NEC FP2141SB-BK VS Mitsubishi DP2070SB-BK

[Asphix20]

Hey guys. Big surpise.. i selected 5 day shipping but it only took one day to get here.. Guess the people I bought it from have a warehouse in New Jersey. The monitor looks great! Color is awesome.. and geometry is acceptable. Theres a slight bow in the top, and there isnt an adjustment to bow out the top/bottom.. In my opinion I'd be being overly picky about it though since its a really small curve and I dont notice it much.


However, I sat here for about 2 hours wondering WHY THE HECK IS MY TEXT SO BLURRY. I messed with the convergence like 10 times. Did the whole adjusting the focus using the 2 holes on the side. Compared to my sony GDM F500R which i'm now using wiht my Mits DP2070SB in a dual setup.. the text was horrible. Then I remembered the whole refresh rate thing.. and at 60-70 htz its fine.. above that and it gets god awful!!!!!!! Even at the 60-70 htz its not as good as the sony.. but that might be becaues my sony is .22mm aperature grille while the Mits. is .24

Anyway, what I was wondering is if any of you have heard anything official from NEC concerning this?? This is extremely weird how my sony F500R which has a manufacture date of 1999 can easily out-perform this brand new monitor???? It just doesnt seem right.. and it kind of angers me that I spent a lot of money on a monitor that looks like crap whenever I set it to a refresh rate that wont have my eyes rolling in the back of my head after a couple hours!!

Other than the blurry text though, I'd have to say its an excellent monitor. I love the casing design. It has a really small footprint. The controls to the OSD are a little annoying (I'm used to a joystick that controls the whole thing with the stick and a button.. which is the stick too.) The colors are excellent. I've done the whole spot check and i dont have any dead pixels at all.

Anyway, if any of you guys know anything about the refresh rate issue please let me know. If not I'm going to e-mail or call Nec/mits and see if they are aware of the issue and are planning on doing anything about it.

Thanks!!
Asphix

 

[ott]

 

[ott]

I noticed this site before I purchased the monitor

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,114190,00.asp

But I never thought it would be as bad as it seems; although I'm getting used to it at 70Hz and it seems workable at this resolution. But I did expect more for atop notch monitor like this!

Sounds like a design problem, although the article outlines that graphic optimisation causes text fuzziness.

I have no comparison monitor however.


ott

 

[Asphix20]

Thanks for the article! I agree with you though. I expected more :-D. At a refresh of 85 the text on this monitor looks worse than on my really REALLY old 15 inch view sonic from the early 90's. Oh well.. I'll send an e-mail to nec/mits anyway and i guess just get used to the low refresh rates.

 

[Electricview]

Well i dont know about the 370mhz bandwidth or whatever effecting the text, but i do know for a matter of FACT that the text does in fact look a bit blurryer at 85hz.. Th i'm gettnig pertty used to it, and ya know what, its not BLURRY by any means, its just not razor sharp.. Its definately better than the old viewsonic was.. and its better than the 17 inch sony i have at work, I am allways seeing black or white on black text and thinking to myself "that looks pertty darn good!" although it definately seems to be MOSTLY crisp in the middle of the screen and a tiny bit more blurry around the edges..

I called dell.. They are taking back the latest one they sent me and are gonig to try with ONE MORE.. If it has the dots still, then i guess i'm just gonna stick with #3 here.. i figure i'll just get over it somehow and look foward to the day i can get a 2ns LCD if it ever comes the truth be told this is one of the best looking monitors i've seen in a while once you get it adjusted correctly to your liking (contrast no the monitor itself is kind of weak, you need a good card with adjustable contrast).

I also wish mits/nec cared a bit more about their customers since this monitor is aimed at the grahpics profressional.. (ie they should have replied to my email at least addressing the issue.. I dont expect them to personally inspect a monitor, but they could try to give me one of their best specimens they have to keep a smile on my face and a buck in their pocket.)

 

[BJR]

Take this as the word of GOD, because I've been through ALL issues of screen geometry and fuzzy text.

99% of graphics cards out there use 2nd or 3rd order video output filters which result in fuzzy text at higher resolutions. I've tried ATI, Nvidia, and even a high-end 3Dlabs VP880 Pro. The market out there is games and 3D modelling - not 2D text. Even the Matrox G550 has only a 3rd order output filter. Only the Matrox Parhelia uses a 5th order output filter. With Nvidia, you are at the mercy of the board manufacturer. ATI and Saphire seem to have the same quality standards. The only card left for me to try is the Matrox Parhelia, and I'm not in a hurry to pay upwards of $700 for sharper text at 85Hz refresh rate (I'll just buy an 18" 16ms LCD for $800 instead)

I don't like 21" monitors like the 2070SB because the brightness/contrast is not even close to what any 19" monitor can do. Even my 2 year old Viewsonic VG151 LCD beat the 2070SB for brightness/contrast (in NORMAL mode, not SuperBright mode). And my 2070SB had the same minor geometry issues as my 930SB does now, only on a LARGER scale. Everything is AMPLIFIED, it seems because of the larger CRT tube. 21" is not worth it, in my opinion.

In order to drive a 21" monitor, you REALLY need a GOOD graphics card. The text will be fuzzier than on a 19" monitor, no matter what.

Someone was right in saying that Mitsubishi screens seem to have what look like "spit" marks on them. I went through two 930SB's because of this issue. I don't want to clean a brand new screen. Since I had two 19" 930SB's side by side at one point, I decided to clean the screen of the monitor I didn't want (i returned it).... cleaning these screens is a BITCH to say the least... and guess what? When I cleaned, I left the SAME "spit" marks behind. So this tells me that the "spit" marks you guys are seeing on the Mitsu's are actually the remnants of someone's poor cleaning job, or the remnants of a poor anti-glare coat application. When I rub the screen with soft cotton and distilled water, it leaves a "smudge" that will NEVER look like the rest of screen again. Therefore I spent 1 hour (yes 1 FULL hour) rubbing the ENTIRE screen to get a consistent "look". I don't know what is this coating that they apply, but once you start to rub the screen, it seems to dull the coating.... it's annoying to say the least.... it's the screen coating from HELL.

Also, Mitsubishi's quality control must get their eyes checked because the 2nd 19" 930SB that I received had the bottom right corner of the screen edging UPWARDS about 1/16". And this was NOT fixable with the geometry controls. This monitor was manufactured in February 2004. I'm at a loss here. Oh well.

So after about a month I started looking at other monitors in stores and some friends and it was then that I realized I should really just keep quiet and stop looking for perfection in geometry because it really doesn't exist. All monitors to which I compared my 930SB had worse geometry. Like I said before, I was spoiled by the perfect geometry of my Viewsonic VG151 LCD.

Time to get back to real work and stop worrying about these little things.

Incidentally I returned the 3DLabs VP880 Pro because it's text output was no better than my Asus V8420 Ti4200 card. No difference. I just ended up with more problems. I'm quite happy using my Nvidia now, now that I've seen what else is out there. 3Dlabs has issues with dual monitor support (LCD + CRT), because it will ALWAYS recognize LCD as monitor #1 - you can't change it. Nvidia doesn't have this issue. That's why I realized that Nvidia is the KING of drivers and dual monitor support (I don't know about Matrox, though). I can switch displays, change the settings on the fly, change monitor #1 to be monitor #2, and vice versa.... no problems... not a single one. Try THAT on a 3DLabs card (good luck).

 

[BJR]

the 2070 should be the sharpest too with the highest video bandwidth. 2070 should have a video bandwidth of 370MHz IIRC. That should be enough to support 1600x1200 @ 100Hz without losing quality

This is simply not true - you can throw around specs all day long, but in the end:

The single most important factor in clear text is the quality of the video output filters in your graphics card. I tried ATI, Nvidia, and 3Dlabs VP880Pro ($600 card) and ALL of these cards produced REALLY fuzzy text at 100Hz. I used to have the 2070SB before I returned it.

And NO MATTER WHAT, the text will ALWAYS be blurrier on a 21" monitor than on a 19" monitor, so if you want super sharp text, DON'T purchase a 21" monitor. Most graphics cards were not made to drive the electronics in a 21" monitor.

 

[BJR]

Hmmmm.... now I'm not sure anymore of my "word of God" babbling after I read someone posted that the GDM F500R 21" monitor is sharper than the Mitsubishi 2070SB and they had both monitors side by side. Were they running both monitors off the SAME graphics card?

In my experience I noticed that the DVI-I output (using DVI-VGA adapter) of my Nvidia card is significantly sharper than the VGA analog out when using my 930SB CRT. This I cannot explain. I've heard that the DVI analog ouput is "cleaner" than DB-15, but it could also be that Nvidia's electronics is a bit cleaner on the DVI side of the card. Who knows anymore.


I give up... really I do.

 

[Electricview]

Good info there BJR tho I think i have to dissagree a bit.. if that was the case, why would reviewers who review multimple monitors on one system complain that the MITS has the worst text of all the monitors they test on? That wouldn't make sense that all other monitors look good on that crappy video card but the mits looks crappy on it? i'm not complaining about the text anymore, i've gotten used to it..


oh and i DO have a brightness level equal to almost any 19 inch i've seen now.. you just haev to drive the color channels equally really high.. and then turn the contrast of your video card down, as i posted earily mine are pertty damn bright.. I like it this way.. and its brighter than the sony 17 inch i work with at work.. (its a trinitron).. so it is possible.. If i burn out my tube oh well! 3 year warrant will cover it! (Becuase i aM NOT using a super bright mode.. i just simply wanted to imcrease the colors!)
ANYWAYS.. I think i am going to stick with the mits after the poor showing of the viewsonic granted it was probably the intergrated intel grahpics chip that made it look so bad, after playing with it for a while and seeing that it is blurry on black text when it has the contrast and it gets clear when you dim it, it made me realize i wont ever really get that nice contrast i was used to o nthe old viewsonic without sacrificing text quality, and this monitor actually ahs a pretty damn nice balance between the two once you get used to it.. IF they could stop being so slacked in the QA department i would have no problems with this monitor i think its just those black specs that annoy me and YES i dont see it most of the time.. 95% of the time in fact, but once in a whil when i have a white screen in a game or a movie or whatever, my brian just says LOOK DOWN THERE and then after a secfond i see it.. dont ask me why...

I'm not expecting #5 (really #3 for the 2070sb, the other two were 2141's) to be any better, but i'm giving it ONE LAST CHANE before i make up my mind to stick with this one.. I'm picky but i wont get any better it seems.

 

[yhelothar]

Originally posted by: BJR

the 2070 should be the sharpest too with the highest video bandwidth. 2070 should have a video bandwidth of 370MHz IIRC. That should be enough to support 1600x1200 @ 100Hz without losing quality

This is simply not true - you can throw around specs all day long, but in the end:

The single most important factor in clear text is the quality of the video output filters in your graphics card. I tried ATI, Nvidia, and 3Dlabs VP880Pro ($600 card) and ALL of these cards produced REALLY fuzzy text at 100Hz. I used to have the 2070SB before I returned it.

And NO MATTER WHAT, the text will ALWAYS be blurrier on a 21" monitor than on a 19" monitor, so if you want super sharp text, DON'T purchase a 21" monitor. Most graphics cards were not made to drive the electronics in a 21" monitor.

No, you could buy a 21" monitor and get razor sharp text. Just don't buy an aperture grill. Shadowmasks are generally preferred for graphics design anyways.
BTW, the Dell P1110 I had has the sharpest text out of all the monitors I've tried, just the horizontal lines are awfully blurry, when i have the brightness turned higher than 10, the horizontal lines would split into two distinct lines.

 

[Electricview]

No, you could buy a 21" monitor and get razor sharp text. Just don't buy an aperture grill. Shadowmasks are generally preferred for graphics design anyways.
BTW, the Dell P1110 I had has the sharpest text out of all the monitors I've tried, just the horizontal lines are awfully blurry, when i have the brightness turned higher than 10, the horizontal lines would split into two distinct lines.

Funny, every single artist where i work (ms games) uses AG monitors.. as a matter of fact they use NEC 2111's.. there's hardly a shadowmask to be found in my building alone.. (at least 1000 monitors in there..75% of the employee's have dual monitor setups).

I'm not sure where you get your facts?

 

[Electricview]

well #5 came.. it didnt really have any black pixels, but it did have a black spec of dirt about the same size as the dots, but it was INSIDE the glass.. i think this is the same dirt that is getting on the inside of the screen, its obvious that they have poor manufacturing processes if they cant keep specs of dirt this big out of their monitors.. but oh well i'm sticking with #3.. I swear #5 had some pretty bad convergence on the bottom left hand corner of the screen too, i could almost see the red and blue seperating from the white txt, but of course it was perfect in the middle... I guess i will just stick with #3....

 

[yhelothar]

well #5 came.. it didnt really have any black pixels, but it did have a black spec of dirt about the same size as the dots, but it was INSIDE the glass.. i think this is the same dirt that is getting on the inside of the screen, its obvious that they have poor manufacturing processes if they cant keep specs of dirt this big out of their monitors.. but oh well i'm sticking with #3.. I swear #5 had some pretty bad convergence on the bottom left hand corner of the screen too, i could almost see the red and blue seperating from the white txt, but of course it was perfect in the middle... I guess i will just stick with #3....

Are your monitors refurbs are new? I got replacement #4 for my IBM P275. They were going to send me another oen, but I told them not to, I told them I wanted more to be done than just their crappy refurbs. They escalated me to higher support, damn IBM never calls as promised.

 

[yhelothar]

Originally posted by: Electricview

No, you could buy a 21" monitor and get razor sharp text. Just don't buy an aperture grill. Shadowmasks are generally preferred for graphics design anyways.
BTW, the Dell P1110 I had has the sharpest text out of all the monitors I've tried, just the horizontal lines are awfully blurry, when i have the brightness turned higher than 10, the horizontal lines would split into two distinct lines.

Funny, every single artist where i work (ms games) uses AG monitors.. as a matter of fact they use NEC 2111's.. there's hardly a shadowmask to be found in my building alone.. (at least 1000 monitors in there..75% of the employee's have dual monitor setups).

I'm not sure where you get your facts?

Look at the GRAPHICS series of monitors for different brands, such as Viewsonic and IBM. They are both SHADOWMASK.
Also says on Tomshardware 19" roundup that shadowmasks are preferred for graphics because they have sharper text and truer colors

 

[konakona]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
<blockquote>Quote
Originally posted by: Electricview
<blockquote>Quote

No, you could buy a 21" monitor and get razor sharp text. Just don't buy an aperture grill. Shadowmasks are generally preferred for graphics design anyways.
BTW, the Dell P1110 I had has the sharpest text out of all the monitors I've tried, just the horizontal lines are awfully blurry, when i have the brightness turned higher than 10, the horizontal lines would split into two distinct lines.

Funny, every single artist where i work (ms games) uses AG monitors.. as a matter of fact they use NEC 2111's.. there's hardly a shadowmask to be found in my building alone.. (at least 1000 monitors in there..75% of the employee's have dual monitor setups).

I'm not sure where you get your facts?[/quote]

Look at the GRAPHICS series of monitors for different brands, such as Viewsonic and IBM. They are both SHADOWMASK.
Also says on Tomshardware 19" roundup that shadowmasks are preferred for graphics because they have sharper text and truer colors[/quote]

i thought the best models from iiyama and dodoku are AG based.... plus tomshardware is suck

 

[yhelothar]

Best models does not mean they are geared for graphics design. What I was saying is the models geared for graphic design uses shadowmask.
I have used both extensively, and I can clearly see why monitors geared for graphic design are shadowmasks.
Shadowmasks are still the sharpest and have the truest colors. AG have the most vibrant colors and the best contrast.

Electricview: You said yourself that your AG monitors are blurry, and you are still doubting me when I say shadowmasks are sharper.

VanillaH, check the dates before you reply, you brought a 3 month old thread back from the dead..

 

[konakona]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Best models does not mean they are geared for graphics design. What I was saying is the models geared for graphic design uses shadowmask.
I have used both extensively, and I can clearly see why monitors geared for graphic design are shadowmasks.
Shadowmasks are still the sharpest and have the truest colors. AG have the most vibrant colors and the best contrast.

Electricview: You said yourself that your AG monitors are blurry, and you are still doubting me when I say shadowmasks are sharper.

VanillaH, check the dates before you reply, you brought a 3 month old thread back from the dead..

hey gravedigging is fun
i am still inclined to think you have had some extremely bad luck with AG monitors you tried. otherwise we must be focusing on different areas when we scrutinize a monitor, its good to have varying opinions

 

[yhelothar]

To duplicate the same problem on 6, count S I X different monitors, I think it's a problem with AG and not my luck.
On top of that, when I called the techs at IBM about my monitor, one tech reported to see the same thing and filed the problem as a common issue.