NECRO plugging computers into ungrounded outlet - what's the worst that could happen?

[natto fire]

Yup, let's use some random pipes as ground. Of course, in case the problem turns out to be serious, this can put lethal potential on the pipes in everybody else's apartments, but fuck those guys. That'll teach 'em!

Actually it was stated to use a cold water supply pipe. Which is buried in earth and is bonded to the panel in millions of homes everywhere (and allowed by NEC). Much less resistance to ground than pretty much any scenario someone grabbing random pipes in a DUPLEX is going to create.

I know it is a good idea to cover your ass when giving out advice about something so potentially deadly, but trying to scare someone and misconstruing what another said doesn't help either.

 

[Jeff7]

One problem I've read about with using pipes for grounding is if you've got a wiring problem that's pushing some amount of 120VAC onto the pipe - then if you've got plumbing problems and you or a plumber starts working on that pipe, someone may find a very unwelcome surprise of line voltage where it shouldn't be.


But if that method is truly compliant with NEC code...

 

[vshah]

i think i'm just going to stick a gfci adapter on and call it a day.

 

[Modelworks]

One problem I've read about with using pipes for grounding is if you've got a wiring problem that's pushing some amount of 120VAC onto the pipe - then if you've got plumbing problems and you or a plumber starts working on that pipe, someone may find a very unwelcome surprise of line voltage where it shouldn't be.


But if that method is truly compliant with NEC code...

Using a pipe for ground is the ground point of last resort. Water piping is frowned upon because repairs to the plumbing might use a plastic part, or have other connections inserted that reduce the conductivity. Corrosion can also increase in speed when pipes are used for grounding. Then there is the possibility of them coming loose from freezing and thawing making poor contact with the ground. The reason they were used is because when grounding of homes started it was a convenient point for grounding, years later we learned and have moved on to using ground rods specifically for the electrical panel.

 

[edro]

Overall don't worry about it. Appliances have existed for decades without grounds and people didn't start dying left and right because of it. The NEC is very easily swayed even when am idiot does something like put a knife in a wall receptacle. Grounding is used now as a precaution of what could happen, not of what is likely to happen.

If this were a wet area I would be concerned, but unless you bathe with the pc, I wouldn't worry.

OMFG! Finally... someone with some sense.

Everyone is so quick to say "Burn the house to the ground, rebuild with new wiring!"

 

[Red Squirrel]

Yup, let's use some random pipes as ground. Of course, in case the problem turns out to be serious, this can put lethal potential on the pipes in everybody else's apartments, but fuck those guys. That'll teach 'em!

Obviously you don't just use random pipes. You scope out which pipe goes to earth, and use that one. And this scenario only works if there happens to be plumbing nearby, given it's an apartment and you can't run new wire.

Code actually states to use grounding rods AND water pipes as ground. The gas line should also be bonded, but NOT used as the primary ground.

In an apartment situation what I'd probably do is run a thick 12 awg extension cords around from a place that has ground to either provide power or just ground. The main thing with lack of ground is the fact that surge suppressors become completely useless.

 

[Ketchup]

I believe the risk of something bad happening because you don't have a proper ground is far less than the risk of catastrophe from using a water pipe as a ground.

 

[westom]

Replace the two prong outlet with a GFCI receptacle. ...and it is to code for existing wiring. Don't forget to put the little sticker on the wallplate stating "No Equipment Ground"

Anyone making a recommendation should know what Kaervak has posted. Those are the OP's only two alternatives - as defined by the NEC for human safety.

A receptacle ground is a safety (equipment) ground. It is not earth ground.

A GFCI tester would only report what the APC defect light has already reported. That GFCI tester and APC defect light can report some defects. Neither can report wiring as good.

An APC defect light will remain on even with a GFCI installed. The GFCI provides human safety that currently does not exist. An APC will provide the same inferior hardware protection with or without any NEC (human protection) solution. Again, that is a safety ground; not an earth ground.

Anyone recommending a connection to water pipes should not be making electrical recommendations. oynaz has rightly expressed what that recommendation can do. Grounding to pipes is obviously an unsafe recommendation as well as a code violation. Safety ground wires must connect back to a breaker box bus bar.

The OP has decided to do an acceptable and safe solution. His only alternative if a safety (equipment) ground wire does not already exist.

 

[JimmiG]

Most apartments here in Sweden only have grounded outlets in the kitchen. Ironically, the only thing that has ever caught fire in my home is my electric stove (the actual wiring inside it, not something left on the hotplate).

 

[westom]

Code actually states to use grounding rods AND water pipes as ground. The gas line should also be bonded, but NOT used as the primary ground.

That is still acceptable in Canada. And is a major human safety threat in the States. Doing nothing (as Modelworks described) is better than grounding to water pipes as described. Even measuring a pipe to ground is insufficient. That conductivity is only sufficient when confirmed by visual inspection.

Bonding a gas line can be defined by local gas companies. Some want it. Others demand it not exist.

 

[Red Squirrel]

That is still acceptable in Canada. And is a major human safety threat in the States. Doing nothing (as Modelworks described) is better than grounding to water pipes as described. Even measuring a pipe to ground is insufficient. That conductivity is only sufficient when confirmed by visual inspection.

Bonding a gas line can be defined by local gas companies. Some want it. Others demand it not exist.

Have to also remember that there should never be any current that goes to ground in first place. If there is, either a GFCI will trip if the circuit at fault is protected, or even a breaker will trip, if it's a dead short. It takes two seconds to put a clamp on meter over a pipe before doing work on it such as changing a meter, pressure regulator, etc... The ground should never really be "needed" but when a situation happens where it is needed (such as lightning strike) then it will be a life saver.

For general safety a GFCI is fine, but for equipment protection, you need ground. Surge protectors are only as good as their ground.

 

[westom]

For general safety a GFCI is fine, but for equipment protection, you need ground. Surge protectors are only as good as their ground.

The safety ground is not an earth ground. Safety ground (also called equipment ground) exists to remove electricity from appliances before you touch them. And to disconnect from short circuits before a fire is created. In every case, for human safety.

Surge protectors need an electrically different ground - earth ground. Safety ground is not earth ground for a long list of technical reasons. The code is even quite specific about the difference. The power strip (with or without protectors) requires a safety ground (or GFCI) for human safety. Equipment protection is another completely different and irrelevant topic. Since all appliances will operate without hardware damage on any two or three wire circuits. Safety ground does almost nothing for equipment protection.

This discussion about wall receptacle safety ground is only about human safety issues. The OP’s newly install GFCI solves his relevant concerns.

 

[jes327]

When looking at potential places to live I always bring my outlet tester to test a few electrical outlets for proper wiring and ground.

 

[westom]

Safety ground is about shorting a connection (fault) to utility AC hot wires so that a circuit breaker will trip - to disconnect utility AC power - to protect human life.

Static electricity is charges in a human body connected to charges found beneath feet. A connection maybe down an arm, destructively though electronics, then through a conductive material such as a table, into the floor and to charges beneath the feet. That potentially destructive connection exists with or without safety ground.

Static electricity is eliminated by connecting a wrist strap to that table. Or better, connected to an anti-static mat on floor beneath feet.

Safety ground (to protect from utility AC electric faults) is completely unrelated to static electricity (to protect from static charges found in a body and beneath feet). Safety ground is about tripping a breaker to protect human life. Anti-static (wrist) strap is about connecting charges in a human body to other static charges in the floor.

A missing safety ground does not damage electronics. A tingle felt when a safety ground is missing is not static electricity. That tingle is leakage of utility AC electricity.

Safety ground must be very conductive - ie 1 ohm or less - to protect human life from utility AC electricity. Anti-static wrist straps are extremely unconductive (ie contain a 1 Megohm resistor) so that AC electricity does not flow through that wrist strap (and kill the human). Another reason why safety ground and anti-static protection are completely different. Safety ground is lowest resistance. Anti-static protection is highest resistance.

Semiconductors, as individual parts, may be damaged by less than 100 volts. So those are in anti-static bags. Same semiconductors can withstand 2000 and 15,000 volts (static electricity) without damage when part of a system - with or without a safety ground and without any anti-static bags.

Anti-static protection and safety ground are about two completely different and unrelated electric currents. Static electricity can damage individual hardware parts. Safety ground is about protecting human life; does not protecting hardware.

Meanwhile, a three light outlet tester can only report some (the worst) safety ground defects. It cannot report safety ground is good. Safety ground does not protect appliances.

 

[renz20003]

Un-grounded outlets don't cause problems for computers. What causes problems is static electricity caused by ungrounded outlets! Static electricity builds-up inside computers when the outlet being used is not grounded. Most of you have heard of anti-static bags for computer components? Static electricity can be a computer's worst enemy. It causes havoc or malfunctions and will eventually cause components or circuit boards to fail. Static electricity if the electrical outlet isn't grounded will build-up inside a computer and over time, will damage the power supply and motherboard. Sometimes light popping sounds can be heard at times coming from a computer that isn't grounded or plugged-into a grounded outlet. The light popping sound is often static electricity discharging inside the computer case! Other times you might feel a slight tingling if you lean your arm lightly against your computer if the case is made of metal. When it comes to computers and TVs - never assume the electrical outlet you're using or want to use is grounded even if the outlet has a third prong! Sometimes three-prong outlets aren't wired correctly. Other times a landlord, property owner or someone will install three-prong outlets to replace two prong outlets and when they discover some of the outlets don't have a ground wire the problem might be ignored because of costs involved to remedy the situation! It happened to me with one landlord I rented a house from. As it turned-out half of the electrical outlets in the house and all the outlets outside were not grounded! Within a year of living in that house not knowing the situation I had to replace a power supply on my PC and later the motherboard before finally discovering the electrical outlet I was using was not grounded! I had heard light popping sounds coming from my PC one day. I thought it was normal or might be dust inside the power supply so I didn't anything. Then about a week later I noticed the ground indicator light was not lit on my surge-protected power supply strip! I then took out my electrical outlet tester and found the outlet wasn't grounded! In fact, half the outlets in the house were not grounded including the two outlets outside on my patio! As soon as I relocated my computer equipment to use what I knew was a grounded outlet I no longer heard occasional light popping sounds nor felt a tingling sensation when leaning my arm against the computer case. It's been six years now since I had switched to a grounded outlet for my computer equipment and haven't had any PC problems since! Be sure to test the outlets in your home for proper ground before plugging any TV's, computers or other expensive electronic devices in. This may save you from expensive repairs down the road. You can purchase an inexpensive outlet tester from your local hardware store. They are simple to use or you can have someone else test the outlet(s) for you.

I suspected my PSU failed from having it plugged into an ungrounded outlet. Fried the HDD and MOBO too...

 

[jes327]

I leased or lived-in a duplex in FL once where my PC died shortly after moving-in. The problem was the motherboard which I replaced having purchased another from Dell and was all set. However, a month or so later I noticed tingling in my arm one day when the bottom of my arm touched the top of the PC. The PC was a Dell XPS-410 that has a mostly metal computer case. I looked into the "tingling" further and noticed I could also hear what sounded like light popping sounds coming from inside my computer every 10 seconds or so! With this I knew something wasn't right. It sounded like static discharge so I checked the surge-protected power strip and found the ground LED wasn't lit. I then purchased a small electrical outlet tester and found the three-prong outlet showed "un-grounded" as well. I then tested the rest of the outlets in the house (all three prong outlets) and went to my landlord after discovering nearly half the outlets in the house were un-grounded. I reasoned with him mentioning everything I found regarding my PC including the new motherboard I recently needed to purchase. My landlord finally grudgingly gave-in and wrote me a check to cover what I had paid. I couldn't take all the money, it was over $200, so I gave half of it back to my landlord. We became friends after that and have been friends now for like seven years even though I moved back to New Hampshire after five. The first thing I do now when looking at potential places to live is I test some of the electrical outlets for ground! It's a smart thing to do. Some of you that don't want to believe computers can be damaged by ungrounded outlets? You are dummies! Ask yourselves why new or even used PC components are packaged in anti-static bags! Ask yourselves why computer techs wear ground straps on their wrists when working on PCs! If static electricity can damage computer components what do you think it can do when static electricity builds-up inside a PC and has no-where to go because the electrical outlet is ungrounded? By the way - PC cooling fans sometimes cause static electricity especially if the air where you live is very dry or has low humidity. Plugging a PC into an ungrounded outlet in such an environment? Don't set the computer down on a carpeted floor, especially a shag or you'd likely be needing a computer repair if not a fire truck in a matter of hours or days (in my snooty, totally unprofessional opinion) LOL

 

[VirtualLarry]

Interesting. I did some computer work for a woman, that after I did the work, I booted it up, and walked across the room to pick up the case cover, and it was booting, and I put the case cover on, and ZAP! Computer shuts down. I postulated later that her outlets weren't grounded properly, because any static that built up, should have dissipated through the chassis ground, which is bolted to the PSU's outer shell, which is wired to the ground pin on the plug.

She then told me, yeah, it does that all the time, when I walk across the carpet and sit down at the PC.

She also had a "flame-out" on her PSU, where it apparently caught fire inside (but it was UL-listed!), didn't cause any other damage other than some smoke damage to her curtains.

Now, upon reading this thread, I'm pretty-much certain, that the fault was the lack of grounding in her outlets, and static build-up, rather than anything I did. (I've never had another customer report that sort of thing, ever.)

 

[jes327]

Oh I missed that part.

In that case, just make a bunch of these for each appliance point and plug the power bar into it:

Can also do something cleaner, and go something like this but with the first outlet a GFCI and a 2 prong cord.

Use 14 or 12 awg cabling that way you know you can run the circuit's capacity through it safely.

Keep in mind though that surge suppression is useless without ground, so if you can find a way to run a ground that's even better.

Using a GFCI outlet like the one shown is fine, I would think, "if" the computer is turned-off, but if the computer is running and the GFCI trips - that can damage a computer especially the hard drive. I think GFCI outlets leave computers more at risk of being damaged than plugging computers into ungrounded outlets. If I had no choice, but to plug my PC into an ungrounded outlet I would consider buying and plugging my PC into a cheap, used battery back-up like an APC and plug the APC into the ungrounded outlet using one of those grey three prong to two prong adapters. It might start a fire, but my PC might not be affected? LOL

 

[ctbaars]

First thing we did when moving into a old house was change the outlets from 2-prong to 3-prong and checked all the grounds. Don't ask if it's okay not to have a ground. Just get it done!
oohh . Double Necro . Still. Good advice IMO.

 

[Herr Kutz]

Almost every outlet in my rental is ungrounded with the exception of the ones in the kitchen and one in my bedroom.

I don’t even have an exterior breaker box; it’s a fuse panel!

 

[Red Squirrel]

Using a GFCI outlet like the one shown is fine, I would think, "if" the computer is turned-off, but if the computer is running and the GFCI trips - that can damage a computer especially the hard drive. I think GFCI outlets leave computers more at risk of being damaged than plugging computers into ungrounded outlets. If I had no choice, but to plug my PC into an ungrounded outlet I would consider buying and plugging my PC into a cheap, used battery back-up like an APC and plug the APC into the ungrounded outlet using one of those grey three prong to two prong adapters. It might start a fire, but my PC might not be affected? LOL

You would want to plug the UPS into this outlet, and not the other way around, that way you'd be fine even if it trips. Only thing, because there is no proper ground the surge protection part of the UPS won't be very effective.