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mwd410

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2004
15
0
0
Originally posted by: smack Down

Work is the change in potential energy the potential energy of the car. There is no change when the car is driving at a constant speed on level ground.

i'm going to take the time to address a few things you're talking about because i feel you have a very strong intuition (this is obvious) but also a slightly skewed grasp of the physics involved. i'd really like you to take the time to understand the following.

work is not a change in potential energy. work is a change in KINETIC energy. it's kind of a hard concept to grab, however i'll try to explain.

perhaps the easiest to understand form of potential energy is height. in this case, potential energy is defined as

U(h) = mgh

where U is potential energy, m is the mass of the object, g is the acceleration due to gravity (approximated at 9.8 m/s^2), and h is the height of the object RELATIVE to a SPECIFIC point. notice that U is a function of h. one cannot say "what is the potential energy of this book" because it is a function of relative position. one must say, "what is the potential energy of this book in relation to the floor," which is easily calculable. it is entirely possible to change the total energy of a system without doing a significant amount of work. that is to say, one can change the total energy of a system by doing an amount of work that is so minuscule as to be negligible and essentially ignored. this is possible by moving a book up very slowly at a constant speed. now, the only work that was done was the slight change of kinetic energy by applying a vertical force to the book that is slightly greater than its force due to gravity for a very small period of time. something very hard to understand is once the book is moving even the slightest amount, if the velocity remains constant, there is no work being done. this is because the NET force is zero. a net force of anything other than zero requires an acceleration. so, while the book is moving upwards at a constant velocity, the force applied on the book by your hand or whatever is raising it is EXACTLY EQUAL to the force applied on the book by gravity.

so, one changes the height of the book, adding a negligible amount of kinetic energy to the system, and in turn doing a negligible amount of work, all while increasing the mechanical energy. now notice i said mechanical energy. this is a measurement of the TOTAL energy of a system, that is Kinetic and potential. kinetic energy has many forms but the most common and basic equation would be

K(v) = 1/2 m V^2.

K is kinetic energy, m is the mass of the object, and V is the velocity at which the object is moving. again, notice that kinetic energy is a function of VELOCITY. Mechanical energy is DEFINED as the sum of the two, (my three line definition symbol is crude, but it gets the point across)

E = K + U = 1/2mv^2 + mgh

we have to make the distinction between being defined as and being equal to for the simple reason that K is a function of velocity and U is a function of position.

now, i'm gonna go out on a limb here and get a little fancy, but you can skip this next section if you'd like and i'll point out where you should come back. another form of potential energy could be in a spring. if one pulls an object attached to a spring at a constant velocity in the same manner we raised the book, we can change the potential energy of the system while doing negligible work. the Force of the spring is as follows

F = -kx

where k is the spring's constant and x is the position FROM EQUILIBRIUM of the object. Force is the negative derivative of potential energy, that is

F = -dU/dx

which also means

U = -[[integral]] F

this is an easy integral, which yields the following

U(x) = 1/2 k x^2

notice potential energy in this case is a function of x which is the distance relative to the equilibrium.

***continued important stuff***
also notice that the EXTERNAL force of the spring, and the EXTERNAL force of gravity are all opposite the direction of the displacement used for potential energy.



so, we return to the car traveling at a constant velocity of 1m/s. you are entirely correct in saying there is no work being done when the car is moving at a constant velocity of 1m/s. well... almost correct. there is no NET work being done. there is work being done by the car, but there is an equal amount of work being done by friction and air resistance (which of course is like saying i like all apples and granny smiths, because air resistance is a form of friction) in the opposite direction. the largest form amount of frictional work being done at these speeds is going to be the car itself. the engine, the drive train, the wheels, etc, all have an amount of friction, which coupled by the air resistance is going to be equal to the amount of work done in actuality by the combustion of the fuel in the pistons. it's kind of hard to see but consider the following.

if there was no friction besides the friction between the wheels and the ground (ignoring the belt for now) then the car would be accelerating at a constant acceleration of 1m/s^2, which is your figure. this is because the car is exerting a force on the road. if we have a 1000kg car, the force would be 1000 N because F = ma.

if we add in friction the picture changes. assuming the force exerted by the engine is a constant 1000 N the whole way through, we have the following scenario. the air resistance, or should i really just say air friction, the friction of the drive train and all other moving parts in the car all add up to 1000 N. friction by definition is always in the opposite direction of motion. therefore, there is actually a considerable amount of total work being done. the car is doing X amount of Joules over a certain distance, and the friction is doing the same amount of X Joules over the same distance in the opposite direction. therefore, the net work being done is zero (because the net force is zero).


the most recent addition to the confusion is the subject of the rocket car. you're asking where the energy goes. well very simply, it goes into propelling the car forward. a normal car uses the energy to supply a torque to the wheel, which off of the belt supplies a force to the ground. if the friction between the wheels and the road is great enough so the wheels don't slip, the car is propelled forward. however, with the rocket car, things are slightly different. this time, the force of the engine is pushing on the air behind it. now we know newton's little handy dandy law that states for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. so, the rocket pushes against the air, the air pushes back, and the car is propelled forward.

I think we might be ready to jump on the conveyor belt.

the normal car on the conveyor belt is easy to see. the normal car's engine exerts a torque on the wheels which supply a force to the conveyor belt. the conveyor belt pushes back, and the car is propelled forward relative to the conveyor belt. unfortunately for the car, the belt moves backwards relative to the ground at the same speed the car is moving forwards relative to the conveyor belt. therefore, the car is moving forwards at 1m/s, relative to the belt, the belt is moving back at 1m/s relative to the ground, so the net speed between the car and the ground is 0 m/s.

the rocket car's rocket pushes on the air behind it, which pushes back on the car, propelling the car forward. the conveyor belt however, moves backwards at the same speed the car is moving forwards. here's the difference however. because the car is pushing against the air, the force applied by the conveyor belt onto the wheels only causes the wheels to move at double speed. so, the car moves forward at 1m/s relative to the ground, and the conveyor belt moves backwards at 1m/s relative to the ground. however, the car is moving forwards at 2m/s relative to the conveyor belt, and indeed the wheels are turning as fast. therefore, the rocket car will be propelled forward.

if we look at the plane, we have the same scenario as the rocket car. the plane pushes back on the air, which pushes forward on the plane. the conveyor belt moves back at the same speed, but the wheels rotate at twice the speed, allowing the plane to be propelled forward.

the difference simply is upon what the force is being applied. because the wheels of a car are applying a force to nothing but the conveyor belt, the conveyor belt has an affect on the speed of the wheels which are attached to the car. relativistically speaking, this is essentially the same as driving next to a car on the highway. from the observer in the car, the road is simply a conveyor belt that is moving backwards while the car next to him is trying to move forwards. however, because the road is moving backwards, the car is stationary relative to the observer. in the real conveyor belt, the "observer" could simply be considered the ground.

i hope i've helped. if you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
I think we might be ready to jump on the conveyor belt.

the normal car on the conveyor belt is easy to see. the normal car's engine exerts a torque on the wheels which supply a force to the conveyor belt. the conveyor belt pushes back, and the car is propelled forward relative to the conveyor belt. unfortunately for the car, the belt moves backwards relative to the ground at the same speed the car is moving forwards relative to the conveyor belt. therefore, the car is moving forwards at 1m/s, relative to the belt, the belt is moving back at 1m/s relative to the ground, so the net speed between the car and the ground is 0 m/s.

the rocket car's rocket pushes on the air behind it, which pushes back on the car, propelling the car forward. the conveyor belt however, moves backwards at the same speed the car is moving forwards. here's the difference however. because the car is pushing against the air, the force applied by the conveyor belt onto the wheels only causes the wheels to move at double speed. so, the car moves forward at 1m/s relative to the ground, and the conveyor belt moves backwards at 1m/s relative to the ground. however, the car is moving forwards at 2m/s relative to the conveyor belt, and indeed the wheels are turning as fast. therefore, the rocket car will be propelled forward.

You just changed how the conveyor belt works between the two cars or you broke the law of conservation of energy.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,173
5,735
126
One easy way to test this whole situation out would be to take a Float Plane and have it attempt Take Off against a River current. It's not exactly the same situation, as the Pontoons will have much greater Friction than Wheels, but it would prove beyond a doubt that contrary movement has little to no effect.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: smack Down
I think we might be ready to jump on the conveyor belt.

the normal car on the conveyor belt is easy to see. the normal car's engine exerts a torque on the wheels which supply a force to the conveyor belt. the conveyor belt pushes back, and the car is propelled forward relative to the conveyor belt. unfortunately for the car, the belt moves backwards relative to the ground at the same speed the car is moving forwards relative to the conveyor belt. therefore, the car is moving forwards at 1m/s, relative to the belt, the belt is moving back at 1m/s relative to the ground, so the net speed between the car and the ground is 0 m/s.

the rocket car's rocket pushes on the air behind it, which pushes back on the car, propelling the car forward. the conveyor belt however, moves backwards at the same speed the car is moving forwards. here's the difference however. because the car is pushing against the air, the force applied by the conveyor belt onto the wheels only causes the wheels to move at double speed. so, the car moves forward at 1m/s relative to the ground, and the conveyor belt moves backwards at 1m/s relative to the ground. however, the car is moving forwards at 2m/s relative to the conveyor belt, and indeed the wheels are turning as fast. therefore, the rocket car will be propelled forward.

You just changed how the conveyor belt works between the two cars or you broke the law of conservation of energy.

whats amazing is he put it in a easy to understand way. but you are either stupid or a troll.

 

mwd410

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2004
15
0
0
Originally posted by: smack Down
I think we might be ready to jump on the conveyor belt.

the normal car on the conveyor belt is easy to see. the normal car's engine exerts a torque on the wheels which supply a force to the conveyor belt. the conveyor belt pushes back, and the car is propelled forward relative to the conveyor belt. unfortunately for the car, the belt moves backwards relative to the ground at the same speed the car is moving forwards relative to the conveyor belt. therefore, the car is moving forwards at 1m/s, relative to the belt, the belt is moving back at 1m/s relative to the ground, so the net speed between the car and the ground is 0 m/s.

the rocket car's rocket pushes on the air behind it, which pushes back on the car, propelling the car forward. the conveyor belt however, moves backwards at the same speed the car is moving forwards. here's the difference however. because the car is pushing against the air, the force applied by the conveyor belt onto the wheels only causes the wheels to move at double speed. so, the car moves forward at 1m/s relative to the ground, and the conveyor belt moves backwards at 1m/s relative to the ground. however, the car is moving forwards at 2m/s relative to the conveyor belt, and indeed the wheels are turning as fast. therefore, the rocket car will be propelled forward.

You just changed how the conveyor belt works between the two cars or you broke the law of conservation of energy.

ok i think the problem is you actually have no idea what the law of conservation of energy states. what do you think the law of conservation of energy states? and how EXACTLY does it pertain to this problem?
 

mwd410

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2004
15
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
One easy way to test this whole situation out would be to take a Float Plane and have it attempt Take Off against a River current. It's not exactly the same situation, as the Pontoons will have much greater Friction than Wheels, but it would prove beyond a doubt that contrary movement has little to no effect.

yeah unfortunately it's not really an equal situation as you've stated mainly because the pontoons have to cut through the current, overcoming the kinetic friction of the water rushing against them, and potentially if the current is strong enough, the plane would have difficulty taking off, but i do think that it could most likely be done--maybe with just a longer runway whereas the normal plane has wheels which aren't really overcoming the friction between their surface. they're using static friction (if smack down would like, i can go into detail the difference between static and kinetic friction) and actually, the surface of the wheels aren't even moving relative to the surface of the conveyor belt. the only hindrance would be the friction of the axles, which as we know, are very well made and i doubt the wheels would have any trouble spinning the extra speed.
 

hellokeith

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2004
1,664
0
0
Originally posted by: hiromizu
What really happens is the plane's front wheels will lock up preventing the pilot from making corrections in yaw drift during the take off run causing the plane to veer off the treadmill and crash. Another possibility due to the plane's wheels having to turn much faster than designed for the plane to ever achieve the required take off airspeed, the wheel bearings will catch fire, wheels breaking off and causing the plane to crash n burn.

Nice to see someone with engineering skills doing some critical thinking.

I brought up the tire issue long ago, but physics/math geeks don't like to deal with real world issues..
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: mwd410
Originally posted by: smack Down
I think we might be ready to jump on the conveyor belt.

the normal car on the conveyor belt is easy to see. the normal car's engine exerts a torque on the wheels which supply a force to the conveyor belt. the conveyor belt pushes back, and the car is propelled forward relative to the conveyor belt. unfortunately for the car, the belt moves backwards relative to the ground at the same speed the car is moving forwards relative to the conveyor belt. therefore, the car is moving forwards at 1m/s, relative to the belt, the belt is moving back at 1m/s relative to the ground, so the net speed between the car and the ground is 0 m/s.

the rocket car's rocket pushes on the air behind it, which pushes back on the car, propelling the car forward. the conveyor belt however, moves backwards at the same speed the car is moving forwards. here's the difference however. because the car is pushing against the air, the force applied by the conveyor belt onto the wheels only causes the wheels to move at double speed. so, the car moves forward at 1m/s relative to the ground, and the conveyor belt moves backwards at 1m/s relative to the ground. however, the car is moving forwards at 2m/s relative to the conveyor belt, and indeed the wheels are turning as fast. therefore, the rocket car will be propelled forward.

You just changed how the conveyor belt works between the two cars or you broke the law of conservation of energy.

ok i think the problem is you actually have no idea what the law of conservation of energy states. what do you think the law of conservation of energy states? and how EXACTLY does it pertain to this problem?

Lets try this again. When talking about the rocket car do you agree with the following:

1. m is the mass of the car, i is the moment of inertia for the wheels.
2. The rocket puts out a force such that the car accelerates at 1 m/s.
3. When the treadmill is off the cars energy is m + i
4. that the treadmill does not transfer any energy towards the forward movement of the car.
5. That no energy is converted into heat, light or other forms. It is all converted to kinetic energy
6. That the rocket car produces the same amount of force on the treadmill as off the treadmill
7. That you claim the car will have a wheel speed of 2m/s and car speed of 1 m/s when placed on the treadmill
8. That a wheel speed of 2 m/s and a car speed of 1 m/s is greater total energy then a wheel speed of 1 m/s and a car speed of 1 m/s

See you violated the rule of conservation of energy because you created more energy. Please just state a number you disagree with and how it is wrong.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,445
126
Originally posted by: CorCentral
Originally posted by: coldmeat
Originally posted by: ShockwaveVT
mods, whatever happened to issuing vacations to blatant trolls like smack Down?

p.s. I'm curious to see if the mythbusters use a full-size plane (like a Cessna) or if they utilize a model airplane.

Here's a preview

Even the Pilot think he's not going to take off. What an idiot.
I'm going to BOLD this and make it known.


MODS........ I BEG you to Ban me for 1mth from ANANDTECH if I'm wrong on this!
I'm saying the plane will fly!
Let's see if other Members have the Balls to step forward for a 1 mth Ban if they are wrong. Remember, you are asking to be banned if your are wrong!!!!

Who do I have with me on this? :camera: ....... If you're not sure, then don't commit! :laugh:

That's pretty ballsy, man... considering that most Mythbusters experiments over the past two seasons have either crashed or blown up.

Maybe the punishment for being wrong should be putting a message like "I'm a tool for thinking that the plane would take off" in your sig for a month
 

mwd410

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2004
15
0
0
Originally posted by: smack Down
Lets try this again. When talking about the rocket car do you agree with the following:

1. m is the mass of the car, i is the moment of inertia for the wheels.
2. The rocket puts out a force such that the car accelerates at 1 m/s.
3. When the treadmill is off the cars energy is m + i
4. that the treadmill does not transfer any energy towards the forward movement of the car.
5. That no energy is converted into heat, light or other forms. It is all converted to kinetic energy
6. That the rocket car produces the same amount of force on the treadmill as off the treadmill
7. That you claim the car will have a wheel speed of 2m/s and car speed of 1 m/s when placed on the treadmill
8. That a wheel speed of 2 m/s and a car speed of 1 m/s is greater total energy then a wheel speed of 1 m/s and a car speed of 1 m/s

See you violated the rule of conservation of energy because you created more energy. Please just state a number you disagree with and how it is wrong.

Ok i think i see what's going on. your confusing conservation of energy. first of all, number 5 is a completely false statement.

first off, the law of conservation of energy pertaining to all forms of energy states that energy is never lost, only transformed into other states. potential, kinetic, heat, etc.

what you are discussing is the conservation of mechanical energy... or rather what you think you're talking about. with the conservation of mechanical energy, the only time the energy is conserved is with conservative forces, like gravity or a spring. when you have friction, which is a non conservative force, the mechanical energy is not conserved. some of the energy is lost to heat and some of it to sound, and even some of it to in some cases light (though this is not one of those cases). blah blah blah, the most important part of the conservation of energy is that it only the SAME SYSTEM. you can not say two different cars with two different circumstances and having the two systems have different amounts of energy, which means that energy isn't conserved. there is nothing to be conserved between two different systems. the law of the conservation of energy is only relevant when speaking of 1 system, the same system, AND if it is being acted on ONLY by conservative forces.

this is a simple example of a valid use of the conservation of energy.

a 5kg ball is thrown directly up from ground level with a velocity of 2m/s. what is the maximum height of the ball's trajectory?

an easy way of accomplishing this is by using the conservation of energy (it can also be easily solved with basic kinematic equations, but we're using this)

m = 5kg
Vi = 2m/s
Vf = 0m/s
hi = 0m
hf = ?

the problem states that the ball is thrown from ground level, which means it has zero potential energy. therefore, the mechanical energy is entirely kinetic.

E = 1/2 m Vi^2 + m g hi = 1/2(5kg)(2m/s)^2 + 0 = 10 J

now, at the top of the trajectory, the acceleration is still 9.8m/s^2 downwards, but the velocity is 0. therefore, the energy of the system at this point is entirely potential and no kinetic. h is the height variable we are trying to determine.

E = 1/2 m Vf^2 + m g hf = [(5kg)(9.8m/s^2)hf] J

now, because the energy is conserved, the amount of energy we started with will be equal to the amount of energy we end with.

10 J = [(5kg)(9.8m/s^2) hf] J

2/9.8 = hf

hf = 0.2 meters. we use one significant digit because that's what we have for our given conditions.




smack down, what you are talking about is NOT conservation of energy. in fact, the law needn't be spoken of in any way, shape, or form at all to discuss this problem. what we have is two completely different systems which have no relation to each other whatsoever, though i'm certain you'll find something else faulty, in which case i'll spend another hour posting a lengthly in depth physically sound description of the elements that you are confusing. hopefully however, i might have explained things in a way that will have you understand where you are faltering. if you are in a position where you might be embarrassed that you have been proven wrong, dont' be embarrassed. we would rather have you admit that you were wrong and learn something from it, than to continually deny it. however, if you are still in a situation where you are not seeing eye to eye with the sound physics i'm explaining to you, then i'll be more than happy to continue to help you. but for now, signing out, and goodnight.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: mwd410
Originally posted by: smack Down
Lets try this again. When talking about the rocket car do you agree with the following:

1. m is the mass of the car, i is the moment of inertia for the wheels.
2. The rocket puts out a force such that the car accelerates at 1 m/s.
3. When the treadmill is off the cars energy is m + i
4. that the treadmill does not transfer any energy towards the forward movement of the car.
5. That no energy is converted into heat, light or other forms. It is all converted to kinetic energy
6. That the rocket car produces the same amount of force on the treadmill as off the treadmill
7. That you claim the car will have a wheel speed of 2m/s and car speed of 1 m/s when placed on the treadmill
8. That a wheel speed of 2 m/s and a car speed of 1 m/s is greater total energy then a wheel speed of 1 m/s and a car speed of 1 m/s

See you violated the rule of conservation of energy because you created more energy. Please just state a number you disagree with and how it is wrong.

Ok i think i see what's going on. your confusing conservation of energy. first of all, number 5 is a completely false statement.

[/b] Not in my system. it is perfect so there are no loses. If you wish to calculate them go for it but it won't make a difference. It will only make me more right[/b]

first off, the law of conservation of energy pertaining to all forms of energy states that energy is never lost, only transformed into other states. potential, kinetic, heat, etc.

[/b] Very good we are transforming the chemical energy of the rocket fuel into kinetic energy and only kinetic energy so the rocket is perfect with no waste heat, no friction, and the treadmill is flat so no change in potential energy.[/b]

what you are discussing is the conservation of mechanical energy... or rather what you think you're talking about. with the conservation of mechanical energy, the only time the energy is conserved is with conservative forces, like gravity or a spring. when you have friction[/b] Which we don't[/b], which is a non conservative force, the mechanical energy is not conserved. some of the energy is lost to heat and some of it to sound, and even some of it to in some cases light (though this is not one of those cases). blah blah blah, the most important part of the conservation of energy is that it only the SAME SYSTEM. you can not say two different cars with two different circumstances and having the two systems have different amounts of energy, which means that energy isn't conserved. there is nothing to be conserved between two different systems. the law of the conservation of energy is only relevant when speaking of 1 system, the same system, AND if it is being acted on ONLY by conservative forces.
Sorry but I'm talking about conservation of energy with in a System. In fact I'm talking about it with in 2 systems. First I made a measurement of the energy the engine put out on level ground. Then I noted that they where equal. Then I put the cars on a treadmill and measured the energy at the end again. Now here is where I think you get confused when I say the two car's energy must be equal because of conservation of energy it is because the starting energy of the systems were equal and therefor the ending energy of the systems must be equal. I'm using conservation of energy with in each system and applying that result to make a compression between two systems. See and that is why in the number list above I only talked about one system.

We have resolved number 5 that you complained about now which other number is wrong or do you agree that the system as you defined it violates the conservation of energy law.
 

mwd410

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2004
15
0
0
Originally posted by: smack Down

Sorry but I'm talking about conservation of energy with in a System. In fact I'm talking about it with in 2 systems. First I made a measurement of the energy the engine put out on level ground. Then I noted that they where equal. Then I put the cars on a treadmill and measured the energy at the end again. Now here is where I think you get confused when I say the two car's energy must be equal because of conservation of energy it is because the starting energy of the systems were equal and therefor the ending energy of the systems must be equal. I'm using conservation of energy with in each system and applying that result to make a compression between two systems. See and that is why in the number list above I only talked about one system.

We have resolved number 5 that you complained about now which other number is wrong or do you agree that the system as you defined it violates the conservation of energy law.

this is the problem. EVERYTHING you've just said is completely invalid. that is NOT what conservation of energy is about. period. you are using a term because it sounds fancy, but you actually have no idea what it really means. there is no energy that is being conserved in these two systems. first of all, the only conserved force in either of these two systems is gravity, which is one of the REQUIREMENTS to talk about conservation of energy (to have only conserved forces), but there's also MANY other forces involved, such as friction, the force from the two different types of engines, etc., all of these are NON CONSERVATIVE FORCES. which means that conservation of energy can't even be talked about because in systems that have non conservative forces, energy is not conserved. also, we are adding different amounts of energy through different amounts of forces between the two systems.

your arguments, sir, are completely false, invalid, and have no bearing on any physics.
 

Cold Steel

Member
Dec 23, 2007
168
0
0
So, I've pretty much decided that smackdown is either a genius beyond measure and is so far ahead of every one here that he's the only one who truly understands what he's talking about. OR..........

He has no clue whatsoever.

smackdown, I asked you a few pages back what your education is. You never answered. I know mwd410 in real life. He's a physics major in college. I'll take his word, along with nearly everyone else who has posted in this thread, over yours. Now please answer my question. What is your education?
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: mwd410
Originally posted by: smack Down

Sorry but I'm talking about conservation of energy with in a System. In fact I'm talking about it with in 2 systems. First I made a measurement of the energy the engine put out on level ground. Then I noted that they where equal. Then I put the cars on a treadmill and measured the energy at the end again. Now here is where I think you get confused when I say the two car's energy must be equal because of conservation of energy it is because the starting energy of the systems were equal and therefor the ending energy of the systems must be equal. I'm using conservation of energy with in each system and applying that result to make a compression between two systems. See and that is why in the number list above I only talked about one system.

We have resolved number 5 that you complained about now which other number is wrong or do you agree that the system as you defined it violates the conservation of energy law.

this is the problem. EVERYTHING you've just said is completely invalid. that is NOT what conservation of energy is about. period. you are using a term because it sounds fancy, but you actually have no idea what it really means. there is no energy that is being conserved in these two systems. first of all, the only conserved force in either of these two systems is gravity, which is one of the REQUIREMENTS to talk about conservation of energy (to have only conserved forces), but there's also MANY other forces involved, such as friction, the force from the two different types of engines, etc., all of these are NON CONSERVATIVE FORCES. which means that conservation of energy can't even be talked about because in systems that have non conservative forces, energy is not conserved. also, we are adding different amounts of energy through different amounts of forces between the two systems.

your arguments, sir, are completely false, invalid, and have no bearing on any physics.

Sorry but conservation of energy applies to all non-nuclear systems. If you don't understand that come back when you have graduated college. And got your phd by proving all physics wrong.

We are only talking about one system now. Getting you to understand two systems at once is clear not going to happen. Just go threw the numbers of above and explain what is missing to make the rocket car on the treadmill have additional energy compared with the rocket car not being on the treadmill. If you don't want to call it conservation of energy fine I don't care. Just say where the additional energy came from to make the wheel spin at 2 m/s

Edit: and don't just name a force say if the resulting energy from that force is greater on the car on the treadmill, greater on the car on the road, or equal and why.

For example friction is greater on the car on the treadmill because the wheels spin faster and therefor increases the energy gap.
 

mwd410

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2004
15
0
0
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: mwd410
Originally posted by: smack Down

Sorry but I'm talking about conservation of energy with in a System. In fact I'm talking about it with in 2 systems. First I made a measurement of the energy the engine put out on level ground. Then I noted that they where equal. Then I put the cars on a treadmill and measured the energy at the end again. Now here is where I think you get confused when I say the two car's energy must be equal because of conservation of energy it is because the starting energy of the systems were equal and therefor the ending energy of the systems must be equal. I'm using conservation of energy with in each system and applying that result to make a compression between two systems. See and that is why in the number list above I only talked about one system.

We have resolved number 5 that you complained about now which other number is wrong or do you agree that the system as you defined it violates the conservation of energy law.

this is the problem. EVERYTHING you've just said is completely invalid. that is NOT what conservation of energy is about. period. you are using a term because it sounds fancy, but you actually have no idea what it really means. there is no energy that is being conserved in these two systems. first of all, the only conserved force in either of these two systems is gravity, which is one of the REQUIREMENTS to talk about conservation of energy (to have only conserved forces), but there's also MANY other forces involved, such as friction, the force from the two different types of engines, etc., all of these are NON CONSERVATIVE FORCES. which means that conservation of energy can't even be talked about because in systems that have non conservative forces, energy is not conserved. also, we are adding different amounts of energy through different amounts of forces between the two systems.

your arguments, sir, are completely false, invalid, and have no bearing on any physics.

Sorry but conservation of energy applies to all non-nuclear systems. If you don't understand that come back when you have graduated college. And got your phd by proving all physics wrong.

We are only talking about one system now. Getting you to understand two systems at once is clear not going to happen. Just go threw the numbers of above and explain what is missing to make the rocket car on the treadmill have additional energy compared with the rocket car not being on the treadmill. If you don't want to call it conservation of energy fine I don't care. Just say where the additional energy came from to make the wheel spin at 2 m/s

Edit: and don't just name a force say if the resulting energy from that force is greater on the car on the treadmill, greater on the car on the road, or equal and why.

For example friction is greater on the car on the treadmill because the wheels spin faster and therefor increases the energy gap.

ok, you're not wrong... it's just that you're not right. i need you to listen to me carefully, THERE IS NO ENERGY THAT IS CONSERVED IN EITHER OF THESE SYSTEMS. period. it is transferred into different types of of energy like heat and sound. there are clearly different amounts of energy in each system. i don't know how else to explain it to you.

you are completely clueless. it is extremely evident that you have absolutely no solid physics knowledge whatsoever. there will never be any convincing you ever, and frankly i'm done trying. you, sir are the one who needs to take some physics classes, and you, sir, are the one who needs to come back to me when you actually understand anything you are talking about.

if you'd really like, i might be able to get one of my physics professors to explain in greater detail how you are wrong, would that satisfy you? probably not because you'd probably just say he was wrong.
 

Cold Steel

Member
Dec 23, 2007
168
0
0
Originally posted by: smack Down

For example friction is greater on the car on the treadmill because the wheels spin faster

Yes. The wheels spin faster than the forward movement of the plane. THAT'S WHY THE PLANE WILL TAKE OFF!

 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
[ q]THERE IS NO ENERGY THAT IS CONSERVED IN EITHER OF THESE SYSTEMS.[/quote]

Sorry but that is just false. All energy is conserved that is why there is the law of conservation of energy.

In physics, the conservation of energy' states that the total amount of energy in any isolated system remains constant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

How many more source do I need to show that conservation of energy applies to all systems.

it is transferred into different types of of energy like heat and sound.

I agree if you want to deal with minor effects like heat and sound fine. Heat from the rocket is independent from wheel speed so it will be the same with the car on the road and the car on the treadmill. Sound is a function of wheel speed so it will be greater on the car on the treadmill because the wheels will be going at 2 m/s.

So lets total up your energies again:
the base system has 1m + 1i + 1friction + 1heat + 1sound
The rocket car has 1m + 2i + 2friction + 1heat + 2 sound.

The rocket car on the treadmill has more energy then the rocket car had off the treadmill. They both started with the same amount of rocket fuel so where did the rocket car on treadmill's additional energy come from.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Hey smack Down,

Is there any chance you could take a minute and explain to me what happens in the following thought problem? I'm a bit confused.

Thanks!

-A plane takes off from a normal runway and leaves its landing gear extended.
-The plane circles around to a secondary runway which is a giant conveyor belt moving backward (ie, 180 degrees opposite the plane's forward motion) at the same ground speed the plane has (if the plane is flying at 180 mph, the conveyor is moving at 180 mph in the opposite direction).
-The plane, without slowing down, flies low enough that its landing gear touches the conveyor belt, but does not attempt to land.
 

Cold Steel

Member
Dec 23, 2007
168
0
0
Originally posted by: smack Down

How many more source do I need to show that conservation of energy applies to all systems.

Originally posted by: smack Down


Sorry but conservation of energy applies to all non-nuclear systems.

Which is it? Is it ALL systems, or just all non nuke systems?

And I'm still waiting for your answer. What is your education?
 

Cold Steel

Member
Dec 23, 2007
168
0
0
Anyone else notice this? First, we had smackdown talking about power being confused with acceleration........

Originally posted by: smack Down


It doesn't take power for the car to drive at 1 m/s. Power implies an acceleration of the car . You are think of a car with its engine off now think of one with its engine on.

And in response, I posted this....

Originally posted by: Cold Steel
umm... no.

Acceleration is a change in velocity. Power is the amount of work being done over time. It takes power for a car to drive at 1m/s, but if the car is steady at 1m/s, there is no acceleration.

Then we had smackdown confusing work and potential energy.....

Originally posted by: smack Down

Work is the change in potential energy the potential energy of the car. There is no change when the car is driving at a constant speed on level ground.

To which I posted this....

Originally posted by: Cold Steel
Again, umm..... no. Potential energy is the energy stored by position. A drawn bow has potential energy. A car moving at 1m/s is not storing energy as a function of it's position.

And after that, no more discussion of power, acceleration, work or potential energy from the illustrious smackdown.

Now he wants to talk about censervation of energy, yet states that only non nuclear systems have conservation of energy followed by a statement that all systems have conservation of energy.

So, he goes from one physics law to another, only to be shown he is incorrect, clearly not understanding any of them.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
Originally posted by: Cold Steel
Originally posted by: smack Down

How many more source do I need to show that conservation of energy applies to all systems.

Originally posted by: smack Down


Sorry but conservation of energy applies to all non-nuclear systems.

Which is it? Is it ALL systems, or just all non nuke systems?

And I'm still waiting for your answer. What is your education?
Energy can equal mass anyway, so conservation still can be said to apply in nuclear systems. Just think of matter as tightly-bound energy. At least, that's how I view it - energy of such high density that we are able measure its warping effects on spacetime, namely, its gravitational attraction.



The 30th should be interesting, regardless of what the Mythbusters happen to say.
 

mwd410

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2004
15
0
0
and that's what E=mc^2 means

the amount of energy in matter is the amount of mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light. aka there is an astronomically enormous amount of energy in every atom.
 
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