the core system. No reason why windows cant be the same across many platforms but using the appropriate UI that suits its install domain.

Its all just MS's bad idea to sell people on their tablets and phones which look and feel like windows 8.
 

speedycrow chad

Junior Member
Sep 7, 2013
2
0
0
speedycrow.com
I demoed windows 8 on a laptop when me and my dad were looking at laptops for my 25th birthday present.

I just didn't like the way it was laid out and not having that start menue put me off it.

I'm sure I could get used to windows 8 if I sat down and learned my way around it.

But I went with a windows 7 Toshiba Satellite Laptop.

Chad
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,660
491
126
The UI is a good 90% of the OS, at this point.
It is 90% of what the User sees and percieves however given the fact that the UI replacements aren't much larger than 10 mb if that then it's safe to say that perception doesn't really always match reality given that the typical installation of windows 7 and 8 are larger than 10 gigs.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
It is 90% of what the User sees and percieves however given the fact that the UI replacements aren't much larger than 10 mb if that then it's safe to say that perception doesn't really always match reality given that the typical installation of windows 7 and 8 are larger than 10 gigs.
Wait, what?

- The UI is 90% of what the user sees and perceives.
- The above doesn't matter because a UI replacement, which may as well be an ancient Sumerian term to most users, is small in size.

Can you maybe elaborate on how those two have any connection at all?
 

glugglug

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2002
5,340
1
81
There are a lot of improvements in Windows 8 vs. Windows 7 that the average user would never notice, for example:

- Better power management
- Windows 8 RDP (aka RemoteFX) recognizes DirectPlay video APIs and sends the raw H.264 or VC-1 or whatever data you are playing over the RDP stream instead of trying to do realtime compression of what is on the screen for that area, making it quite smooth. It even supports Aero transparency effects over RDP (once you enable them with StartIsBack, LOL).
- Much better task manager, once you click "More" to get past the idiotic new default view.

However, the out-of-the-box interface is an unusable abomination. Windows 8 + StartIsBack is probably better than Windows 7. Windows 8 as-is is crap.
 

jiffylube1024

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
7,430
0
71
Having used Windows 8 as a daily driver for a couple of months on a Dell 15" 1080p laptop, and then again demo'd Windows 8.1 on my desktop PC (before deciding I still prefer Windows 7 for that), I feel like Windows 8 is essentially 2 steps forward, 1 step backwards. And one of those forward steps, the Metro/"Windows Design Language"/Start screen (& environment) aren't ready for prime time yet. I was shocked at how lacking the Windows Store still is for apps; even basic apps like Youtube, Dropbox, Huffington Post, Kindle, Evernote and Facebook are inferior (sometimes vastly so) to their Android and iOS cousins. The Windows Store really needs to get its act in gear.


I'm very happy about the improved DPI scaling in Windows 8.1, however I have a bizarre issue. In Windows 7, on my 27" 1440p screen, I set the Display scaling to 125%, and Windows basically bumps up the font and icon sizes to make things more legible. Works like a charm.

In Windows 8, When I use 125% or 150% Display scaling, it scales EVERYTHING to that setting, and it does apply ClearType/smoothing, however two issues arise. One is that some apps aren't "native" to the DPI scaling and appear blurry (many installers for programs, also Google Chrome and several other programs). This is annoying. The other is that, while the native text and UI looks sharp, I find that I get serious eye fatigue using the OS for about an hour, like the DPI scaling/smoothing looks pretty sharp but it's not quite perfect, and it hurts my eyes. I wonder if anyone else with a 27" 1440p IPS display and using 125%/150% DPI scaling has this issue. It really bothered me!!

----------

As for the actual Windows 8 OS itself, I too feel like the disjointed hydra that is Windows 8 is annoying on desktop or laptop, non-touch computers. I find Windows 8 without a Start8 type program to bring back the Start menu to be borderline unusable, and yes I did "give it a chance" but I won't accept going about things in a slower way than before - that is unacceptable to me! Jumping in and out of the Start screen is a pointlessly slow endeavor when that interface isn't even necessary on a desktop machine.


Another minor quibble is that, while the Windows 8 desktop UI is fine and all, I find it actually is less pretty than Windows 7's Aero interface. The flatter/less transparent design feels like it's built for inferior hardware. Again, why no option of a legacy Aero interface?

Unfortunately I feel like the forcing of a new UI (Metro) is Windows 8's biggest foible. If they just put an out-of-the-box option to enable full Windows 7 legacy mode with start screen, I think pretty much everyone would upgrade because the underpinnings are basically Windows 7 with a few improvements. However, forcing us to learn this new, touch-based UI, while a good idea for moving forward, is pointless for many desktop users, and doubly so because the Windows Store is so incomplete and half baked right now.

-------

To those saying that Windows 7 is a 'tired' looking OS (or things to that effect) -- while that may be true on a 10" tablet, it's certainly not true on a desktop, especially a 2+ screen multimonitor environment. I want my desktop UI to be clean, easy to navigate, unobtrusive, consistent. Windows 7 meets all of these criteria more than any other desktop OS. W7 is my favourite desktop OS, so much so that I often switch back and forth on my laptop because I find Mac OS X a nuisance at times.
 
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Rhonda the Sly

Senior member
Nov 22, 2007
818
4
76
In Windows 8, When I use 125% or 150% Display scaling, it scales EVERYTHING to that setting, and it does apply ClearType/smoothing, however two issues arise. One is that some apps aren't "native" to the DPI scaling and appear blurry (many installers for programs, also Google Chrome and several other programs).
The way it scales everything up sounds like the way it has always worked, at least for me. The way things are blurry seems to suggest to me that "Use Windows XP style scaling", which is turned on by default, is turned off in Custom Sizing Options within Display. What Windows is doing is rendering the app to a bitmap and scaling that.

Another minor quibble is that, while the Windows 8 desktop UI is fine and all, I find it actually is less pretty than Windows 7's Aero interface. The flatter/less transparent design feels like it's built for inferior hardware. Again, why no option of a legacy Aero interface?
Windows 8's Aero theme fits more with Microsoft's design language. That's it. They ship a product that fits their design language and, if you want to change it, that's up to you.
 

Concillian

Diamond Member
May 26, 2004
3,751
8
81
Now I ask you, what do you think about Windows 8?

I've been using the free 8.1 release since I'm going to have to buy either Win7 or Win8 to run my Haswell since Intel isn't supporting vista on 1150 chipsets (which I was really quite surprised by... Vista is not that old, and they supported the much older XP for 1155 chipsets)

I use 7 at work, and it's pretty much the same usability and experience as Vista, with minor tweaks.

Win 8 I basically have struggled with the inconsistency between desktop apps and metro apps.
As an example, if I use RMB in desktop, there will be a vertical list context menu at the location of the mouse pointer.
If I use RMB in the start screen or metro app... there will be a horizontal list at the bottom of the screen.

It is inconsistencies like this that make me feel a bit disoriented when using the OS. Can I adapt? Sure, I could. However, the fact that something as simple as RMB is not consistent throughout the OS has me mentally pausing whenever I need to RMB. I think for a sec because I don't automatically know what's going to happen. Personally, I think this is downright atrocious design. A function as ubiquitous as clicking the right mouse button should not bring up a menu in one of multiple different ways. It should have consistency with location and orientation of the menu.

If you can manage to use Win8 without using metro apps, then Win8, as a UI, ends up being on par with Vista or Win7. Once you add metro apps, you end up with some functions acting inconsistent with what they do in a normal desktop app. I found this quite disorienting as a user. As did my 69 year old mother who recently bought a new (Win8) laptop. Thankfully she got the "call anytime" support with it so she could bug them instead of me to teach her how to get around in Win8.

I'm still not 100% sure which I'll go with. I like new features of the Win8 OS, like extremely fast boot... but the UI experience really bothers me. Like the ribbon interface, sometimes I curse the UI in my head as I'm using it.
 
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DarkRipper

Golden Member
Jun 29, 2000
1,351
0
71
I bought my daughters three new Lenovo laptops with Windows 8 on them for school back in august.
This was my first experience with Windows 8 in any form, and I found the new interface to be very frustrating (IT background MS certs years in the field supporting desktop/laptop from WinNT/98-Win7), particularly when trying to do administrative tasks.

I did some research and found classic shell, which when installed and configured made the OS far more user-friendly.

I like Win8 with classic shell so much that when I recently finished my new mini-ITX gaming computer, I put Win8 64bit on it (which I had to buy the license and media for) instead of the Win7 64bit OS license I already own.

I've noticed that memory usage seems better, power consumption is better, and boot/down times are faster (although some of that is the higher end SSD I used in the build).

In my humble opinion, if they'd put the option to go back to a 'classic' style UI with a start button they'd have a real winner, like WinXP over 2k, and 7 64bit over XP 32 bit.
 

Berryracer

Platinum Member
Oct 4, 2006
2,779
1
81
I bought my daughters three new Lenovo laptops with Windows 8 on them for school back in august.
This was my first experience with Windows 8 in any form, and I found the new interface to be very frustrating (IT background MS certs years in the field supporting desktop/laptop from WinNT/98-Win7), particularly when trying to do administrative tasks.

I did some research and found classic shell, which when installed and configured made the OS far more user-friendly.

I like Win8 with classic shell so much that when I recently finished my new mini-ITX gaming computer, I put Win8 64bit on it (which I had to buy the license and media for) instead of the Win7 64bit OS license I already own.

I've noticed that memory usage seems better, power consumption is better, and boot/down times are faster (although some of that is the higher end SSD I used in the build).

In my humble opinion, if they'd put the option to go back to a 'classic' style UI with a start button they'd have a real winner, like WinXP over 2k, and 7 64bit over XP 32 bit.

So now that you have Classic Shell installed, there is no reason you shouldn't like Windows 8 right?

By the way, classic chell is not bad but try StartIsBack it is not only a startmenu replacement, but it actually makes your Windows 8 look and feel exactly like Windows 7, same exact start menu not some wanna be replica.

It is free to try for 30 days with no nags to activate or anything until the trial period expires, and the license costs only $3 USD for 5 PCs so it's a great deal

PS: Other start menu alternative such as Stardock's Start8 impose a limit on how many times you can activate it then they blacklist your key, but StartIsBack will never do this as long as you are installing the license on the same 5 PCs or so. It takes not of the PC specs and PC name so it knows you are not trying to use it on another PC illegally.
 

DarkRipper

Golden Member
Jun 29, 2000
1,351
0
71
That's right, with the start button back I prefer Win8 to Win7.

I'll check out the Startisback software if I have any issues with classic shell. So far it's been sufficient for my needs.
 
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