navi customed designed for sony took 2/3 of engineers away from vega[forbes-article]

plopke

Senior member
Jan 26, 2010
238
74
101
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasone...mds-graphics-identity-problem/2/#46206af642d7

intresting read with most drastic quote

While I can't corroborate that particular rumor, it too makes sense once you zoom out and view the entire picture. My sources tell me that not only was Navi expressly designed for Sony, but a staggering 2/3 of the engineering team under RTG's Raja Koduri was dedicated to it against his wishes, as he wanted to focus on gamers. The unspoken implication being that AMD CEO Dr. Lisa Su, coming from a semi-custom background at Freescale Semiconductor, made and enforced that decision.

A bit of sad read also , if true there was/is so much focus on custom designs that the GPU for PC department was left with almost nothing.

PS/update I guess might be some very good news for zen/navi integrated in PS5 xD

PSS could end up that navi just like polaris never will be designed to compete against high end gpu from nvidia , not that i personally care about that because i always buy mid range and polaris was great for that it would just suck if AMD is out again for a other round of high-end graphics cards.
 
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Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
257
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Absolutely unsurprising, and exceedingly sane of them to target things this way. The console deals were, for a while, near enough the only thing keeping the company afloat.

Honestly, their consumer GPU release schedule has been awfully wonky since ~Tonga.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
So if Sony gets Navi, then what does Microsoft get? Are they even going to go with AMD? Man if they go with nVidia and use a top Volta chip that will be extremely interesting.
 

SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,058
410
126
with Intel making dGPUs, Nvidia years ahead of anyone and showing they can get it done for consoles (even if not really, it had nothing custom, but they made a good offer) with the Switch, I wonder for how long AMD will be a viable partner for Sony/MS, if they are so unfocused on having a competitive architecture with Nvidia.
 

richaron

Golden Member
Mar 27, 2012
1,357
329
136
with Intel making dGPUs, Nvidia years ahead of anyone and showing they can get it done for consoles (even if not really, it had nothing custom, but they made a good offer) with the Switch, I wonder for how long AMD will be a viable partner for Sony/MS, if they are so unfocused on having a competitive architecture with Nvidia.
Errrr... Actually nVidia are years behind AMD with CPU/GPU integration and cohesive memory systems.

nVidia does have the fastest desktop GPU, but what makes you think that's relevant for a console SoC?
 
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SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,058
410
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Errrr... Actually nVidia are years behind AMD with CPU/GPU integration and cohesive memory systems.

nVidia does have the fastest desktop GPU, but what makes you think that's relevant for a console SoC?


Cortex A76 and beyond... it's probably going to look very attractive for a console...
the barrier is not being x86, but...
my comment was about the GPU side, which is more important for consoles, you only have to look at PS4/XB1
 

Mockingbird

Senior member
Feb 12, 2017
733
741
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This is literally an example of FAKE NEWS!

WCCFTech said this garbage then the media regurgitate this same garbage as if it is fact.
 
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sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
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Errrr... Actually nVidia are years behind AMD with CPU/GPU integration and cohesive memory systems.

nVidia does have the fastest desktop GPU, but what makes you think that's relevant for a console SoC?

Xavier is superior to everything else.
 

Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
257
126
Comically ill suited as a gaming console cool though That's an self driving car project.

They'd have to design something new for a console next time and that would mean real money so not that likely.
 

zlatan

Senior member
Mar 15, 2011
580
291
136
This is not how it works. I worked for Sony earlier, so I had some insight. The AMD semi-custom division is very independent in an R&D standpoint. They create custom designs with independent engineers and software team. The main source is the RTG and the CPU division. They got the architectures designed for PC workloads, and then Sony, Microsoft and the other guys will specify their needs. This means they will licenc IPs for AMD or/and ask them to licenc 3rd party IPs. In the and the semi-custom division have a lot of IPs from different companies, and then they will design a chip. It's like building something from lego for your friend, and he or she allow you to use his or her bricks. This is the main reason why all the consoles are based on 2nd generation GCN with some custom IPs and some changes. AMD give the GPU, the CPU, the uncore design, and some other IPs for the upgraded consoles, while Sony and Microsoft tell the semi-custom division how to change that for their needs. And of course they provide some engineers, because they defend their IPs, so there will be no engineers at AMD who knows how it fully works. Even that AMD has the licenc, they have to implement their own physical solution to it, with their own software implementation, and they are not able copy it from Sony or Microsoft. This is why security is the number one priority for semi-custom, because AMD have to convince Sony, Microsoft and the others, that their physical implementations for their IPs are in good hands and the RTG guys won't look into it, and even none of their engineers have the complete picture. The only advantage for AMD is knowing their partners ideas.

I personally think semi-custom is a hard division for them. When I first heard about it, I said this is redacted, it won't work, knowing how paranoid are these IT companies, when they try to defend their technologies. But somehow AMD gain their trust, and Sony and Microsoft ordered 3-3 designs from them. I still don't know how they manage it, but yeah it worked. And the interesting thing is, that Sony and Microsoft are pleased with the results. Mostly Microsoft, because you probably don't know that the original plan for the Xbox One is to release the console in 2014. But AMD provide them the SoC earlier, for a head-to-head start with the PS4.

For the next-gen, well AMD has the upper hands. Microsoft and Sony are trust them. I have heard that Intel want to get in to the business, but it's too late for them. Imagination always want to sell their IPs, but it is not scalable enough, while TBDR would be an interesting solution for this market, AMDs DSBR is not much different. For Nvidia, I think they had a chance before the Switch, but Nintendo is not too happy with the Tegra. The hardware is very buggy and vulnerable. The Switch is now fully crackable, because of a Tegra design flaw, and they need a hardware revision to solve it. This is a nightmare for Nintendo, now they have to build anti-cheat systems for their games to kick all the cheaters, who run modified code on their cracked Switch.

No profanity in the tech areas.

AT Mod Usandthem
 
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Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
5,593
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Thanks, zlatan for the insight, industry experience is always appreciated.

As was already mentioned, this Forbes article is just a wccftech article that the Forbe's author repackaged by citing the ever dubious "sources".
 
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Guru

Senior member
May 5, 2017
830
361
106
Complete garbage. Navi is the NEXT GEN, PS4 pro has a semi Vega architecture, not even full Vega, its a mix of polaris and vega.

Even MS XOX only has a Vega graphic card. In fact even from AMD's 7nm showcasings and reports they are still not working with Navi, but rather Vega. I doubt we'll see Navi before Q2 2019.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
From the rumors I have heard thus far, Navi is still GCN based and will not be very different from Vega. So I don't think it will be anything revolutionary or special. I'm sure the 7nm node will do good things for the chip but it's still not going to be great, IMO. That's not what matters anyways though. Sony and MS want these chips to be *cheap* and that's what AMD does for them.
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
136
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasone...mds-graphics-identity-problem/2/#46206af642d7

intresting read with most drastic quote



A bit of sad read also , if true there was/is so much focus on custom designs that the GPU for PC department was left with almost nothing.

PS/update I guess might be some very good news for zen/navi integrated in PS5 xD

PSS could end up that navi just like polaris never will be designed to compete against high end gpu from nvidia , not that i personally care about that because i always buy mid range and polaris was great for that it would just suck if AMD is out again for a other round of high-end graphics cards.

Total nonsense. Forbes is a click-bait factory posting rumors...

AMD is not going to design some kind of unique GPU IP just for Sony.

AMD is going to design core CPU GPU tech for diverse markets, and will let Sony choose how many GPU/CPU cores and the memory interface. That is how semi-custom works.
 

EXCellR8

Diamond Member
Sep 1, 2010
3,982
839
136
Can't even read it due to the site pleading me to disable my ad blocker.

Nope.

Regardless, AMD will certainly collaborate w Sony on design prototypes but a fully custom 1-off GPU design for a console always raises suspicion of info accuracy.
 

Mockingbird

Senior member
Feb 12, 2017
733
741
106
Total nonsense. Forbes is a click-bait factory posting rumors...

AMD is not going to design some kind of unique GPU IP just for Sony.

AMD is going to design core CPU GPU tech for diverse markets, and will let Sony choose how many GPU/CPU cores and the memory interface. That is how semi-custom works.

It's worse than that.

This rumor started on WCCFTech and this guy plagiarized it.
 
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Thala

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2014
1,355
653
136
Cortex A76 and beyond... it's probably going to look very attractive for a console...
the barrier is not being x86, but...
my comment was about the GPU side, which is more important for consoles, you only have to look at PS4/XB1

Indeed, 16 x Cortex A76 @3+GHz would be <15W TDP. Then you can dedicate the remaining power and area budget to GPU ---- YAY!
About the barrier, i think the biggest issue would to be not downward compatible. However with this huge performance uplift at CPU level, you should be able to just emulate previous generation.
 
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May 11, 2008
20,018
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I do not find it surprsing at all. Anybody who worked for a company knows that that company has to make money in order to survive. And you do not need a university degree to understand that money from a stable and reliable income source is more important than money coming in from an unstable source. Meaning, semicustom wins vs the pc gamer market.
If the mining craze did not happen, the pc market is not enough to survive on.
Nvidia (Also a GPU manufacturer) for example went for datacenters and machinelearning for a reason. Money. If Nvidia had to rely on the pc gamer market, they would never have had the resources they have now. Intel, same story.

From the article.
That's a lot to unpack and it only raises further questions. The evidence paints a picture of AMD designing graphics products and architectures with its semi-customs clients first, and later adapting them for the PC gaming market. A practice that's been in play for the last several years at least.

AMD has multi-generational semi-custom product wins with Apple, Sony and Microsoft and those are worthy of celebration and continued resource allocation. There's nothing inherently wrong with this approach other than the obfuscation AMD seems to hide behind.

AMD is eager to steer its marketing around concepts like Radeon being the #1 gaming platform -- once consoles are taken into account. That's the only way it can win against Nvidia, aside from its excellent and widely-adopted FreeSync brand. It is eager to promote architectures like Polaris and Navi as being rooted in gaming.

And they are, just not PC gaming.

The bolded part i find utter redacted
All games i played so far are perfectly playable the RX480 card i have is total bliss for me.
If the writer of the article would have written that they mean a refresh rate of higher than 144Hz refrsh rates HD or 2k or 4K. Well, then it would still be bullshit because for the most demanding games, one really needs the fastest and most expensive Nvidia card and sometimes even in SLI.
Apples vs pears perspective.

AMD provides good cards , but Nvidia has the fastest cards. Of course the cards are priced accordingly.
It is really what is important to the individual gamer. What do you need for a good gaming experience in your view.
But saying AMD cards are not fit for pc gaming has a decaying manure smell to it.

No profanity in the tech areas.

AT Mod Usandthem
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,053
7,474
136
This is unsurprising. I think this actually started with Polaris and Vega, which is why (Vega especially) have a lot of awesome features that are not part of the DX feature levels and can only be accessed through specific coding through an alternative renderer like Vulcan.

Sony (and to a lesser extent MS) come to AMD with requirements that their own internal engineers want out of a GPU and AMD builds it for them (while keeping the IP for whatever they come up with). AMD being a small Scrappy company doesn't just throw these IP improvements out or put them on a shelf, they port them over to their discreet card side so they can market the heck out of them. Every once in a while, AMD lands a partnership deal that leverages these features and suddenly you see Vega running just shy of (occasionally faster than) a 1080TI.

I don't expect Navi is going to be any different (albeit better at hiding some of Vega's features behind the driver).

Lisa Su is in the business of making money and that means leveraging relationships like the MS/Sony one to pay for the R&D that you cannot afford internally on the graphics card front. Unfortunately the trade-off is losing some control over where your R&D is allocated, but it looks like AMD is willing to make that compromise at the moment.
 
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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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So there have been some rumors going around (AdoredTV) that Navi will form the basis of a chiplet that will be used by Sony, and as the basis for the GPU in the G series of Ryzen (Zen2) 3000 APUs and as the basis for three lower end GPUS:
  • 3060 Navi12 equal to RX580 /1060/2050 75W (no power connector) $129
  • 3070 Navi12 = RX56/1070/2060 120W $199
  • 3080 Navi10 = RX64+15% / 1080+ / 2070 150W $249

That’s a pretty solid low end to medium range across power price and performance. If true of course.
 
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n0x1ous

Platinum Member
Sep 9, 2010
2,572
248
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I agree that is pretty solid, though I don't like them playing off nvidia model numbers +1 like just like they did with the Ryzen chipset names. Just unnecessary confusion.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,053
7,474
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If AMD pulls off chiplets/IO Motherdie strategy with Navi, that will be a straight up price/performance coup vs. NV.

Better still if they can keep scaling the performance up to 2080ti and beyond.

But we've all been aboard the AMD hype train before...
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,173
5,637
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I thought I recall one of the higher ups in AMD explicitly saying that this first iteration of Navi will not be chiplet/multi-GPU?

I could see consoles going that route though, to the point I'd wager on it. It'd be cheaper than fabbing a custom monolithic APU die separately, lets them make iterative improvements as they wish (plus stuff like the Pro where they can add modules), and any of the custom stuff (forget what all, I think it was audio stuff, video processing blocks, and a few other things) could be done on its own chip and assembled as just another module.

It helps AMD and developers, as well as it would unify PC and console development more. PC will still have an edge (higher core counts, probably more CUs enabled, and higher clocks), so it really shouldn't change things much in that regard.

I've actually wondered if AMD wouldn't make gaming cards basically entirely separate complete systems just all in a card (or like those eGPU boxes). With an "optimum" CPU module (which is to say, whatever the typical baseline core count for gaming), with GPU, some HBM, maybe some other memory, and then onboard flash (enough to load a complete game into, where you could store games elsewhere, but when you go to play a game it loads the entire thing into the onboard flash to minimize load and access times). It'd be about minimizing latency. The main system would run it like a VM setup (and it could run a gaming focused OS). They could make some adjustment to tailor it a bit for games. I think that'd be a good idea for VR systems (where latency is especially important).

They actually did something like that with a console before, I think it was the Sega Saturn.
https://www.pcmag.com/feature/352654/the-strange-world-of-console-computer-hybrids

Which something like that might make sense for servers/pro/enterprise markets too, where they just stuff the racks with as many of those complete systems. For game streaming it would minimize latency as much as possible in the rack to help compensate for the added latency from streaming.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,794
11,143
136
So there have been some rumors going around (AdoredTV) that Navi will form the basis of a chiplet that will be used by Sony, and as the basis for the GPU in the G series of Ryzen (Zen2) 3000 APUs and as the basis for three lower end GPUS:
  • 3060 Navi12 equal to RX580 /1060/2050 75W (no power connector) $129
  • 3070 Navi12 = RX56/1070/2060 120W $199
  • 3080 Navi10 = RX64+15% / 1080+ / 2070 150W $249

That’s a pretty solid low end to medium range across power price and performance. If true of course.

AdoredTV is also pimping a leaked CPU/APU list for Zen2 which features a "G" designated chip with 20CUs. I am thinking it is less an APU and more a Kabylake-G type chip with some on-package HBM2. A true APU has the CPU and GPU on the same die (for minimum latency and "true" SVM capability without protocol extensions such as HT/IF over PCIe or whatever). Something like Kaby-G is not really an APU in the sense that AMD has used the term since Kaveri.

In any case, if AMD is able to make dGPUs out of scalable collections of GPU + HBM stack chiplets connected by IF then that could be very interesting.
 
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