(NECRO) CA residents, are you annoyed with the ”no grocery bags” policy yet?

[pmv]

Car culture is here to stay in North America. We can mitigate it a bit but bottom line is the infrastructures are just car centric. Best you can hope for is cleaner cars.

Well yeah, that's probably true. But over here I've seen that car culture grow hugely during my own lifetime and I don't regard it as irreversible.

 

[Jaskalas]

http://www.statisticbrain.com/plastic-bag-statistics/

Guess the Greens shouldn't have gone after paper bags, if they didn't want tons upon tons of plastic in the ocean.

 

[mikeymikec]

There certainly is a peculiar focus on shopping bags over-and-above far more important topics. And that's in good part because the Mail has a bit of a thing about them because its a pet cause of its editor. And its also because going on about them doesn't cost much for those doing so. Whereas giving up their car might, so they don't talk about that so much.

If the Daily Mail was used as any sort of indicator of the way that a country is, then its equivalent in every country would be pretty damning.

If the UK turned into a 1984-style state, the Daily Mail would hardly have to alter its angle, as it pretty much hates anything and anyone that doesn't represent its views.

Yup - and the problem is that studies show most people don't reuse the reusable bags enough to make it a net gain. You'd have to use one such bag for an entire year before there was any benefit. Me, I like my (enormous!) rucksack, but I have couple of them and I fear even if I use them instead of plastic bags for a lifetime the net environmental benefit will be pretty small. Certainly compared to the gain from not driving.

Not an entire year? It's not as if I'm making an extraordinary effort to make mine last, but there are some in our collection that are probably five years old by now.

Well the trouble is we have a society focussed overwhelmingly around the car. That's a far bigger problem than the use of carrier bags. Its gotten noticeably worse over my lifetime.

The car-lobby does everything it can to make it as hard as possible for anyone to manage without a car. Granted its increasingly difficult to avoid driving (its a form of "tyranny of the majority", really). But everyone who drives is, to some degree or other, part of the problem. Ergo I get a bit irked at being lectured about my occasional use of a carrier bag by people who keep their reusable bags in the car. I'm certainly not saying people _must_ use carrier bags - just that they don't make a big song-and-dance about not doing so.

You wouldn't have known that I use re-usable bags until there was a thread about them when some guy whines that he has to recycle something more than once.

As for cars, I've already mentioned on this thread that I find it unbelievable how humanity has been so short-sighted with regard to researching alternatives to the mainstream combustion engine.

Just avoid one 8 mile car journey (and are _all_ your car journeys really totally essential?) and you've made up for using carrier bags for an entire year.

My job (self-employed on-site computer fixer) would be kind of difficult without one. I make my car journeys as efficient as possible. I walk to appointments where/when it is practical. I avoid quite a few unnecessary journeys. Is it OK for us to get back on topic now?

 

[Craig234]

Guess the Greens shouldn't have gone after paper bags, if they didn't want tons upon tons of plastic in the ocean.

How ignorant is that?

Greens are behind plastic bags? Your proof?

 

[bigpimpatl]

how much do the bags cost (typically)

 

[Craig234]

how much do the bags cost (typically)

Ten cents.

 

[SSSnail]

Sssnail ca afford to live in LA, but cannot afford an enviromental surchage on shopping plastic bag. He is so cheap he is even resorting to insulting mothers.

Actually, I was complimenting your mother, because as cheap as that bag was, I actually PAID for her. So, you should be proud. And it was only your mom that I paid, so "mothers" in your sentence is technically incorrect. /ruffles

 

[SSSnail]

To separate the discussions.

Some of you are too focused on the "driving to the market" part, you forgot the "walking around to ANY STORES to buy things" part, and that's where the problems are.

Before, you'd only have to deal with the plastic bags. Now, you'll have to deal with the plastic bags, PLUS a plethora of other reusable bags that they're selling you, along with their own environmental impact issues. It's not really for the environment, is it? Like I said, libruls never think things through.

I probably recycle more than most in this thread. I even compost.

I even pick up other assholes' trash when I'm about on the beach, because I care.

But, when some assholes force me to be inconvenient because of their lies, I do have problems with. I bet if you follow the money, some assholes are getting paid handsomely for this "initiative".

 

[HeXen]

Oh my! Look at the picture of the healthy-looking bovine trying to get to the FOOD inside the plastic bag! It's going to DIE from the plastic!​

No.​

Look at all that nasty trash!

Fix the littering problem.

Seriously... Does the author of the article expect me to see that picture and believe the cow is eating THE BAG?


That actually is quite a stretch to believe. The reason: They do break down. Hell! Some plastic grocery bags can't even hold together from the grocery store to my car.

When plastic grocery bags are exposed to heat and UV from the sun, wind, rain, and other elements...they break up very quickly. You don't see shopping bags from the 90s because they deteriorated into tiny pieces you would never recognize. They did this very rapidly. People saying it takes "hundreds of years" are talking about how long it takes for the particles to change chemically and become something that's no longer plastic...something that's probably no less harmful and no more harmful than plastic. That's a BS statistic. The statement above implies that the plastic remains the the form of a grocery bag for hundreds of years. That is absolute bullshit.



Do you know why these stats are so far apart? It's because both statistics originated from people's assholes.

I want facts. I want a first-hand account from a person that examined numerous dead animals and determined that they were killed by the ingested grocery bags. I have no doubt that some animals have died from it, some animals have died from eating a stick. I do have a hard time believing that there are large numbers of casualties. I believe it would be quite difficult to find one. By contrast, it's very easy to find animals that were killed by flying into windows or getting hit by vehicles. I see them all the time first-hand.

Control the litter. That is the solution to this "problem."

Like I care what you believe, show some proof otherwise or get out.

 

[zoiks]

Nopes. Don't care. Better to carry your own bags. If you forget one, pony up the 10c.

 

[OBLAMA2009]

i read that one of the unintended consequences of the no bag laws is that it makes it easier for dudes to steel sheet. sure enough, a couple weeks ago i was in the grocery and i saw a dude load a cart full of stuff, including beer, into some bags he had brought in and then walk out

 

[IGBT]

it's the california eco-KOOK psychosis. It's only going to get worse. Elections have consequences.

 

[Anonemous]

i read that one of the unintended consequences of the no bag laws is that it makes it easier for dudes to steel sheet. sure enough, a couple weeks ago i was in the grocery and i saw a dude load a cart full of stuff, including beer, into some bags he had brought in and then walk out

It's also easier to lose shit as well. Since everything is not bagged or Costco-sized it's easy to forget stuff that are not bagged and just jumbling around in the cart/at check out.

 

[Craig234]

i read that one of the unintended consequences of the no bag laws is that it makes it easier for dudes to steel sheet. sure enough, a couple weeks ago i was in the grocery and i saw a dude load a cart full of stuff, including beer, into some bags he had brought in and then walk out

That is bad, but he can also get arrested.

 

[Craig234]

it's the california eco-KOOK psychosis. It's only going to get worse. Elections have consequences.

No, you're a plain old KOOK.

But elections do have consequences, thank goodness you lose them.

 

[rh71]

Wow this would be horrible for us. We re-use those shopping bags as garbage bags everyday. We got a trash can from Bed Bath that's exactly the size of a shopping bag.

My wife comes home with about 15-20 bags of groceries every Saturday morning. Carrying around that many re-useable sacks... I have to laugh.

 

[bigpimpatl]

Ten cents.

lol people getting worked over ten cents.

But forget that, from an economist POV I support this measure. Plastic bags aren't free to make. Their cost should be accurately reflected (i.e. transparent). Of course we can all debate about what that cost is, but a factory in china (or wherever) used inputs and labor to make that bag. It has a cost.

If you don't agree with ten cents, you can still get those 50 packs of plastic bags for a few bucks.

 

[Fingolfin269]

We always take reusable bags to the super market. No big deal.

 

[tynopik]

But forget that, from an economist POV I support this measure. Plastic bags aren't free to make. Their cost should be accurately reflected (i.e. transparent). Of course we can all debate about what that cost is, but a factory in china (or wherever) used inputs and labor to make that bag. It has a cost.

That's the stupidest reason to charge for bags. Have you ever heard of billing cost? Each time you charge for something it costs you money. For such minor costs (bags cost less than a penny each), it's not worth the time/cost to bill them. It's cheaper to just roll it into the 'cost of doing business'

perhaps they should charge you each time you use a cart because that has a cost too?

and they should charge you for each time you open a freezer door because that has a cost too

using a coupon? that's extra time and effort to process

shouldn't that cost be accurately reflected (i.e. transparent) too?

 

[bigpimpatl]

That's the stupidest reason to charge for bags. Have you ever heard of billing cost? Each time you charge for something it costs you money. For such minor costs (bags cost less than a penny each), it's not worth the time/cost to bill them. It's cheaper to just roll it into the 'cost of doing business'

perhaps they should charge you each time you use a cart because that has a cost too?

and they should charge you for each time you open a freezer door because that has a cost too

using a coupon? that's extra time and effort to process

shouldn't that cost be accurately reflected (i.e. transparent) too?

You clearly missed the point.

There is a real debate on what the impact plastic bags have beyond your wallet. If you think that the impact is minimal then just say that, but to roll it up into one thing called "cost of doing business" we will never find out what that impact is.

I'm not interested in the rest of your specious argument. A cart and freezer door? GTFO.

I will agree with you on coupons though.

 

[Craig234]

lol people getting worked over ten cents.

But forget that, from an economist POV I support this measure. Plastic bags aren't free to make. Their cost should be accurately reflected (i.e. transparent). Of course we can all debate about what that cost is, but a factory in china (or wherever) used inputs and labor to make that bag. It has a cost.

If you don't agree with ten cents, you can still get those 50 packs of plastic bags for a few bucks.

The ten cents isn't to charge for the cost to manufacture the bag. It's to incent people to use them less, adding some of the cost of the harm they do.

Also, I'm not sure what you meant by 'i.e. transparent'. The part of the cost of the bag the story pays for them is always reflected in the produt prices anyway.

The cost of the plastic bags is under one cent each I suspect, so it'd be hard to charge directly for that. The problem was the store and customer not paying environmental cost.

 

[bigpimpatl]

The problem was the store and customer not paying environmental cost.

that's exactly what I meant I was probably not clear in that post but the subsequent was clearer. But we don't have to limit it to just the environmental cost. What about the inputs and labor. Is there another, more efficient use of those instead of plastic bags? for example.

 

[tynopik]

There is a real debate on what the impact plastic bags have beyond your wallet.

perhaps, but that's not what your argument was:

Plastic bags aren't free to make. Their cost should be accurately reflected (i.e. transparent)

your argument was strictly about the cost of the bags and that's what I was addressing

 

[tynopik]

that's exactly what I meant I was probably not clear in that post but the subsequent was clearer.

so you want to include the environmental cost? ok
1) first you have to propose how you would calculate such a thing
2) justify why you're singling out plastic bags as opposed to LITERALLY EVERY PRODUCT OUT THERE

every product has an environmental cost, shouldn't we add an appropriate charge to everything?

But we don't have to limit it to just the environmental cost.
What about the inputs and labor. Is there another, more efficient use of those instead of plastic bags? for example.

I let capitalism worry about that

 

[Ichinisan]

Total number of plastic bags used worldwide annually 1 trillion

Total number of plastic bags China consumes everyday 3 billion

Total number of plastic bags used every minute 1 million

Total number of years it takes for a plastic bag to degrade 1,000 years

Total amount of plastic bags that were discarded in 2008 3.5 million tons

Total amount of plastic floating in every square mile of ocean 46,000 pieces

Average amount of plastic bags consumed per family in 4 trips to the grocery store 60

Percent of plastic made every year that will end up in the ocean 10%

Total amount of plastic bags used by U.S. citizens every year 100 billion

Average amount of plastic bottles a U.S. household will use each year 500 plastic bottles

http://www.statisticbrain.com/plastic-bag-statistics/

Guess the Greens shouldn't have gone after paper bags, if they didn't want tons upon tons of plastic in the ocean.

How ignorant is that?

Greens are behind plastic bags? Your proof?

I guess you didn't know: We've actually come full circle in this paper-vs-plastic "which one is more environmentally friendly" thing. I remember in the late '80s or early '90s, as the majority of retailers were transitioning from paper bags to plastic, they often gave you a choice: "Paper or plastic?"

For many years, the printing on the plastic bags extolled the environmental virtues of recyclable plastic bags and how many trees you save by using them. Now some think paper is the environmentally friendly choice...