navi customed designed for sony took 2/3 of engineers away from vega[forbes-article]

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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,840
13,765
146
If AMD pulls off chiplets/IO Motherdie strategy with Navi, that will be a straight up price/performance coup vs. NV.

Better still if they can keep scaling the performance up to 2080ti and beyond.

But we've all been aboard the AMD hype train before...

The rumors about the PS5 would be a 7nm 8core CCX + the faster 7nm Navi 10 chiplet and a 14nm IO die.

Ryzen 3XXX series would consist of
  • Low end R3 - 7nm 6 core Chiplet (6/12 total) + 14nm IO Die + dummy die
  • Low end “G” series - 7nm 6 core (6/12total) Chiplet + 14nm IO Die + Navi with 15CUs
  • Mid R5 7nm 4 core Chiplet X2 (8/16 total)+ 14nm IO Die
  • Mid “G” series 7nm 8 core Chiplet (8/16 total)+ 14nm IO Die +Navi with 20CU
  • Mid High R7 7nm 6 core chiplet X2 (12/24 total)+ 14nm IO Die
  • High end R9 7nm 8 core Chiplet X2 (16/32total)+ 14nm IO Die

Depending on the SKU base clock speeds would run from 3.0-4.0Ghz while boost would run from 3.8-5.1Ghz!

By using the basic 8core 16 thread chiplets across Ryzen, Threadripper (4X chiplets) and Epyc (8X Chiplets) AMD uses millions of chiplets. Adding in the PS5 will likely add 10million + more chiplets per year. (PS4 has been averaging 11-12million cpus per year)

The benefit of that is better binning. Adding those PS5 chiplets will add 10,000s to 100,000s of chiplets to best clocking bins allowing AMD to effectively offer competitive clock speeds for the first time in forever.

These rumors are very interesting.
 

lifeblood

Senior member
Oct 17, 2001
999
88
91
While I find the leak by AdoredTV to be technically possible I just feel uncomfortable with it, primarily because of the naming scheme. Using NV’s naming scheme +1 just seems a little too lame. However, it wouldn’t be the first or the second time AMD’s done it with the most recent example being Ryzen mirroring Intel’s naming scheme.

Back on topic, while I have zero trust in Wccftech/Forbes the reallocating of resources away from Vega and towards Navi and Ryzen do make sense. I’ve heard it from multiple sources although they may all be referencing the same Wccftech article. Hard to say.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
I would be HIGHLY surprised if MS went with an nVidia/ARM solution because they have put a lot of resources into having games for XBox and Windows 10 be the same. Having to then switch to an entirely different architecture would screw that up. But I could see them going with an Intel solution.

But also not surprised that all the resources went to Navi. Many of us here already suspected as much and that Vega was a stop gap.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,058
7,478
136
I would be HIGHLY surprised if MS went with an nVidia/ARM solution because they have put a lot of resources into having games for XBox and Windows 10 be the same. Having to then switch to an entirely different architecture would screw that up. But I could see them going with an Intel solution.

But also not surprised that all the resources went to Navi. Many of us here already suspected as much and that Vega was a stop gap.


- While I believe MS will go with AMD for their next console, I would never put it past MS to just completely fumble then abandon a good idea.

Feels like they've been on the verge of "windows anywhere" for the last 5 years with multiple half baked aborted attempts (windows phone and windows RT immediately spring to mind).
 
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railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
But we've all been aboard the AMD hype train before...

No kidding, and I'm glad I got off with RX 580. There are a handful of posters still active here whom the moment they post AMD GPUs estimate/expectations I hurt my eyes they roll so far back.

I'm still waiting for the magic code/driver to make Vega amazing.

Don't get me started on RX 480 being 90% of GTX 1080 in DX12 games for $200.

RX 580 was rumored to be GTX 1080, and before RX 590 train tickets were printed, you already had people saying it will be faster than a GTX 1080.

I would love to have AMD back in healthy fighting shape so I have an option in my bracket, but I'll wait for actual reviews.
 

Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
257
126
Microsoft have also been devoting a good bit of attention to making windows 10 processor agnostic.

They'll have development tools etc that'll make it pretty much a total non issue either way cpu wise.

The gpu architecture is presumably due to change a lot whatever they do.
 

Despoiler

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2007
1,966
770
136
I would be HIGHLY surprised if MS went with an nVidia/ARM solution because they have put a lot of resources into having games for XBox and Windows 10 be the same. Having to then switch to an entirely different architecture would screw that up. But I could see them going with an Intel solution.

But also not surprised that all the resources went to Navi. Many of us here already suspected as much and that Vega was a stop gap.

There is no way that any consoles from MS or PS are going to take a giant step backwards and go to Nvidia/ARM. They would have done that already if it was capable of delievering the performance they need. The only way Nvida can make a play is if MS were to adopt their server products and turn the Xbox into a streaming game platform. AMD has the 7nm CPU and GPU goods and Nvidia doesn't. AMD also doesn't charge licensing for use in VM and Nvidia does. Nvidia isn't cost competitive on hardware and AMD would still have the CPU + GPU bid that is going to be the cheapest. If by some miracle Nvidia were to get that bid AMD would still have a partial win because AMD Epyc would certainly be the processor used.
 

Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
257
126
Why this obsessive focus on NV? If NV did a full custom solution it'd probably be better than what AMD can produce, but they'd have to be willing to do that and they're seemingly not. Nothing off the shelf as they're focusing tegra very strongly on compute for the moment.

The theoretically strongest in terms of technical competence would of course be Apple. They're not at all interested. Intel could theoretically put in a good bid if that internal GPU project works out well for them.

Samsung and Q'comm could both very definitely do something effective enough and might very plausibly bid. Mediatek would be a very cheap option but I dunno if they'd trust them. Samsung might actually represent a decent outside shot.
 

lifeblood

Senior member
Oct 17, 2001
999
88
91
I think people are being overly simplistic in thinking Apple can just magically produce their own GPU. They don't make their own, from the ground up, CPU. The A12 uses the ARM8.3 architecture. AMD, Nvidia, Imagine technologies, etc have all been at this game for a long time and have the patents to prove it. Intel tried to enter the graphics market before with the i740 but failed miserably (I should know, I got burnt with an i740). Apple has nothing and would need to buy or license something in order to get started. And then it would take a generation or two to really start to shine.
 

Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
257
126
Err, much more than nothing The GPU in the A12X is Apple designed (customised?), pretty powerful, and very energy efficient. They'd obviously need to work out the scaling up to console size but they've got the best people now and unlimited money.

Samsung's in house GPU is much less known and less mature, but they'd presumably be much more likely to actually do something like consoles than Apple.
 

lifeblood

Senior member
Oct 17, 2001
999
88
91
Err, much more than nothing The GPU in the A12X is Apple designed (customized?), pretty powerful, and very energy efficient. They'd obviously need to work out the scaling up to console size but they've got the best people now and unlimited money.
<Sigh> OK, totally forgot the A12 also includes a GPU. However, it will take lots of time and money to make it competitive with AMD/Nvidia, and I don't think Apple even wants to go there. I don't think Intel really wanted to go there but realized they had to lest they be left behind in the AI market.
 

ozzy702

Golden Member
Nov 1, 2011
1,151
530
136
<Sigh> OK, totally forgot the A12 also includes a GPU. However, it will take lots of time and money to make it competitive with AMD/Nvidia, and I don't think Apple even wants to go there. I don't think Intel really wanted to go there but realized they had to lest they be left behind in the AI market.

If Apple wanted to, they could produce an extremely competitive GPU. Great engineers and unlimited funds goes a long way. I agree, Apple doesn't want to go that direction so NVIDIA and AMD have no worries there, but if they wanted to I have no doubt that Apple would be a contender.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,787
4,771
136
No kidding, and I'm glad I got off with RX 580. There are a handful of posters still active here whom the moment they post AMD GPUs estimate/expectations I hurt my eyes they roll so far back.

I'm still waiting for the magic code/driver to make Vega amazing.

Don't get me started on RX 480 being 90% of GTX 1080 in DX12 games for $200.

RX 580 was rumored to be GTX 1080, and before RX 590 train tickets were printed, you already had people saying it will be faster than a GTX 1080.

I would love to have AMD back in healthy fighting shape so I have an option in my bracket, but I'll wait for actual reviews.
This is sensationalist writing.

Yes, there were some who claimed the GTX1080 bracket for RX480, but there were also many (most?) claiming otherwise, like myself, who stated the R9 290 level was the goal to allow a minimum VR experience as stated by AMD.

As we always see in modern reporting, you can always find someone to say what angle you're pushing and it seems you are practicing that same misleading technique. Do you really expect that finding some radicals mean their opinion is now the norm? Amazing.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,173
5,639
146
No kidding, and I'm glad I got off with RX 580. There are a handful of posters still active here whom the moment they post AMD GPUs estimate/expectations I hurt my eyes they roll so far back.

I'm still waiting for the magic code/driver to make Vega amazing.

Don't get me started on RX 480 being 90% of GTX 1080 in DX12 games for $200.

RX 580 was rumored to be GTX 1080, and before RX 590 train tickets were printed, you already had people saying it will be faster than a GTX 1080.

I would love to have AMD back in healthy fighting shape so I have an option in my bracket, but I'll wait for actual reviews.

Yep, because there aren't people doing the same thing on the Nvidia side. There were several posters claiming that Volta was going to bring a +50% per clock improvement over Pascal and at least one claimed it could be a full 100% doubling of per clock performance. That didn't happen (don't think even Turing brought that either, with it being more like 20-45%). Many of them were the same ones constantly bringing up that AMD fans promised AMD would do all these different performance improvements too.

Heck, we never even got any Volta gaming cards (I say that because some of those people now are saying that Titan cards are not gaming cards, they're pro cards, to explain why the 2080Ti that they claimed was now taking the place of the Titan cards as the top gaming cards and that there wasn't going to be a new Titan for this gen, and we see how that turned out). And then some people have been saying ray tracing is the best thing ever and RTX is revolutionary (while arguing with anyone pointing out how half-baked it is), tried to downplay that DLSS is just upscaling/cheating (while they've been very critical of consoles for checkerboarding and other "cheats").

My point being, both sides pull that crap and have been for years. Remember when Nvidia was going to port Asynchronous Compute back to Maxwell? I think they said that before Pascal even came out. Never happened. Are you still waiting for that?

I'm not sure why, AMD themselves have said they stopped development of it as it turned out to be too difficult to implement. That seems to have been a big part of the situation with Raja, he seemed to want to make AMD like Nvidia and support stuff in software before doing it in hardware or something (I think patents related to Navi indicate it has hardware support for something similar to the NGG fast path discard stuff they were trying to implement in the driver for Vega).

I don't remember many people saying that. Actually if I remember right it was the pro-Nvidia people saying the 480 was supposed to be a 1080 competitor when AMD had for like a year been saying Polaris was mainstream level card.

I don't remember that either, and again, I think you're projecting nonsense that Nvidia people claim AMD fanboys say. By the time the 580 was being discussed, Vega was like 2-3 months away. Either you're actively seeking out the most ridiculous idiots on the web, or you're buying into a lot of just made up nonsense in the back and forth or taking obvious speculation ("what if" type of stuff that isn't actually serious).

Wait, I just googled RX 580 to see when exactly it came out (I couldn't recall if it was out before or after Vega). Are you seeing articles titled "AMD's 1080p contender" and conflating that with the GTX1080?

Next up you'll claim AMD people are saying Navi is a Titan competitor, nevermind AMD has been very deliberate for like a year (if not longer) that Navi is a mainstream market chip like Polaris.

A lot of this stuff is just fun speculation and isn't serious expectation. And some people take that way too seriously and intentionally try to make things into bigger issue than they actually are/were. I've been especially critical of Nvidia because they were literally paying people to spread lies on here and that turned this forum into a total cesspit so often that its why we have this stupid lingering fanboy junk. Even console gamers have largely ditched that crap and that's often with idiot teenagers that know jack$#!^ about anything.

There is no way that any consoles from MS or PS are going to take a giant step backwards and go to Nvidia/ARM. They would have done that already if it was capable of delievering the performance they need. The only way Nvida can make a play is if MS were to adopt their server products and turn the Xbox into a streaming game platform. AMD has the 7nm CPU and GPU goods and Nvidia doesn't. AMD also doesn't charge licensing for use in VM and Nvidia does. Nvidia isn't cost competitive on hardware and AMD would still have the CPU + GPU bid that is going to be the cheapest. If by some miracle Nvidia were to get that bid AMD would still have a partial win because AMD Epyc would certainly be the processor used.

Yeah. Microsoft, Sony, and AMD have all but outright already said that they're working together on the next Xbox and PS5 respectively. I could see Microsoft having a development platform, possibly using Tegra chips as the basis for it for the time being, for future streaming hardware. But I don't think we're there yet, and Microsoft has said that the 2nd new Xbox console is going to be a hybrid design that starts their streaming ambitions. By hybrid, that means they're going to do some local rendering (which would probably explain that chip with the 20CUs that I saw people mention has been rumored) as streaming isn't quite ready for rollout for all games. Microsoft themselves said this so its not just speculation.

I don't doubt that Nvidia is pushing Tegra and trying to get console wins (that was why they made Shield stuff), they clearly did for Nintendo. But because Nvidia seems to have rubbed a lot of companies wrong, few people want to use their stuff in consumer electronics.

Heck wasn't their most recent consumer Tegra (the K2 or X2?) have like the previous gen ARM chips (was using A57 when the A72 cores were already announced?). Which a newer 10nm chip using A76 cores and Turing based GPU would probably be good, but I'm guessing Zen 2 paired with Navi will be better for the PS5/next Xbox). But I'm guessing whatever reason that is keeping people from using Nvidia's stuff will still be there (not sure if that's price, or some other issue, but sure seems like every company that partners with Nvidia feels like they got burned, Sony has been very explicit about how happy they've been working with AMD after Nvidia on the PS3, Microsoft ditched Nvidia after the first Xbox, Samsung ditched them after Tegra 3 in what the S3, their screwup with the X1 in the Switch has not pleased Nintendo).

Why this obsessive focus on NV? If NV did a full custom solution it'd probably be better than what AMD can produce, but they'd have to be willing to do that and they're seemingly not. Nothing off the shelf as they're focusing tegra very strongly on compute for the moment.

The theoretically strongest in terms of technical competence would of course be Apple. They're not at all interested. Intel could theoretically put in a good bid if that internal GPU project works out well for them.

Samsung and Q'comm could both very definitely do something effective enough and might very plausibly bid. Mediatek would be a very cheap option but I dunno if they'd trust them. Samsung might actually represent a decent outside shot.

How do you figure? Nvidia's custom CPUs have flopped hard (wasn't there even some issue where they were practically broken because the translation or whatever they were using to run ARM based code wasn't working right causing errors and performance to not be where it should have been). And AMD will be on 7nm first and has a CPU that should outperform even the high end ARM chips on the same process (outside of Apple's custom ones). Plus 7nm is expensive so I don't know they'll be able to sell mobile chips (especially if pricing was already a factor for why Nvidia's previous ARM SoCs weren't more popular) cheap enough to compete with more powerful AMD hardware (that AMD sells for relatively cheap). Nvidia would almost certainly prioritize their higher end stuff.

If Apple wanted to, they could produce an extremely competitive GPU. Great engineers and unlimited funds goes a long way. I agree, Apple doesn't want to go that direction so NVIDIA and AMD have no worries there, but if they wanted to I have no doubt that Apple would be a contender.

Absolutely. I think AMD and NVidia should be worried though. Because its just a matter of time til Apple switches entirely over to their own chips, at least I think. And while Apple isn't a huge market for AMD's GPUs, it still matters. Once ARM chips take over more, and I think Apple will lead the way on that, consumer market is very different, as they'd be competing with not just each other and possibly Intel, but ARM, Qualcomm, and a bunch of others. I think that's almost inevitable as consumer stuff moves to being mostly networked and I/O focused chips, where its most about efficiency. So Nvidia and AMD (and Intel) are likely already headed to where their stuff is going to be aimed almost entirely at the enterprise/cloud/server market.
 
Aug 11, 2008
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Cortex A76 and beyond... it's probably going to look very attractive for a console...
the barrier is not being x86, but...
my comment was about the GPU side, which is more important for consoles, you only have to look at PS4/XB1
Not sure that is a barrier. Seems to me it could actually be an advantage.Integrate the consoles with phones; play the game on your phone when on the go, and play on your console at improved graphics settings when you get home.
 
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beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
Not sure that is a barrier. Seems to me it could actually be an advantage.Integrate the consoles with phones; play the game on your phone when on the go, and play on your console at improved graphics settings when you get home.

The failure here is that these 2 system have complete different controls and you will never be able to even come close in a racing game using a phone compared to a controller. Phone games only work so far and the experience is usually poorer compared to a controller or mouse + keyboard.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,269
5,134
136
Not sure that is a barrier. Seems to me it could actually be an advantage.Integrate the consoles with phones; play the game on your phone when on the go, and play on your console at improved graphics settings when you get home.

Or better than a phone, a Switch-style device. A low-end device with ~Xbox One performance in a handheld running at 720/900p, a budget console running at 1080p, and a premium console running at 4K.
 

Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
257
126
How do you figure?

You're basically right about NV not being likely to be motivated. Tegra is doing fine - they've just pivoted it over to compute/controlling cars, robots etc. Xavier seems rather impressive in some ways but would be quite utterly unsuitable for a console.

As for CPU's, well it is already well established with these past generations that the CPU doesn't have to be super powerful.

Samsung is maybe the most plausible threat because they've got fabs, their own quite 'large' CPU core design - not as good as Apple's but it'd work fine for a console - and apparently their own pending GPU design. If that design is up to snuff - a big IF! - then they might very plausibly bid cheap for the consoles to try and fill fab space etc.

You could see Intel doing the same for similar sorts of reasons.

Of course AMD have seemingly been quite good partners for the console makers the past few years, so they might well get the new contracts as well.
 

lifeblood

Senior member
Oct 17, 2001
999
88
91
Of course AMD have seemingly been quite good partners for the console makers the past few years, so they might well get the new contracts as well.
AMD/Intel have the advantage in that they are the only ones with x86 CPU's. Porting games between PC and console is much easier for it. However, if Apple continues it's current trend and develops a CPU powerful enough for a desktop then that changes things. Then x86 isn't the only desktop game in town. Might provide for some interesting times.
 

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
136
Don't think porting games is that much of an issue - most of the games engines already run on arm. The cpu is not the complex bit for porting. However I think today only x86 and apple are fast and that basically means AMD (as the others will want a bigger markup). ARM are catching up however.

I think the biggest problem AMD has is the ray tracing and ai cores. The console that can use both for better visuals and possibly even better ai even will win the next console war. The current consoles already advertise themselves as 4k ultra hdr - the next gen ones need something new to sell and ray tracing + smart ai is it. i.e. the console with smart ai + ray tracing + arm cores will outsell the one that just has faster ryzen x86 cpu cores and rasterised graphics.

Sony have always loved this new tech in new consoles so they will insist on it, MS can't be left behind so they will have to have it too. That means AMD need to rush this tech into their gpu's to make the sales, or they open themselves up to an Nvidia steal which would be a disaster.
 
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Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,522
751
126
No kidding, and I'm glad I got off with RX 580. There are a handful of posters still active here whom the moment they post AMD GPUs estimate/expectations I hurt my eyes they roll so far back.

I'm still waiting for the magic code/driver to make Vega amazing.

Don't get me started on RX 480 being 90% of GTX 1080 in DX12 games for $200.

RX 580 was rumored to be GTX 1080, and before RX 590 train tickets were printed, you already had people saying it will be faster than a GTX 1080.

I would love to have AMD back in healthy fighting shape so I have an option in my bracket, but I'll wait for actual reviews.

Vega isnt so bad at current prices, but it sure sucked a fat one at launch till now prices.
 
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