N.J. Man Indicted in Laser Beam Case, charged as a Terrist under Patriot Act, faces 30 yrs 3-23-05

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: skyking

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
And if he was able to cause a crash, then would you consider him a terrorist.

Of what is your definition there-of.

It's called intent. What was his intent when using the laser beam ?

Intent or lack thereof does not absolve him from responsibility for his actions.

As a pilot I can attest to how disruptive a bright light is. When night flying, all the instrument lights are dimmed, and red-colored to maximize night vision. Your eyes are dilated way beyond normal, in an effort to maximize your ability to "see and avoid".
I've had a few flashlights accidentally go off in the cabin, reaching for a chart or something, and it really sucks. It could be disasterous at the wrong time. to think that some A-hole would intentionally do that, well they'd better not get caught by a pilot, if you know what I mean.
That said, charging this person under the patriot act is way out of line. There should be sufficient penalties under other sections of law to discourage this.

Of course it does not absovle him of his actions. Yet his intentions determines whether he should be charged as a run of the mill law breaker or as a terrorist who's rights may have a good chance of being thrown out the window before even going to court.

For example if you run someone over with your car by accident would you be considered to be a terrorist ? If you where speeding and run someone over should you be charged as a terrorist or are there already laws on the books to deal with this matter ? What were your motives if any ? Should everyone who does something boneheaded be thrown in a gulag and treated like a terrorist ?

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: skyking

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
And if he was able to cause a crash, then would you consider him a terrorist.

Of what is your definition there-of.

It's called intent. What was his intent when using the laser beam ?

Intent or lack thereof does not absolve him from responsibility for his actions.

As a pilot I can attest to how disruptive a bright light is. When night flying, all the instrument lights are dimmed, and red-colored to maximize night vision. Your eyes are dilated way beyond normal, in an effort to maximize your ability to "see and avoid".
I've had a few flashlights accidentally go off in the cabin, reaching for a chart or something, and it really sucks. It could be disasterous at the wrong time. to think that some A-hole would intentionally do that, well they'd better not get caught by a pilot, if you know what I mean.
That said, charging this person under the patriot act is way out of line. There should be sufficient penalties under other sections of law to discourage this.

I agree the Patriot Act charges are way out of line. But I have a question. Those parties you mentioned who set off the flashlights in your cabin, should they be charged with a crime for their actions?

The key wording there is "accidentally"
considering that it was either myself or my co-pilot, I would have to say no

 

[BBond]

Isn't an accident unintentional? Was this guy's intent to blind the pilot?

With all the government excuses Americans have been swallowing, for example; 9/11 or Iraq, it seems this individual is being held to a much higher standard than we hold our own "leaders" to. The very same leaders who are throwing the book at this guy expect the benefit of the doubt at every turn.

 

[skyking]

Hell yes the intention is often to blind the pilot. I liken it to kids tossing stuff off overpasses. You hear about it from time to time, and sometimes drivers are killed or injured. This intent to blind or distract the pilot has been confessed to by others who have been caught at it. The beams are very precise, so when you persistently aim at the cockpit windows, it is no accident.

 

[Tylanner]

LINKERS

[snip]
The charges stem from a Dec. 29 charter flight from Boca Raton, Fla., with six passengers aboard that was preparing to land at Teterboro Airport and flying at about 3,000 feet at the time of the incident, according to the indictment.

"During the approach, the pilot and co-pilot observed a green-colored laser beam strike and illuminate the aircraft's windshield on approximately three (3) occasions. The laser beam flashes illuminated the cockpit, causing both pilots a temporary loss of night vision. This loss of vision briefly prevented the pilots from observing the aircraft's flight instruments and other aircraft in the vicinity," the indictment said.

Two days later, on New Year's Eve, the pilot was taken by law officers in a helicopter above the area where the laser hit the cockpit, and the helicopter was struck with a similar beam from a home, and FBI agents went there, the indictment said.
[/snip]

The numerous incidents pretty much rules out any notion of an accident. I mean he is 38.

While stamping him a terrorist is a bit excessive, it sends a clear message to anyone thinking about attemping a simliar tactic. And it certainly brings about hella more news coverage.

Honestly, if that is how he gets his kicks, I don't mind not seeing him for a few years.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: skyking
Hell yes the intention is often to blind the pilot. I liken it to kids tossing stuff off overpasses. You hear about it from time to time, and sometimes drivers are killed or injured. This intent to blind or distract the pilot has been confessed to by others who have been caught at it. The beams are very precise, so when you persistently aim at the ccockpit windows, it is no accident.

Just as I've read here at P&N regarding Iraq and WMD -- intent is difficult to prove.

The guy could have been using the laser to point out a constellation to his daughter and the plane got in his way. Now they're trying to make him out to be as dangerous as bin Laden. :roll:

 

[Tylanner]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: skyking
Hell yes the intention is often to blind the pilot. I liken it to kids tossing stuff off overpasses. You hear about it from time to time, and sometimes drivers are killed or injured. This intent to blind or distract the pilot has been confessed to by others who have been caught at it. The beams are very precise, so when you persistently aim at the ccockpit windows, it is no accident.

Just as I've read here at P&N regarding Iraq and WMD -- intent is difficult to prove.

The guy could have been using the laser to point out a constellation to his daughter and the plane got in his way. Now they're trying to make him out to be as dangerous as bin Laden. :roll:

And he just happened to hit the plane AND the helicopter 1 month later?

Maybe he was pointing out planes and helos to his daughter, I don't know, but he should know better..

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: skyking
Hell yes the intention is often to blind the pilot. I liken it to kids tossing stuff off overpasses. You hear about it from time to time, and sometimes drivers are killed or injured. This intent to blind or distract the pilot has been confessed to by others who have been caught at it. The beams are very precise, so when you persistently aim at the ccockpit windows, it is no accident.

Just as I've read here at P&N regarding Iraq and WMD -- intent is difficult to prove.

The guy could have been using the laser to point out a constellation to his daughter and the plane got in his way. Now they're trying to make him out to be as dangerous as bin Laden. :roll:

It is pretty obvious that you know nothing about laser beam constellation pointing. I suggest that you enroll into a laser beamology for constellation viewing course.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: skyking
Hell yes the intention is often to blind the pilot. I liken it to kids tossing stuff off overpasses. You hear about it from time to time, and sometimes drivers are killed or injured. This intent to blind or distract the pilot has been confessed to by others who have been caught at it. The beams are very precise, so when you persistently aim at the ccockpit windows, it is no accident.

Just as I've read here at P&N regarding Iraq and WMD -- intent is difficult to prove.

The guy could have been using the laser to point out a constellation to his daughter and the plane got in his way. Now they're trying to make him out to be as dangerous as bin Laden. :roll:

Sad that this guy will be the first convicted under the Patriot Act while Bin Laden is still free, oh wait, that's right, we got the guy responsible for 9-11, just changed his name to Saddam.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: skyking

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: skyking

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
And if he was able to cause a crash, then would you consider him a terrorist.

Of what is your definition there-of.

It's called intent. What was his intent when using the laser beam ?

Intent or lack thereof does not absolve him from responsibility for his actions.

As a pilot I can attest to how disruptive a bright light is. When night flying, all the instrument lights are dimmed, and red-colored to maximize night vision. Your eyes are dilated way beyond normal, in an effort to maximize your ability to "see and avoid".
I've had a few flashlights accidentally go off in the cabin, reaching for a chart or something, and it really sucks. It could be disasterous at the wrong time. to think that some A-hole would intentionally do that, well they'd better not get caught by a pilot, if you know what I mean.
That said, charging this person under the patriot act is way out of line. There should be sufficient penalties under other sections of law to discourage this.

I agree the Patriot Act charges are way out of line. But I have a question. Those parties you mentioned who set off the flashlights in your cabin, should they be charged with a crime for their actions?

The key wording there is "accidentally"
considering that it was either myself or my co-pilot, I would have to say no

Good thing you didn't take the law into your own hands and nail him (or her) with the axe. You guys still have axes hanging on the wall inside the cockpit area?

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: skyking
Hell yes the intention is often to blind the pilot. I liken it to kids tossing stuff off overpasses. You hear about it from time to time, and sometimes drivers are killed or injured. This intent to blind or distract the pilot has been confessed to by others who have been caught at it. The beams are very precise, so when you persistently aim at the ccockpit windows, it is no accident.

Just as I've read here at P&N regarding Iraq and WMD -- intent is difficult to prove.

The guy could have been using the laser to point out a constellation to his daughter and the plane got in his way. Now they're trying to make him out to be as dangerous as bin Laden. :roll:

Don't roll your eyes at me. I disagree with abusing the patriot act, but wholeheartedly think the guy should get charged under some law or statute. Read the post and link above. They tracked him right to his home from a law enforcement helicopter he was stupid enough to target. Likely coincidence?

You'd really like him to be free and disrupt pilots flying you, your friends or family, or disrupt pilots flying several tons of fuel and aluminum over your head? What is your problem?

Oh, I know. You'll grasp at anything, defend the most dispicable behavior to somehow "get back" at the current regime. You are all the same, so one-dimensional if you were turned sideways you'd look like a piece of fishing line.

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: skyking

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: skyking

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
And if he was able to cause a crash, then would you consider him a terrorist.

Of what is your definition there-of.

It's called intent. What was his intent when using the laser beam ?

Intent or lack thereof does not absolve him from responsibility for his actions.

As a pilot I can attest to how disruptive a bright light is. When night flying, all the instrument lights are dimmed, and red-colored to maximize night vision. Your eyes are dilated way beyond normal, in an effort to maximize your ability to "see and avoid".
I've had a few flashlights accidentally go off in the cabin, reaching for a chart or something, and it really sucks. It could be disasterous at the wrong time. to think that some A-hole would intentionally do that, well they'd better not get caught by a pilot, if you know what I mean.
That said, charging this person under the patriot act is way out of line. There should be sufficient penalties under other sections of law to discourage this.

I agree the Patriot Act charges are way out of line. But I have a question. Those parties you mentioned who set off the flashlights in your cabin, should they be charged with a crime for their actions?

The key wording there is "accidentally"
considering that it was either myself or my co-pilot, I would have to say no

Good thing you didn't take the law into your own hands and nail him (or her) with the axe. You guys still have axes hanging on the wall inside the cockpit area?

I don't fly the heavy iron, mostly light twins like this charter in the article, and I used to fly arial advertising banners before the !#@$!#@$@#$^ Patriot ACT took away that job forever.

The flashlights are a mandatory and necessary evil in the cockpit, in case of total electrical failure. I usually carry three, a couple of red lensed ones for looking at charts and things, and a big one with a clear lens for when the Sh!t really hits the fan. I got partially blinded once or twice when I or my co-pilot accidentally bumped the switch reaching into the case or bag.
The typical light plane has several instruments that work fine in the event of an electrical failure, but it is hard to see them after the power goes out

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Tom
how do you stargaze with a lazor beam ?

Actually they make very powerful pen-sized lasers for this exact purpose. A friend of mine was able to buy one and demonstrated it on a very clear night sky. It was absolutely amazing how he was able to point to specific stars and the laser made a nice perfect green line right to what he was referring to.

And no, there weren't any planes anywhere in the vicinity.

all the way to the star ? how long were you guys out there ?

 

[Yo Ma Ma]

The NJ man may or may not be a scum bag, but

Banach, 38, faces up to 20 years in prison if convicted of interference with pilots of an aircraft "with reckless disregard for the safety of human life," a provision of the USA Patriot Act passed following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

it certainly DOES sound like the "Patriot Act" has been left a BIT open to interpretation.. that is dangerous.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Yo_Ma-Ma
The NJ man may or may not be a scum bag, but

Banach, 38, faces up to 20 years in prison if convicted of interference with pilots of an aircraft "with reckless disregard for the safety of human life," a provision of the USA Patriot Act passed following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

it certainly DOES sound like the "Patriot Act" has been left a BIT open to interpretation.. that is dangerous.

Don't forget the extra 5 years twice for lying to investigators.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Tom
how do you stargaze with a lazor beam ?

Actually they make very powerful pen-sized lasers for this exact purpose. A friend of mine was able to buy one and demonstrated it on a very clear night sky. It was absolutely amazing how he was able to point to specific stars and the laser made a nice perfect green line right to what he was referring to.

And no, there weren't any planes anywhere in the vicinity.

all the way to the star ? how long were you guys out there ?

Of course not all the way to the star while we were standing there! However, the laser made it APPEAR as if he was pointing directly at a particular star. It was really quite amazing, but you'd probably need to see it first-hand to appreciate how well it works. I could very easily see astronomy profs using such a device with his students on field trips and such...

 

[shira]

Intent really is crucial here, on more than one level.

It's completely plausible that he was "playing around" seeing what visible effect the laser had on aircraft. It may well have never occurred to him that the laser light could cause any serious visual impairment at that distance.

So, it's believable that he intended to shine the laser at aircraft, but not to hurt anyone.

Before this incident was reported, how many of us knew that shining a hand laser at an aircraft could be considered a serious felony? How many of us knew specifically that "interfering with aircraft operations" was defined as a terrorist act under the Patriot Act?

The point is, starting NOW, nobody has an excuse if they shine a laser at an aircraft. But I think this guy was just an ignorant dufus, playing with his new toy. And though he ought to be charged with something, this big-time charge is WAY out of line.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: shira
Intent really is crucial here, on more than one level.

It's completely plausible that he was "playing around" seeing what visible effect the laser had on aircraft. It may well have never occurred to him that the laser light could cause any serious visual impairment at that distance.

So, it's believable that he intended to shine the laser at aircraft, but not to hurt anyone.

Before this incident was reported, how many of us knew that shining a hand laser at an aircraft could be considered a serious felony? How many of us knew specifically that "interfering with aircraft operations" was defined as a terrorist act under the Patriot Act?

The point is, starting NOW, nobody has an excuse if they shine a laser at an aircraft. But I think this guy was just an ignorant dufus, playing with his new toy. And though he ought to be charged with something, this big-time charge is WAY out of line.

Precisely. :thumbsup:

 

[Starbuck1975]

Before this incident was reported, how many of us knew that shining a hand laser at an aircraft could be considered a serious felony? How many of us knew specifically that "interfering with aircraft operations" was defined as a terrorist act under the Patriot Act?

While it is doubtful that the man in question had no intentions beyond his own lack of judgment, it almost common knowledge that laser pointers should never be pointed at someone's eyes...most laser pointers, either on the pointer themselves or the box they come in, have such warning labels printed on them.

While there is no way this gentleman could have visibly seen the pilots, shooting a laser pointer at an airplane, or more specifically at the cockpit, is taking a risk in that it could conceivably catch the pilot in the eye or even serve as a distraction.

Similarly, given the current political climate, and the sensitivity of aircraft given their prominant role in 9/11, that shooting laser pointers at aircraft is probably not the smartest thing to do.

Does he deserve to be classified as a terrorist and charged with a federal crime...no...does he deserve to have the law knock some common sense into him...most definitely.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Has the Patriot Act even been used against a Terrorist yet? I keep hearing about drug paraphenalia sales and other non-Terrorist acts where the Patriot Act gets used, but nothing concerning a Terrorist.

i guess we know what the real purpose of the patriot act was. Welcome to the Police State!

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I don't know if he is a terrorist or not, but what kind of dumbass points a laser beam at an aircraft.

A man accused of pointing a green laser beam at a small passenger jet, temporarily blinding the pilot and co-pilot, was indicted Wednesday under the federal anti-terror Patriot Act.

In temporarily blinding the pilots, this man recklessly endangered the lives of everyone on that plane.

so naturally he should spend the rest of his nature life in jail.

A fine and probation is all this deserves.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
And if he was able to cause a crash, then would you consider him a terrorist.

Of what is your definition there-of.

If he unintentionally causes a plane to crash because of his own stupidity/negligence, then that obdviously is not terrorism.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: skyking

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: skyking
Hell yes the intention is often to blind the pilot. I liken it to kids tossing stuff off overpasses. You hear about it from time to time, and sometimes drivers are killed or injured. This intent to blind or distract the pilot has been confessed to by others who have been caught at it. The beams are very precise, so when you persistently aim at the ccockpit windows, it is no accident.

Just as I've read here at P&N regarding Iraq and WMD -- intent is difficult to prove.

The guy could have been using the laser to point out a constellation to his daughter and the plane got in his way. Now they're trying to make him out to be as dangerous as bin Laden. :roll:

Don't roll your eyes at me. I disagree with abusing the patriot act, but wholeheartedly think the guy should get charged under some law or statute. Read the post and link above. They tracked him right to his home from a law enforcement helicopter he was stupid enough to target. Likely coincidence?

You'd really like him to be free and disrupt pilots flying you, your friends or family, or disrupt pilots flying several tons of fuel and aluminum over your head? What is your problem?

Oh, I know. You'll grasp at anything, defend the most dispicable behavior to somehow "get back" at the current regime. You are all the same, so one-dimensional if you were turned sideways you'd look like a piece of fishing line.

I don't think that anyone here has disagreed with that yet. a 30year charge for terrorism is a very dangerous precedent, not to mention completely out of proportion. Rapists and murders often don't get that kind of time.

 

[Starbuck1975]

so naturally he should spend the rest of his nature life in jail. A fine and probation is all this deserves

Not in disagreement with you.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

so naturally he should spend the rest of his nature life in jail. A fine and probation is all this deserves

Not in disagreement with you.

Wait, there's no one hear who thinks he should be charged as a terrorist, right?

And there's no one who thinks he should be let go with a stern warning either...

P&N may have reached a consensus on something!