Nationalizing Healthcare

[Smaug]

There is a piece in the New Yorker by Malcolm Gladwell, that discusses how broken our healthcare system is, and how nationalizing it is in fact a much better choice. He also debunks my favorite myth, that healthcare is just like every other good or service.

THE MORAL-HAZARD MYTH : The bad idea behind our failed health-care system.

 

[Dissipate]

Soaring health costs are due to the AMA, backed up by the full force of the state, something your article completely fails to even mention.

To accomplish the twin goals of artificially elevated incomes and worship by patients, AMA formulated a two-pronged strategy for the labor market for physicians. First, use the coercive power of the state to limit the practices of physician competitors such as homeopaths, pharmacists, midwives, nurses, and later, chiropractors. [5] [6] Second, significantly restrict entrance to the profession by restricting the number of approved medical schools in operation and thus the number of students admitted to those approved schools yearly. [7]

100 years of medical robbery

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Soaring health costs are due to the AMA, backed up by the full force of the state, something your article completely fails to even mention.

To accomplish the twin goals of artificially elevated incomes and worship by patients, AMA formulated a two-pronged strategy for the labor market for physicians. First, use the coercive power of the state to limit the practices of physician competitors such as homeopaths, pharmacists, midwives, nurses, and later, chiropractors. [5] [6] Second, significantly restrict entrance to the profession by restricting the number of approved medical schools in operation and thus the number of students admitted to those approved schools yearly. [7]

100 years of medical robbery

That comprises one of the quadruple factors that have increased health costs. The first is federal documentation and privacy rules that tripled administrative costs and overhead, the second is non-existance malpractice limits that allow verdicts far exceeding actual damages and the third is unchecked insurance abuses that not only increase administrative costs but defraud everyone. Combine them all with illegal AMA restrictions on enrollment and institutional qualification that creates a doctor shortage and you have rapidly spiraling out of control costs.

 

[1EZduzit]

Somebody has to do something about medical costs and the sooner the better.

 

[alent1234]

nationalizing health insurance will do nothing but raise costs

the reason it's so expensive is that people think it's free and don't take costs into account when going to the doctor. a lot of people don't take care of themselves and then expect the insurance company to pay for the problems. nationalizing the system isn't going to make the costs go away, it'll just transfer them them to higher taxes.

 

[Zebo]

Good read. I don't subcribe to that "moral harard" idea one bit. From a personel standpoint it just does'nt make sense.. Everyone knows kids hate docs and it follows them though adulthood...I know...I have great insurance..no co pay, no month pay, any doctor, 3000 per fam member dental, 50/50 othro etc etc And rarley step foot inside Dr's office. Frankly I'm still scared of them plus I think they are mainly USELESS Quacks unless you got a bone sticking out of your leg or something. My last physical, about three years ago my doc said I was fat using her quackery BMI charts. I was your typical x-football player about 260 but only had ~ 13% BF and could still run 6 minute miles. I guarntee you I was faster sprinting wise and more long winded than her anorexic self. Today I'm still way over obese BMI charts @ 245 and I run 3-4 miles every morning. I drink this liquid vitamin formula like water and run so I don't have to ever go into doctors office again.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: alent1234
nationalizing health insurance will do nothing but raise costs

the reason it's so expensive is that people think it's free and don't take costs into account when going to the doctor. a lot of people don't take care of themselves and then expect the insurance company to pay for the problems. nationalizing the system isn't going to make the costs go away, it'll just transfer them them to higher taxes.

You mean they can go higher then the double digit inflation we've seen in health care for the last 30 years??

I doubt that.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Soaring health costs are due to the AMA, backed up by the full force of the state, something your article completely fails to even mention.

To accomplish the twin goals of artificially elevated incomes and worship by patients, AMA formulated a two-pronged strategy for the labor market for physicians. First, use the coercive power of the state to limit the practices of physician competitors such as homeopaths, pharmacists, midwives, nurses, and later, chiropractors. [5] [6] Second, significantly restrict entrance to the profession by restricting the number of approved medical schools in operation and thus the number of students admitted to those approved schools yearly. [7]

100 years of medical robbery

Best post in the thread

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: alent1234
nationalizing health insurance will do nothing but raise costs

the reason it's so expensive is that people think it's free and don't take costs into account when going to the doctor. a lot of people don't take care of themselves and then expect the insurance company to pay for the problems. nationalizing the system isn't going to make the costs go away, it'll just transfer them them to higher taxes.

Someone less lazy than me needs to post the link that shows that our big insurance and big pharma friendly health care system is far more expensive than nationalized plans in first world countries. There was a whole thread on this a couple weeks ago.

Personally, I look forward to higher taxes and no health insurance premium. I'd rather my money go into government waste and employ workers on pork projects than into some anti-American exec's salary.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Soaring health costs are due to the AMA, backed up by the full force of the state, something your article completely fails to even mention.

To accomplish the twin goals of artificially elevated incomes and worship by patients, AMA formulated a two-pronged strategy for the labor market for physicians. First, use the coercive power of the state to limit the practices of physician competitors such as homeopaths, pharmacists, midwives, nurses, and later, chiropractors. [5] [6] Second, significantly restrict entrance to the profession by restricting the number of approved medical schools in operation and thus the number of students admitted to those approved schools yearly. [7]

100 years of medical robbery

That comprises one of the quadruple factors that have increased health costs. The first is federal documentation and privacy rules that tripled administrative costs and overhead, the second is non-existance malpractice limits that allow verdicts far exceeding actual damages and the third is unchecked insurance abuses that not only increase administrative costs but defraud everyone. Combine them all with illegal AMA restrictions on enrollment and institutional qualification that creates a doctor shortage and you have rapidly spiraling out of control costs.

Malpractice is a Myth AFAIK. Every state I know of has malpractice caps. Usually in the 300-500K range, check your state, I'm sure you'll feel your loved one is worth more than the paltry amount listed. Not only that the highest estimates I've seen is 2-3% of HC costs are due to malpractice. Again a paltry sum IMO to insure liability for screw ups.

 

[Smaug]

Originally posted by: alent1234
nationalizing health insurance will do nothing but raise costs

the reason it's so expensive is that people think it's free and don't take costs into account when going to the doctor. a lot of people don't take care of themselves and then expect the insurance company to pay for the problems. nationalizing the system isn't going to make the costs go away, it'll just transfer them them to higher taxes.

You are missing the point entirely. The article points out that higher co-pays and various other factors decrease a persons health and well being(which is really what medical insurance is about) and can increase cost. The reason why insurance is cheaper in other countries is partially because if you aren't feeling well, you can see a doctor, and that costs the country maybe 40-50 dollars. If you wait it out you may end up in an Emergency room with a minimum cost of 2000 dollars.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Zebo


Malpractice is a Myth AFAIK. Every state I know of has malpractice caps. Usually in the 300-500K range, check your state, I'm sure you'll feel your loved one is worth more than the paltry amount listed. Not only that the highest estimates I've seen is 2-3% of HC costs are due to malpractice. Again a paltry sum IMO to insure liability for screw ups.

Most estimates I've seen are around 1.5% for malpractice suits.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: alent1234
nationalizing health insurance will do nothing but raise costs

the reason it's so expensive is that people think it's free and don't take costs into account when going to the doctor. a lot of people don't take care of themselves and then expect the insurance company to pay for the problems. nationalizing the system isn't going to make the costs go away, it'll just transfer them them to higher taxes.

So how is it someplace like Costa Rica which has less taxes, pay less per capita to insure people, and they insure everyone are able to do it? The math don't add. Half the cost per capita and everyone is covered. What is sucking us dry?

I've really been wanting to get to the bottom of this curundum since these HC debates started but have found nothing informative. Some people say we have better care for those who have it but those are annecdotal tales and orgs such as WHO say otherwise. Some people say Doctors are paid too much. Pfft MBA's make more with less loans and less demanding shedule and less demanding curriculum. That's not it either.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Good read. I don't subcribe to that "moral harard" idea one bit. From a personel standpoint it just does'nt make sense.. Everyone knows kids hate docs and it follows them though adulthood...I know...I have great insurance..no co pay, no month pay, any doctor, 3000 per fam member dental, 50/50 othro etc etc And rarley step foot inside Dr's office. Frankly I'm still scared of them plus I think they are mainly USELESS Quacks unless you got a bone sticking out of your leg or something. My last physical, about three years ago my doc said I was fat using her quackery BMI charts. I was your typical x-football player about 260 but only had ~ 13% BF and could still run 6 minute miles. I guarntee you I was faster sprinting wise and more long winded than her anorexic self. Today I'm still way over obese BMI charts @ 245 and I run 3-4 miles every morning. I drink this liquid vitamin formula like water and run so I don't have to ever go into doctors office again.

It's not supprising that you don't understand what BMI is and what it means, most people don't. I seriously doubt your doctor used the word "fat" she more than likely said you are overweight, and if your BMI was that high then you were and ARE overweight. This does not mean you aren't in shape and it doesn't mean your fat. It means quite simply what it says, which is you are overweight.

All that extra muscle you are carrying around puts more strain on your internal organs (and all the extra calories you burn supporting it) and in particular your heart and although you may think it's silly, it's true that all that extra work over the years will age your organs quicker than someone that weighs less than you. Being skin and bones means you will live longer, this has been proven over and over again in scientific studies. It's also been shown that even bodybuilders that don't abuse pharmacuticals that they have shorter life spans and more heart problems than the general population. Now BMI is not something that is an oracle of all health issues and it's not some overriding guideline, but it's something that you should take into account given your families history and your genetic disposition as far as frame size goes.

Originally posted by: Zebo
Malpractice is a Myth AFAIK. Every state I know of has malpractice caps. Usually in the 300-500K range, check your state, I'm sure you'll feel your loved one is worth more than the paltry amount listed. Not only that the highest estimates I've seen is 2-3% of HC costs are due to malpractice. Again a paltry sum IMO to insure liability for screw ups.

This is true if you average all the medical fields The problem is if you take a realistic approach and look at each field individually. Things like surgery and childbirth have costs that are almost entirely driven by malpractice insurance. Obestriticians in my state with no malpractice suits in 3 years pay on average $80,000 a month on malpractice insurance, and if they have had an accident that resulted in a suit the insurance rates triple. Any field where life expentancy is low or the surgery is typically fairly risky (childbirth is always risky) has ultra high malpractice insurance because any mistake by the doctor can often result in death or serious complications. You cannot dimiss the impact the high rates for insurance has on the cost of the procedure. And it's dishonest to average the general practitioners and podiatrists and all the doctors who have very little chance of complication into the calculation and say malpractice has nothing to do with it. You can't even talk to an anthestioligst for less than a $1000 and I bet 60% of that goes to insurance.

 

[Zebo]

And it's dishonest to average the general practitioners and podiatrists and all the doctors who have very little chance of complication into the calculation and say malpractice has nothing to do with it.

I did'nt say that. I said estimates I've read are 2-3% of america's health care costs. Nothin "dishonest" about that at all since we're talking about total costs of malprice here. Dishonest would be cherry picking specialites malpractice insurance rates and apply it to the whole and acting as if it's a signifigant cost to us over the aggegate which it's not. How many times you see a surgeon vs a dentist, a GP, Gatso etc etc, once or twice, never?

 

[Future Shock]

My brother is a doc in the UK, and for the life of me you have to like the way they have achieved a balance:

1) you need free healthcare? Good, you can get it. It won't be too bad, it WILL treat you well, and frankly many of the best doctors in Britain work for the NHS, so competency abounds. You WILL be limited to the time a doctor has to spend with you, it won't be as posh as some suburban US medical centers, but it will be OK...

2) If you want better care, then the private option is available too. Many employers offer private health insurance, which covers private hospitals and doctors, and proceedures that are either not covered by the NHS, or have a long waiting time.

This really does give the best of both worlds - no one lacks for basic medical care (which includes drug rehab, HIV/AIDS treatments, most chronic diseases, home healthcare when needed, etc.), but those that want to buy (or have their companies buy) more personalized care always can.

The trick is to strike the right balance - funding the NHS so that it is affordable in taxes, but still provides basic coverage. It can be fairly controversial - but at least it's a political debate in which no one denies the need for universal coverage for basic medical care...and the free market is left to provide value added services...

FS

 

[Zebo]

All that extra muscle you are carrying around puts more strain on your internal organs (and all the extra calories you burn supporting it) and in particular your heart and although you may think it's silly, it's true that all that extra work over the years will age your organs quicker than someone that weighs less than you. Being skin and bones means you will live longer, this has been proven over and over again in scientific studies. It's also been shown that even bodybuilders that don't abuse pharmacuticals that they have shorter life spans and more heart problems than the general population. Now BMI is not something that is an oracle of all health issues and it's not some overriding guideline, but it's something that you should take into account given your families history and your genetic disposition as far as frame size goes.

I'd like to see some links for that. My dad's 71 runs about 6.6, 225 was over 300 many times in his life and show zero signs of slowing. Looks about 50. (trying to find some pics) BB aint runners but anarobic sloths/

 

[Zebo]

I like how this article ultimaly blame UNION's (does everybody hate them)

 

[luigi1]

What everyone isnt looking at is we are currently paying for every ones health costs with out the benifit of proactive care. If a homeless person colapes on the street they go to the hospital at a much greater cost than if thay had went to a dr. six months ago. And your paying for it. When we all stop and see this its obvious that national proactive health care will save us all money. Every one in america gets health care at the point that they fall down in the street. If you see that you see the solution. And its just that easy.

 

[totalcommand]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: alent1234
nationalizing health insurance will do nothing but raise costs

the reason it's so expensive is that people think it's free and don't take costs into account when going to the doctor. a lot of people don't take care of themselves and then expect the insurance company to pay for the problems. nationalizing the system isn't going to make the costs go away, it'll just transfer them them to higher taxes.

So how is it someplace like Costa Rica which has less taxes, pay less per capita to insure people, and they insure everyone are able to do it? The math don't add. Half the cost per capita and everyone is covered. What is sucking us dry?

I've really been wanting to get to the bottom of this curundum since these HC debates started but have found nothing informative. Some people say we have better care for those who have it but those are annecdotal tales and orgs such as WHO say otherwise. Some people say Doctors are paid too much. Pfft MBA's make more with less loans and less demanding shedule and less demanding curriculum. That's not it either.

Because the quality of care is sh*t compared to here.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

First some definitions . . .

Healthcare: the provision of goods and services related to the maintenance of health/fitness (cheap, highly effective) and intervention in the natural history of existing disease

Health insurance: 3rd party or otherwise circuitous means of paying for healthcare

The fundamental problems in the system:
1) Emphasis on interventional care - healthcare plans pay out the nose for CABG (look it up) but until recently wouldn't even consider paying for diet/nutrition/exercise.

2) Essentially no emphasis on keeping people healthy.

3) Arguably should be #1, many patients/people appear to take minimal interest in the maintenance of good health and then have wholly unrealistic expectations about how to use healthcare and how much it costs.

4) Public (but moreso private) interests add a level of bureaucracy that extracts anywhere from 6% (Medicare) to 25% (private insurer) from the system.

5) Aging, sickly population with high per capita utilization. Even our kids are sicker . . . asthma rates in kids 0-4 years old has TRIPLED in the past two decades. Don't even get me started on frickin' childhood obesity.

6) Government meddling to pick winners and losers (extending drug patents, accelerated approval for marginally useful drugs, annual tinkering with Medicare that invariably makes the program worse).

7) Medical education (pre and postgrad) that hasn't kept pace with best evidence.

8) Medical malpractice . . . but not what you think. It's the insurance. The Bush economy made it difficult for insurers to make money on their investments. Unfortunately, for them . . . they rarely made money off MD premiums. Companies that couldn't jack up rates fast enough on their small, captive market stopped offering coverage. As the number of providers decreased, rates went through the roof.

9) Medical malpractice . . . yeah, what you think. Physicians often make mistakes. Most are inconsequential . . . some are quite important. On the otherhand, sometimes sh!t happens. Regardless of the scenario, there's rarely a dearth of blood sucking lawyers waiting in the wings to sue somebody . . . typically everybody. It may be less than two pennies on the dollar but that's some serious $$$$.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: totalcommand

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: alent1234
nationalizing health insurance will do nothing but raise costs

the reason it's so expensive is that people think it's free and don't take costs into account when going to the doctor. a lot of people don't take care of themselves and then expect the insurance company to pay for the problems. nationalizing the system isn't going to make the costs go away, it'll just transfer them them to higher taxes.

So how is it someplace like Costa Rica which has less taxes, pay less per capita to insure people, and they insure everyone are able to do it? The math don't add. Half the cost per capita and everyone is covered. What is sucking us dry?

I've really been wanting to get to the bottom of this curundum since these HC debates started but have found nothing informative. Some people say we have better care for those who have it but those are annecdotal tales and orgs such as WHO say otherwise. Some people say Doctors are paid too much. Pfft MBA's make more with less loans and less demanding shedule and less demanding curriculum. That's not it either.

Because the quality of care is sh*t compared to here.

Prove it. No annecdotals. And it better be 3x as good since I'm sacrificing 3x as much for it.

I'm all about price/performance consumer models.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: EatSpam
Personally, I look forward to higher taxes and no health insurance premium. I'd rather my money go into government waste and employ workers on pork projects than into some anti-American exec's salary.

What's so anti-American about an exec or his salary?

Socialism is quite the anti-freedom attitude. Perhaps the government can give me a ticker, I can click it every time I run a mile for a tax refund under communist Hillarycare.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: luigi1
What everyone isnt looking at is we are currently paying for every ones health costs with out the benifit of proactive care. If a homeless person colapes on the street they go to the hospital at a much greater cost than if thay had went to a dr. six months ago. And your paying for it. When we all stop and see this its obvious that national proactive health care will save us all money. Every one in america gets health care at the point that they fall down in the street. If you see that you see the solution. And its just that easy.

But America being the competitive society that it is can't see it that way. The majority of people think that when they can screw someone out of something then that means they come out better. That's the mindset they apply towards health insurance also, less for someone else means more for me.

 

[luigi1]

We are currently paying for everybodys health care in ER. If any of it could avoid ER we would all save money. Thats the reality. If anyone would like to dispute that please do. That being said could we save money by treating these conditions before they require an ER visit? If you think so then national health care puts dollars in your pocket and reduces the suffering in america. Whats the down side here. Well besides opening your eyes and seeing. OMG you might see the truth. Dont look. Dont look.